non-flame questions to liberal americans

i am not flaming you - so do not flame me.

I am a conservative, i have been having other debates in other forums on other topics, and i have come up with a list of questions that the people i've been debating with refuse to, or cannot, answer. Again - no flames.

1.) Give me ample examples of which rights of yours have been stripped by bush since 9/11

2.) How is Iran's president ahmenijad (sp?) not practicing hate speech when he's talking about jews

3.) Except for ending Slavery, Nazism, Facism, and Communism.....
WAR HASNT SOLVED ANYTHING

Originally posted by ybab hsur
i am not flaming you - so do not flame me.

I am a conservative, i have been having other debates in other forums on other topics, and i have come up with a list of questions that the people i've been debating with refuse to, or cannot, answer. Again - no flames.

1.) Give me ample examples of which rights of yours have been stripped by bush since 9/11

Lets start with one. How about the ILLEGAL warrantless wiretapping of Americans.

2.) How is Iran's president ahmenijad (sp?) not practicing hate speech when he's talking about jews

He is. Unfortunately it's called freedom of speech and even jackasses get to express their ideas.

3.) Except for ending Slavery, Nazism, Facism, and Communism.....
WAR HASNT SOLVED ANYTHING

Well the american civil war brought 2 fractured areas together.

also, slavery is alive and well throughout the world and bigger then it ever was in the early americas.

[edit on 28-5-2008 by jfj123]

well you've got 2/5.

But

1.) Warrantless wiretapping? If an FBI agent is screening you for terrorist activities, and happens to butt in on you talking about selling coc aine, guess what? You cannot be prosecuted.
if you're not hiding anything, whats the big deal? You dont have a RIGHT to a private phone call. The phone companies are private companies that provide you service at their terms. phone companies recieve govt funding, and through that funding is language that allows them to do this in matters of national security.
So it may be that you dont like it, but that doesnt make it illegal.

2.) Freedom of speech? need i remind you about hitler and his freedom of speech and what it led to?

3.) Where is slavery prevelent? Also - you cut off my entire question

I asked you to disprove that statement (my sig)
The american civil war was about the private sector v.s. the federal govt. The federal govt said no to slavery, the private sector (mostly) said yes, thus was formed the confederate union. I agree that racism still exists, but im not so sure about slavery (though im willing to admit im wrong)

[edit on 28-5-2008 by ybab hsur]

Originally posted by ybab hsur
well you've got 2/5.

But

1.) Warrantless wiretapping? If an FBI agent is screening you for terrorist activities, and happens to butt in on you talking about selling coc aine, guess what? You cannot be prosecuted.

Yes and you also can't be held indefinitely in a prison camp without any rights yet that happens too.

if you're not hiding anything, whats the big deal?

1. It's against the law.
2. we have a right to privacy.

You dont have a RIGHT to a private phone call.

yes you do.

The phone companies are private companies that provide you service at their terms. phone companies recieve govt funding, and through that funding is language that allows them to do this in matters of national security.
So it may be that you dont like it, but that doesnt make it illegal.

There are specific laws which dictate how phone companies can interact with the government and those laws are put in place to protect our privacy. Bush's warrantless wiretap program violates those laws.

2.) Freedom of speech? need i remind you about hitler and his freedom of speech and what it led to?

You must take the good with the bad if you're going to follow the Constitution of the United States. If you want to give up all your rights to be a little safer, go ahead but I'm not interested in a slave state.

3.) Where is slavery prevelent?

Every country in the world including the United States.


[edit on 28-5-2008 by jfj123]

reply to post by ybab hsur


Put me down as 5/5 since I don't play 'do my homework for me.'
A serious discussion of any of these requires more interplay. You would get more responses if you picked one of those questions, offered some input of your ideas and then ask the reader for feedback.

It is far to easy to ask someone questions and then call them wrong.

Just my opinion. Good luck.

[edit on 28-5-2008 by scarlett1125]

Okay, ill take your advice and concentrate on one.

What im absolutely flabergasted by is this "slavery is still alive in the united states" because i'd really love to hear it, im not opposed to it, but i've never heard anyone say it before, even coming from discussions with black people about race.

Oh - and no - you dont have a constitutional right to a private phone call. As i said, the phone companies are not owned by the govt, and if you actually read your disclosure rights in your agreement with your phone company - it expresses that clause in there.

oh, and, why cant you answer more than 1 question?

