Objectively discuss your qualms with ...

As i said in one of my other posts, i will be coming here and making a new post that contains my points of disgust about president Bush and his current adminstration. I feel very strongly about this subject, and feel as though i may have difficulty explaining why im disgusted, but still feel loyal to this adminstration as a whole....so bare with me. So go into this knowing that i am not siding with "liberal" ideals, as well as not 100% backing the Bush administration. I feel as though if you choose to partake in politics, you have to choose the lesser of two evils and go with it.



First off, Bush is like any other politician. He lies, cheats, and steals to get what he wants. I've never denied that, i accept it as fact. But i also accept it as fact that liberals are the same way - which is why i have such a problem with most liberals, because most liberals refuse to speak common sense and reality, but choose to blindly follow the leader without question when that leader is a democrat republican.

My biggest problem with Bush came after watching a very informative documentary on SHO-time the other night. Maxed Out is about a world that i can relate to.

Though i've put my life back together again, i had put it in shambles when i was in college with credit card debt like you would not believe. If you have not yet seen this film, i urge you to do so, no matter which side of the river you stand.

In this film, it showed me the connection with big banks and bush, and after doing some of my own investigation, i came to the same conclusions that these producers for this movie did.

(side note) Never - ever - ever take something that a documentary tells you to be true as a fact until you do your own investigation. Documentaries should be used as a starting point and a reference point to create your own catalyst to drive your own think tank and get your point across

anyways -
I hate that Bush blames liberals for high oil prices. I dont care whos' fault it is - fix it. Oil companies are making tons of money - but defend their profits by saying its in line with other companies when applied to the same scale. HEY You must apply a DIFFERENT scale when your business is the lifeline for this country and all of its inhabitants. When your business virtually dictates the state of this economy - you have to use a different scale.


These sleazy old farts actually try to get us to eat their rhetoric. They say "we made 10 billion profit, after we spent 10 billion invested" meaning they invest in new technologies in a big way - and so their profits are big too. But think back to when gas was 99 cents or less. What has changed about gasoline since then? Nothing.

So where's the new technology that has had "billions" and maybe even trillions, pumped into it?

Also - lets invent some nubmers really fast for purposes of my next argument

Why is it that when a gas station pays $2.50 a gallon to fill its underground takes on the first of the month, that the price fluxuates so much on that same tank full of gas?
That'd be like a grocery store fluctuating the price of bread. Walmart bought this loaf of bread for 32 cents. Today its selling for 64 cents, but tomorrow, the same loaf of bread sells for $1.64.
That is price gouging, in my opinion.

Im angry at Bush for waiting to so long to do something about Saddam Hussein. Now before you go falling off your rocker and reach for your pitchforks, allow me to explain.
Saddam was given ample amounts of time to allow weapons inspectors into his country, but he chose to delay and, in my opinion, his delay's were so he could get rid of the WMD's that he had.
Im angry at Bush for waiting so long. If Bush had gone right in and found the WMD's and then attacked, he'd be a hero instead of a heretic.

I triumph in the capture of Saddam, and hope one day we'll all be watching the trial of Osama. I have faith in my govt to what is best for my govt, because in many ways, whats best for them is what is best for me. But i also have faith that my govt will never take advantage of me, but unfortunately that is not the case.

Liberals want the same thing Bush wants, IMO. Which is why none of them can be fully trusted.

But as i said earlier
You gota pick the lesser of the two evils and go with them, because other than that, your choices are anarchy, or moving to another country, and neither of those choices are really worth the time you'd have to invest in them.

I'd be interested to hear some feedback, and even hear your own grievances. Please stay objective. Try to speak about it from both ends of the ship, and how it effects YOU as a person, not how it effects someone in Ramabad, or India.

reply to post by ybab hsur


Im impressed. Critizing bush, a fellow conservative. Some might say that is somewhat liberal of you.

honestly, harvib, this is a completely different topic than the one we're using int he other topic. The other messages in that topic by me do not 100% support bush, and you'd know that if you were an objective reader. But you read only what you want to read and nothing more

If you have some comments about this topic, then by all means provide them, else go back to your corner and set there while i think of a fitting punishment for you

reply to post by ybab hsur


LOL I'm starting to like you...

At the risk of my time out being extended I am curious as to what you believe we have accomplished by invading Iraq. You say we should have invaded sooner? By this statement I gather you support The United States new policy on preemptive wars. In this case shouldn't we have attacked North Korea before Iraq. They openly declared they had a nuclear weapons program. I am curious as to why you believe that we decided to attack Iraq first. What about China and Iran?

Originally posted by harvib
reply to post by ybab hsur

 

LOL I'm starting to like you...

