Right To Life Historic Measure (that includes protection of every person from the time of fertilizat

Life throws curve balls - -

Boy you're not just whistlin' dixie! I was in a coma myself. When I woke up, the air force insurance rep was in my hospital room, apparently he had been trying to talk my husband into having the machines shut off! But erm, i wasn't dead! (well technically, i was dead. it was a lazarus type of thing.) Machines kept my body from going rigor mortis. brain was a shut off except for one little signal. they said if i woke up, i'd be a vegetable or at the very least, parallyzed on my left side. i had no pain response or reflex response on the left side at all. total life support. and since then i've found out it was gulf war syndrome, i've had breast cancer, a full masectomy, chemotherapy. life has been full of so many curve balls, i've lost count of most of them. i wanna know who's funny idea it was in the first place! i can't imagine one person have so many things go wrong, but i suppose it's fun to kick someone when they're already down!

but i'm a survivor. made out of some substance even i'm not familar with, i guess!

post above, i think ^

Lets just take a few things into consideration.

Many low income citizens often have multiple children they cannot afford, Now one can argue that they should just stop doing the deed and its all good, however what they do isn't my business, What is my business however is when they have these children they cannot afford and my tax dollars go to them...

Another issue is youth, Now these youth that have babies young again are going to be at the very least held back many years on their educations, and thus will fall into the welfare system at least for 1/3 of their life, and also be unable to contribute to society in there situation...

Both of these are already issues for those who decide to go ahead with having a child they cannot afford, Can we imagine the welfare state if they were all FORCED to have them?

Can we imagine the overpopulation here... not only that but drain on the welfare system and our economy..

Imagine those who opt not to have children, and go on to live productive lives, Now imagine those who have them before they are ready...


Now who has the right to force there ideas or opinions on others through law?

Abortions need to be looked upon, We need to find a middle ground here, where one who chooses not to have a child has a brief period of time they be allowed to terminate...

Also those who advocate no abortions, Since you think its your right to force your morals upon those who do not want to bring a child they cant and by all means shouldn't be having, Do you deem it fair that since you care so much about life that you take that life into your home?

Or would you rather it be born into a world with a mother who didn't want it, cant afford it and shouldn't have had it?

A fetus is an empty soul, It doesn't know right from wrong, It has no conscience, Its senses are deprived, It knows nothing, It doesn't know its alive and it wont know its dead.

Do you pro lifers also advocate banning ovulation and ejaculation?

God you think abortion is bad, You must find it hard to sleep at night knowing some kid is committing genocide by the millions on a daily basis in the privacy of his own home..

[edit on 1-6-2008 by C0le]

Yep - when you really experience life's curve balls - - you learn to appreciate life and ignore the petty stuff.

My kid just gets back up on her feet - - with a smile - - and keeps going.

We are Spiritual/Metaphysical - - and believe what you take from this life - - is not the experience - - but how you handle it.

The only thing you can take with you to the next dimension (if you want to move up the rungs on the ladder) is - Love and Integrity.

I have never understood that Christians say they believe in "Life Eternal" - yet most seem to fear physical death. It seems very contradictory to me.

reply to post by Annee


well i've done the death thing and the number 1 fear (speaking in public).
not sure on the death thing since i was already sleeping when it happened.
but the pubilc speaking thing isn't as hard as some people think. i'm a christian, btw. i remember one time having an hour long conversation with a guy who was rabidly anti-anything-to-do-with-jesus so during the course of the conversation i talked to him in paraphrased bible verse. he had no idea it was based entirely on biblical concepts but he was pretty much in agreement with it. when i told him it was paraphrased bible passages, he was really mad. he accused me of being a hindu because no way would a christian be willing to paraphrase bible passages. hehehe ahh yes, life is interesting. most of it is based on perception and the extreme limitations of being unable to be in more than one location at the same time.

[edit on 1-6-2008 by undo]

reply to post by C0le


This is one of the best posts I have read in this thread, and I agree 100% with everything you stated. Star to you and thank you for such a informative and concise opinion.

And lets just say i'm a genocide machine when put in perspective, haha, but all joking aside, a very valid point.

If we force morals upon others who are unable to care for the child, feed it, clothe it.. would you rather have a child that is not wanted by its mother and starves to death, or gets beaten to death? Instead of this all being avoided and at least it "dies" in peace. I do not think a fetus less then a few months old is self aware, so I use the term die loosely.

As for us people who actually are careful about sex, use contriceptives, and dont have children we cant afford.. if we were to ban abortion outright, we would be the ones who suffer. We would be paying outrageous tax dollars as aid before to support unwanted children... Welfare would be through the roof, and there would be many more young mothers who are unable to escape from the cycle of poverty due to a mistake made at a young age and a new law that states she has no choice in the matter...

As much as I am against abortion, it is needed, sadly.

[edit on 1-6-2008 by deadline527]

I do not think they are very 'conscious' or aware of anything until at least a couple months after birth. Just my own personal perspective.

I think 24weeks is a generous as hell 'max' to give the 'right to life' crowd. There is no self-aware spiritual being that is enduring suffering here

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by Annee

 

well i've done the death thing and the number 1 fear (speaking in public).
not sure on the death thing since i was already sleeping when it happened.
but the pubilc speaking thing isn't as hard as some people think. i'm a christian, btw. i remember one time having an hour long conversation with a guy who was rabidly anti-anything-to-do-with-jesus so during the course of the conversation i talked to him in paraphrased bible verse. he had no idea it was based entirely on biblical concepts but he was pretty much in agreement with it. when i told him it was paraphrased bible passages, he was really mad. he accused me of being a hindu because no way would a christian be willing to paraphrase bible passages. hehehe ahh yes, life is interesting. most of it is based on perception and the extreme limitations of being unable to be in more than one location at the same time.