They are not hard questions what so ever.

reply to post by ybab hsur


about the phone company - it does not explicity say "the govt can spy on you" but it does say that they will comply to the full extent with law officials. That means "IF YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW"

Basically it goes like this

They wiretap you using these clauses in phone company contracts. Dont like it? Dont use the phone company. Mostly landlines, btw.

If they find you are doing terrorist activity - they seek a warrant to wiretap you to appease the liberals who hate america. Simple as that. If you are hiding nothing then why are you opposed to this?

I really cannot grasp that concept - i am not flaming - i am seriously appauled that people would be opposed to safety.

you are not loosing "freedom"
you are no more free to a non-monitored phone call than you are to walk in the street and not have someone eavesdrop on your conversation.

Perfect example:

i can remember when i was a kid, and the cordless phones were the "thing of the future" you could pickup on your nieghbors phone calls with your cordless phone, if they too, had a cordless

There was no outcry about that. Look, i see what you're saying. I see that you believe you have the right to an unmonitored phone call. But how can you say that you would allow the terrorists to exploit that "right" and endanger us?

You think there's an FBI agent who is enjoying listenign to you talk about your chicken tar-tar recipe with grandma-johnson?





Also - another point, and i await an answer on this

Scenario: Lets say that the govt was spying on phone calls, and intercepted communcations about a bomb set to go off at a U.S. university. Now on the one hand they have a moral obligation to do something about it, and on the other hand they race liberal ridicule because they violated the "right" that a human being has to a "private phone call"

Would you rather

A.) have them move in an thwart the bomb attack
B.) have them ignore it because they violated a "right"?


Also - antoher good exmaple i believe is this:

If a teacher over hears a student talking about planning on shooting the school up because he hates the jocks and preps, but hears about it in an intrustive way (lets say....spying?) should the kid be treated as a threat, or left alone because the teacher did not approach the child and say "are you going to kill kids at my school with a gun"?

The terrorists arent going to call you on the phone and say "hey im gona attack now, suprise!!"

So why are you so against finding them before they kill us?

[edit on 28-5-2008 by ybab hsur]

Originally posted by ybab hsur
Okay, ill take your advice and concentrate on one.

What im absolutely flabergasted by is this "slavery is still alive in the united states" because i'd really love to hear it, im not opposed to it, but i've never heard anyone say it before, even coming from discussions with black people about race.

LMAO, you can't seriously believe he means black people in the United States, can you?

Firstly, he said "the world", not the US. You misquoted him entirely. Slavery is alive and well in the world. In fact I had a friend in highschool who was from a noble family in India (super rich), and he had half a dozen slaves who lived on his property, who were never allowed to leave and received no pay.

Secondly, we do have a form of slavery in the USA. No one outwardly describes it as such, but the illegal immigrant class is the new slave class. They work for next to nothing, live in sub-par conditions due to thier non-citizenship, and are subject to deportation if they attract too much attention.

Don't get me wrong, Illegal immigrants seeking work opportunities are not slaves, they are here on their own free will. We just treat them like slaves.

Edit: And how exactly has war "solved" communism, facism, nazism and slavery anyway? These are all still around in all corners of the world. The only one of those that war has had any effect on was Nazism, and all WWII did was push that out of the mainstream. The rest are still kickin'.

[edit on 28-5-2008 by drwizardphd]

3.) Where is slavery prevelent?

Every country in the world including the United States.


[edit on 28-5-2008 by jfj123]


i beg your pardon, but you are wrong sir, he said the united states.

get your facts straight if you're gona come to the grown-up table.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by ybab hsur
reply to post by drwizardphd

 

and there is not a descendant of black slavery who should not want to beat you down for comparing what mexicans put themselves into, and what blacks were forced into

how dare you insinuate otherwise you racist pig, ill flame you on that one, beucase you make a dispicable statement.

My apologies, I didn't see the end of his post. However, I stand by my statement that the illegal immigrant class is a form of slavery.

I clearly stated in my post that what illegal immigrants (not just Mexicans) go through is not true slavery. It's just a form of slavery. I will say this once and not again:

In the United States of America, as of 2008, we do not give Illegal Immigrants the same working rights as other Americans, or any rights for that matter. Nor do we do anything to regulate or enforce how they are compensated for their work. It is for these reasons that Illegal Immigrants are treated as slaves in the American workforce.

You can now scream about how they should get no rights because they didn't fill out all the right forms when they crossed the border, I'm not gonna argue with you on that one.