At the risk of my time out being extended I am curious as to what you believe we have accomplished by invading Iraq. You say we should have invaded sooner? By this statement I gather you support The United States new policy on preemptive wars. In this case shouldn't we have attacked North Korea before Iraq. They openly declared they had a nuclear weapons program. I am curious as to why you believe that we decided to attack Iraq first. What about China and Iran?

First off, i do believe we should do something about Iran and N. Korea. I feel very strongly that we should. And frankly i dont know why we havent.

Secondly. What have we accomplished by freeing Iraq?




oh...and...none of these things could be said in truth while saddam hussein was still in power...

Did you know that 47 countries' have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3,100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 new schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been completed in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program ?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational ?

They have 5-100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.
Did you know that Iraq's Air Forc e consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers ?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158% ?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?


[edit on 30-5-2008 by ybab hsur]

******Newsflash******

They ALL do that.

I was trying to find a study I saw about 5 years ago, was very interesting...it was an anonymous survey, where participants were asked to fill out a mini MMPI ( Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory ) and it rated everyone's answers and listed the results by 20 professions.

And as you'd figure, CEO's and politicians ranked the highest of any profession in the survey in having Narcissistic Personality Disorders and sociopathic tendencies compared to the the general population.

If anyone else remembers this study or can find it, send me a U2U with the link, it was very interesting...college professors had a higher rate of schizophrenic or schizoid tendencies and that's about all I can remember from it.

[edit on 30-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

[edit on 30-5-2008 by LateApexer313]

reply to post by ybab hsur


I wonder how the Iraqi people feel about all these accomplishments. We are occupiying their Country so it shouldn't be hard to find out.

The Iraqi men, women, and children probably don't see the value in these wonderful accomplishments. Maybe too busy burying their loved ones. but I'm sure once they get some time they'll take a look around and be very greatful for all the wonderful things we have done to their landscapes.

reply to post by harvib
Too busy burying their loved ones.
If you like to do research, compare some American cities per capita violent death rates and see how cities like Detroit flourished, thanks to capitolism and capital investments, in spite of.
I haven't been to the MidEast, but I have been part of an invading force, and believe me, nobody questions a gun.
I, to, am pissed at the Bush administration, as we (conservatives) wanted a conservative President.
We got a rubber spine in The Oval Office instead.
He doesn't lead, he tries to accomodate the minority party and just like the Dems did to his old man, they kicked him in the teeth.

reply to post by LAUGHING-CAT


LOL. I miss your point. Are you upset at me for insuating Iraqis are dying. Are they not? I agree Americans are dying. But that was not the issue being discussed.

Originally posted by LateApexer313
******Newsflash******

They ALL do that.

****NEWS FLASH *****

Nobody knows what you're talking about....!!!!!!

Also - i know what you're trying to get at, there harv, and yes, what you say does have some merit and holds a little bit of water...BUT

What would you rather them do? Waller in their self pity? What do you think they were doing under Saddams regime? They certainly were not playing patty-cake......

Once again, it seems as though people who share beliefs similar to yours (liberals....) are interested in only proving conservatives wrong. You deny the Iraqi's their accomplishments, simply because conservatives are saying "hey, look whats going on in Iraq that you can't complain about!"

...yet.....the complaints still reign in

*hands harv his dunce cap*

There are very few in Washington I have any use for. Most of the ones I do like have quit because of they're own disgust with the process and the bastardization of the constutional process. Bush is just another long line of people I had great hope for that has fallen way short of the mark. Our borders are still wide open. The border agents we put there to help out are crucified if they do they're jobs, Illegals here are driving down wages in many areas of the country and this administration wants to give them amnesty to stay here when so many skilled workers we need here wait years to even get a legal visa. And this man and the whole shebang in Washington sit by and make excuses for the whole problem. Hold hearings for no good reason ,spending millions to bloviate on they're own political agenda on these matters and never get to any concrete measures to fix anything.. EVERYTHING STINKS IN WASHINGTON..EVERYTHING!!!
Zindo

reply to post by ybab hsur


Here we go again... What have I said that leads you to believe that the reason I disagree with you is because you call your self a conservative. I, once again, have not identified myself as anything. I'm sure there are many people who identify themselves as conservatives that have concerns over the Iraq war. I would not disagree with them. I do not disagree with you based on whatever you identify yourself as. I disagree because i am an individual with a diffrent point of view and am looking to understand your point of view not nessecarly prove you wrong.

Futhermore I am not denying anyone there accomplishments. What I am saying is that I don't think we have any business in Iraq and the fact that we have built a few schools is insignificant compared to the havoc WE have caused.

You say you don't like George Bush. What if a foreign country invaded us in the name of a regime change. Stripped our land of its natrual resources. Killed innocent men, women, and children. Is this ideology that you support. If not then why do we pretend that it is OK to do to another nation.