[edit on 1-6-2008 by undo]

Getting off topic - just wanted to say - its not that I don't believe there was a Jesus - I just believe differently. There are truly those heart felt Christians who "get it" and walk in His footsteps (which I believe you are). They know His message of taking care of the poor - the meek - the invalid - etc.

Unfortunately - - Today's Modern Fundamental Christians are about two things - Abortion & Gays. And they come from a heart of hate. They have lost their way. In my opinion.

I'm amazed that we are having a conversation about abortion on this forum. I can't believe that people who are intelligent enough to see the government for what it is are so blinded by their own hatred, but here it is. Of course, people are generally dogmatic in their thinking, which is why it is impossible for most of them to see any side other than their own. However, with education comes tolerance.

If you believe that abortion is wrong, you probably also believe that your god will judge those who do something that is wrong. Therefore, where is your fight in all of this? Why is it your concern? First, the child is not important to you. What seems to be important is forcing your beliefs onto others. Second, the point that you're making is lost because, as has already been stated, a child is no more alive than the tumor that you might have removed if you had cancer. Third, who would keep these children? Who would take care of them? We have so many children homeless, in foster care, and living in deplorable situations. You would bring more of them into the world??? And if you believe that we are in the "end times," as so many Christians seem to believe, then why would you want to bring more children into that??? Let them go back to heaven peacefully, rather than have to live through the hell that they will face here.

Take care of yourselves and your own children. Teach your children your values, but try teaching them to tolerate the views and opinions of others at the same time.

Originally posted by Reverend SamuelTophatJack
reply to post by Rilence

 

"IMHO abortion should be perfectly legal for any foetus younger than 24 weeks... "

So how doyou or any evil black magic dr have a right to say below 24 weeks there is no humanity? so magic a poof whoosh boom at 24 weeks and 1 second over then it is a human
SURERIGHT its murder at if you uise the morning after pill at conception

So rev when are you going to do something about all those naturally aborted foetuses. All those women who think they missed a period or two only to have a very heavy one. A hell of lot of those are naturally aborted by the human body becaue it's not viable. Presumably that is impossible if god gives them souls at conception.......

Originally posted by Rilence
If a significant majority of the populace agrees that a particular action is deemed "Wrong" and should be legislated against, then fine...Go ahead...
Cases in point include murder, assault, rape and so on...

In accordance with the Constitution (disregarding the fact that the government has already been violating it for quite a few decades), all of your examples point out the one & only limitation that applies to any of our Natural Rights...You cannot exercise your Rights in a way that violates the Rights of other people! That's how all crimes should be defined, as committing an offense against Natural Rights.
In the case of the Church seeking to enforce "Right to Life" by government legislation, it violates the Rights of the pregnant mother to decide for herself.

If America was a true Democracy, then we live under "mob rule," where one person with a good PR campaign can sway 51% of the population to vote away the Rights of the other 49%...And that's how Hitler gained power in a German Democracy. But no, the Constitution demands a republic form of government in Article 4, Section 4...Which means that even the People do not have the ability to vote away our own Rights because the Legislative Branch cannot be swayed by public opinion to "abridge" any Rights (as stated in 1st Amendment).

Originally posted by undo
i don't think they should make it mandatory, just create a push for it at the street level and in popular culture. popular culture made this mess, and now they need to fix it. it needs a major overhaul.

And that's where such an issue should be resolved...On the street level, with each individual who could be affected by the issue.

This is not an issue that can be resolved on either the State or Federal levels...

Amendment 10
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Since the Federal government must not be allowed to "abridge" the Rights & the States must abide by the same restrictions to leave our Rights alone in the same way as the Feds, then it's up to the People...However, for the People to enforce the issue, all of the People must first reach agreement. Since not all People will agree to the same side of the issue, it cannot be enforced by anybody without violating someone's Rights.

Originally posted by Rilence
That is, should abortion be legal or not...On this issue, my mind has not change MUCH...However if such a thing is legislated, then a firm number when it comes to a foetus having a good chance of surviving its original birth date must also be legislated...

My whole point in this thread is that it's not an issue that should be left to legislation at all (at least, not in America)...Abortion is not an issue to be determined as legal or illegal by any level of government. Even an individual Citizen or any group of Citizens has no Right to enforce a certain decision on any other individual either...To do so would be in violation on the individual's Rights.

Originally posted by C0le
Lets just take a few things into consideration.

Many low income citizens often have multiple children they cannot afford, Now one can argue that they should just stop doing the deed and its all good, however what they do isn't my business, What is my business however is when they have these children they cannot afford and my tax dollars go to them...

Ah, now here is an issue with some depth to it...IMO, our taxes should not go to help those who refuse to accept the inherent responsibility that comes with each of our Rights. For example, The Right to Free Speech does not include the Right to scream the word "fire" in a crowded theater, because for every person injured or killed in the panic, the person who started the panic would be violating the Rights of those victimized by the panic.
In the same vein, those who cannot accept the responsibility of self-limiting the number of children they have, the government should not be given the ability to bail them out. This should also apply to those youngsters who have children that they can't support.

IMO, the Preamble clause, "promote the general welfare" is the single most-abused phrase...Because the government is not capable of providing for the individual welfare, only the general welfare of the Citizens as the whole of the population. This clause has been most abused by those who seek to exert more government control over the individual & the population as a whole.

Originally posted by C0leAbortions need to be looked upon, We need to find a middle ground here, where one who chooses not to have a child has a brief period of time they be allowed to terminate...

This is why abortion should be left to individual choice...Simply because there is no law that can be fairly applied to each individual's circumstances.