Also, this board has a spell check. The words that are underlined in red are spelled wrong. You can right click and the computer will give you suggestions on how to spell the word properly.

reply to post by ybab hsur

1.) Give me ample examples of which rights of yours have been stripped by bush since 9/11

I can if you really want me to, but perhaps you could answer this question to put things in perspective...


What freedom do you have that can not be infringed or taken away arbitrarily?

2.) How is Iran's president ahmenijad (sp?) not practicing hate speech when he's talking about jews

He is. So?

3.) Except for ending Slavery, Nazism, Facism, and Communism.....

Slavery is alive and well in the world. Even right here in the States. Even if you don't want to go into a discussion on the very real aspects of economic slavery and the fact that you are quite literally a privately held commodity of the privately owned Federal Reserve, there are indeed cases of people who import foreigners to work as slaves in their homes and businesses. My local Chinese buffet just got shut down for it.

Nazism too still exists in the world. Granted, none seem to be outwardly state-sanctioned, but it was the Bush family who made their fortune knowingly and willingly supporting genocide and the Hitler regime.

And fascism is a live and well right here in the states. What do you call it when the police or even the military can come into your home without a warrant in the middle of the night and take you away to prison without any charges or due process? And of course, that's only right here in the US. Islamo-fascism is a term that seems to get thrown around a lot, so I would certainly say that fascism too is alive and well.

Communism. Well you see, there is this big country on the other side of the planet called China. They happen to still be Communist. Not to mention the fact that Russia too has been taking a swing back toward Communism as well.

4.) The CIA issued intelligence reports, along with Great Britain and the united nations, that Sadaam Hussein had WMD's before the Iraq war began. CIA being the head of this. Now the CIA says there is not threat from Iran. Why do liberals ridicule the same CIA for being wrong about iraq, and being right about iran, becuase, to me, it seems as though all you're doing is going against anything a conservative has to say.

I for one never trust anything the CIA ever has to say. When's the last time they got one right?

5.) If Sadaam didtn have WMDs, then give me a good reason why you think Sadaam delayed for weeks, and never let in the United Nations weapon inspectors.

So Iran wouldn't attack him. In the end it all came down to "Curveball." What a joke that was.

Not trying to flame you too bad, but I don't consider myself a liberal either, for the record.

[edit on 5/28/0808 by jackinthebox]

Hey, ybab hsur, that's a good one. "rush baby" Making it sound middle eastern and then getting involved in threads that are political. Great way to get the forums rumblin.

Originally posted by ybab hsur
1.) Give me ample examples of which rights of yours have been stripped by bush since 9/11

Are you quite serious? The patriot Act, Domestic spying, warrentless spying (sure the guys that lied about WMD's would never abuse it) Blatant disregard for the precepts and tennants of our constitution (kangaroo courts, rendition, torture, GITMO, Abu Ghraib) While some may not have had a direct personal effect on me, it shows that this administration would not hesatate to do the same to citizens of the US. Oh wait they already have eh?

2.) How is Iran's president ahmenijad (sp?) not practicing hate speech when he's talking about jews

Is it any different than Bush slapping the Axis of Evil lable on them? Are you saying. At anyrate what make say Chavez any different? Should we invade his country too?

3.) Except for ending Slavery, Nazism, Facism, and Communism.....
WAR HASNT SOLVED ANYTHING

We did not win in an actualy war over Communism rather we bankrupted them in an arms race. Now the irony is we are tanking our economy by engaging in a pointless war that is now bankruption our economy

4.) The CIA issued intelligence reports, along with Great Britain and the united nations, that Sadaam Hussein had WMD's before the Iraq war began. CIA being the head of this. Now the CIA says there is not threat from Iran. Why do liberals ridicule the same CIA for being wrong about iraq, and being right about iran, becuase, to me, it seems as though all you're doing is going against anything a conservative has to say.

Can't speak for the Brits, but its pretty clear the admin cherry picked and massaged or forced thier view point from the data and analysis. Scott McClelands new book also goes into this.

Perhaps the CIA is being a bit more objective now? And we are seeing the real data not the post Cheney Rummy embelishments.

5.) If Sadaam didtn have WMDs, then give me a good reason why you think Sadaam delayed for weeks, and never let in the United Nations weapon inspectors.

So you as absolute dictator of country X would simply allow the UN to prance about your country? How come Isreal does not let them in?


[edit on 5/28/08 by FredT]

blah blah blah blah

not actual answers, just the same excuses.