If George Bush was commiting the same atrocities to me, as Saddam did to his country, then yes, i'd love for someone to move in and remove Bush from power forcefully (THAT IS NOT A THREAT to the President of the united states. that is nto an anarchist ideal, it is a conjecture to a question....dont arrest me big brother )


I never said you said anything, i said "people who share the same thoughts as y ou (liberals)

Sheesh, you deserve the misread award of the millenium

reply to post by ybab hsur
Did You Know something "Baby Rush", You are a very hostile, rude individual on any thread or post I have read that your associated with. Why anyone even bothers with you is beyond me. Unbelievably rude and just plain mouthy.



[edit on 30-5-2008 by BlindWatcher1]

reply to post by ybab hsur


So it is the job of foreign nations to deciede when a sovereign nations leader should be removed and not the job of its own citizens. I hope for our sake we are the only nation with that flawed foreign policy.

Sovereign
–noun 1. a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler.
2. a person who has sovereign power or authority.
3. a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority.
4. a gold coin of the United Kingdom, equal to one pound sterling: went out of circulation after 1914.
–adjective 5. belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereignty; royal.
6. having supreme rank, power, or authority.
7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.
8. greatest in degree; utmost or extreme.
9. being above all others in character, importance, excellence, etc.
10. efficacious; potent: a sovereign remedy.




The basic defiition of the word applies to any country, because all countries are ruled by someone.

And yes, it is the job of the powerful nations to remove from power those leaders who choose to use it for oppression.
What about the peaceful people of Burma? Should we not remove that militaristic govt?
Same thign with Vietnam, Iraq, N. Korea, etc.

Any country who has a "leader" of any kind committing mass astrocities to human beings of any nation, should be removed from power.

Now - my afformentioned statement is quite the proverbial double-edged sword. For you will try to make the rebuttal that any nation who attempts to dethrone said "bad guy leader" would in turn themselves become an evil dictator. But you're wrong.

There are certain types of people who won't listen to reason. you cannot talk with them. They understand only force, and if you must forcefully remove them from power, so that the people they are killing/exploiting can live in peace without fear for their own lives and that of their family, then so be it.

Im tired of seeing bleeding hearts for horrible people. You cry out for those who would love to kill you, and that is a noble thing, especially if you're a person of God, but the thing you're failing to realize is that by doing this, and saying "dont remove this person from power" you are damning the already suffering people to even more anguish and extermination.

How can you now see it this way?

reply to post by BlindWatcher1


and you just love to follow me around making stupid comments and not backing anything up with any sort of opinion on the topic of your own.

I believe this constitutes harrassment on some level. Oh, and i don't appreciate the personal onslaught of name calling.

if you cannot partake in the discussion at hand, go back to the kiddie pool.

I see and who decides who these powerful nations are. And what happens if these powerful nations are not invading nations in the interest of humanatarism but in the name of profit. Aren't we now the ones killing Iraqi citizens? What if a nation isn't asking for a foreign invasion are they allowed a say.

Many in this country feel that many attrocities are being commited by our own governement however I think most would defend against an ivasion by a foreign nation claiming liberation of our nation.

ya know, i respect you as a worthy debate opponent, but you do have tendency to stretch things too far.

You say "who decides these things?"

The people on top, thats who. Who decided that the bulls were the greatest during the years that MJ still played? The bulls did, because they won national championships.

America is not trying to conquer the world, America is bringing aid to those who need it. You are truthful in saying that Iraqi citizens have died, but you neglect to admit the othersides of that story, because they totally refute the point you're tryign to get at.

The others sides are this:

They were dying before we came. They are mostly dying at the hands of the terror cells still in Iraq. True that some civilian lives are lost due to american intervention, and that is unfortunate.
But even in our own country, if the police get in a shootout with bank robbers, and a few innocent civilians get in the cross fire, is that the police officers fault, or the bank robbers fault?

I already know your answer, but i just gota prove to myself that you could actually reply and say the police. Takes a lot of disregard for truth if you do.

Originally posted by ybab hsur

The people on top, thats who. Who decided that the bulls were the greatest during the years that MJ still played? The bulls did, because they won national championships.

The Bulls weren't champions for ever. I am very nervous as to what decisions will be made for us when we are no longer on top. Ebb and flow my friend its a natrual law that none of us can escape. Let us not foreget the implications of living by the sword...

America is not trying to conquer the world, America is bringing aid to those who need it. You are truthful in saying that Iraqi citizens have died, but you neglect to admit the othersides of that story, because they totally refute the point you're tryign to get at.

The others sides are this:

They were dying before we came. They are mostly dying at the hands of the terror cells still in Iraq. True that some civilian lives are lost due to american intervention, and that is unfortunate.
But even in our own country, if the police get in a shootout with bank robbers, and a few innocent civilians get in the cross fire, is that the police officers fault, or the bank robbers fault?

So do you think the loved ones of those few innocent civilians caught in the crossfire would appreciate the aid lended or would be in a postion to consider it aid at all?