Oh - and to the guy who said Mexicans are slaves...omfg you made my day. "We dont give them the same rights as merican workers"

no kidding??????WOW what a novel thought

maybe because they....oh....ARENT AMERICAN CITIZENS

Where's your bleeding *snip* heart for the americans who dont have a job because of these illegal imigrants?

Oh, and im glad someone finally picked up on my chosen screen name

Good eye. If others picked up on it sooner, kudos to you too, but he's the first to say something.


Case in point - slavery does not exist. if you think it does, then you are just arguing with me because im conservative and if you agreed with me, your world would come tumbling to an end.

Its okay - accept your fate and your reality, too bad your'e still living in a fantasy world

im done with this topic, i did it to prove to myself and the ppl on my friends list that no liberal could actually answer my questions.

you say "so" to ahmenijad after you supprt him by saying he has the right to free speech. Whtas' next? Is hitler your new messiah?

you people crack me up.

See ya later. Im going back to a place where things make sense.

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 31-5-2008 by GAOTU789]

reply to post by ybab hsur

I am a conservative..

What does that mean? Do you mean to say that you agree with the Republicans in power, or do you mean to say that you are a textbook conservative.

Lemme tell you, I was raised by a conservative family, and I couldn't agree less with what this administration has been doing.

Fiscally conservative Republicans who believe in small government are a fading memory. Few people alive today can even recall a Republican during their lifetime who ACTUALLY FOLLOWED the party rhetoric on these fronts.

Big government has never been bigger, and if these so-called conservatives (or neo-conservatives) are anything but Hawk Democrats playing bait and switch with middle America, I'll be a monkey's uncle.

Mind you - I'm not flaming you, but you say you're a conservative, and I have to point out that there's been NOTHING conservative about this administration (except perhaps their stance on gun control).

1.) Give me ample examples of which rights of yours have been stripped by bush since 9/11

I can't ride a train or fly on an airplane without being searched in the absence of probable cause.

The FBI has released bulletins asking local law enforcement to be on the lookout for terrorists in the guise of tourists, artists, students, and homeless people. Tell me that the rights of these people to fair and equal treatment has not been violated...

Thought crime is now a reality - anyone whose words can be construed as support for terrorism can legally be charged with conspiracy to commit terrorism - even if they never amass weapons or make material preparations. Simply commenting on the need for a domestic regime change could, under the current legal language, be construed as the modern version of sedition...

The right of citizens to travel freely has been infringed by random roadblocks and checkpoints. This is expected in territories ruled over by warlords or dictators, but it is not par for the course in a free country.

The right to privacy has been thoroughly compromised thanks to warrant-less wiretaps and surveillance.

The right to a fair (and speedy) trial has gone out the window - anyone accused of terrorism can be held indefinitely without trial and without formal charges.

I remember something about a presumption of innocence but, geez, it's been so long since it's been applicable I've gone and forgotten the details.

How about the right to assemble peacefully? How about the right to vote (still in effect in non-swing states, admittedly)? How about the rights of the states to regulate their own affairs without the intrusion of the federal government?

2.) How is Iran's president ahmenijad (sp?) not practicing hate speech when he's talking about jews

Do you have a transcript of him talking about the Jews, I'd like to see it.

He objects to ISRAEL - not Jews. There are a good number of Jews living peacefully in Iran as we speak.

The media would have you believe he's a racist, but in actual fact he's a nationalist with an anti-Israel bias.

I think you might be oversimplifying the issue a great deal.

[edit on 28-5-2008 by WyrdeOne]

reply to post by ybab hsur

Where's your bleeding #ing heart for the americans who dont have a job because of these illegal imigrants?

Well, I'm with you there. But what has Bush done about it? Pulled the National Guard off the border and left it wide open for months for one.

And it doesn't change the fact that illegals certainly are being exploited. If they weren't, I would be still have a competitive edge over them. Instead, I've been driven out of work by illegals.

Case in point - slavery does not exist. if you think it does, then you are just arguing with me because im conservative and if you agreed with me, your world would come tumbling to an end.

Did you miss my example?

you say "so" to ahmenijad after you supprt him by saying he has the right to free speech. Whtas' next? Is hitler your new messiah?

I never said I supported him, but have you ever heard of "sticks and stones...?"

So far, the only one killing people and invading foreign countries is Bush.



[edit on 5/28/0808 by jackinthebox]

3.) Except for ending Slavery, Nazism, Facism, and Communism.....
WAR HASNT SOLVED ANYTHING