To non believers in GOD. What in the world do you believe in? and why?

Originally posted by CA_Orot
Straddling the Fence is exactly where I like to be. For me Personally, i am somewhere. You might not understand that, but for me It means that I don't disregard his existence or accept it. It means I don't have the answers. It means I don't pretend to have the answers. It means that I am perfectly comfortable on the fence, because I personally don't feel I have enough information to make a well informed decision. If I am not comfortable picking a side, then why must I? I don't have to. Sitting on the fence is what is right for me. Personally.

I don't believe that these questions will ever be answered either, which is why I'd rather not take an extreme belief in anything. I personally don't have a need to believe in anything at this point in my life. I have a need to understand first.

You hit the nail on the head there, CA. To reiterate Guided, well said!

Guided,

I will explain, in part, why I feel the way I do in the form of an analogy. Now, I do not expect you to reconsider your beliefs based on anything I've said. In fact, I would absolutely never want to make somebody question their faith, but I feel the need to explain my position.

A single mother is raising her son. We'll call him Henry. One day, when her son is 6 years old, he asks her where his father is. His mother tells him "Well, your father is in a very far away place." "Can I talk to him?" the son asks. "Well, you can write him letters. Somebody wrote his address down for me a long time ago, and if you want, you can write to him, but he will not be able to write back." The son starts writing letters to his father, understanding that he won't ever get a response, but that's ok. As the son grows older and more inquisitive, it becomes necessary for the mother to provide more detail on the situation. She tells the son that it was the father who bought them the house they now live in, and also made sure that she has a job and is able to pay the bills and buy food. One day, the mother shows her son a letter, typed up on an old type writer, that confirms the story that she's told her son. The letter also explains that the son needs to make sure that the house is always in good condition, because someday the father will return. His father is very rich, the mother explains, and when he returns, the son can live with him in the house he has maintained, rent free, and have anything he wants. The son asks to see pictures of his father, but the mother has none. He cannot ask his father for proof, for it would be considered rude, and then his father may never return.

So, for many years, the son diligently keeps the house in tip-top shape. Now, the son is 40 years old, and his mother passes away. The son has his own house in the area, and the house that he lived in with his mother is all paid off and left to him. He could sell the house if he wanted to, but he remembers the words of his mother and the letter from his father. For another ten years, the son does not sell the house, and works on it every week to keep it in the same shape that it was in when he was a small child. Finally, at age 50, his faith starts to waiver. He's never seen his father, and has no proof of his existence. If his father was truly alive, couldn't he at least make a phone call? Send a picture? Write a letter? The son gets desperate. He starts sending letters to his father, begging him for proof. After all, if the story his mother told him was all a lie, he didn't need to be maintaining that house. He could very well sell it and make a profit. After five years of pleading to his father for any shred of proof of his existence, the son gives up and sells the house.

Another five years later, the son is 60 years old, and sitting in his home watching TV. The doorbell rings, he opens it, and there is a man there who claims to be his father. Sure enough, DNA testing proves that this man is, indeed, his father. He asks if he held onto the house for him. The son explains that for many years, he held onto the house, but he no longer has it. The father tells the son that he is very disappointed in him, and that he should have held onto the house. Because he chose not to believe the word of his father, though, he will never see him again. "I wanted to believe in you, father, I did. I begged you to send me any shred of proof to show me that you exist...to make me feel like I had a reason for maintaining that house of yours for so many years. Why couldn't you have just written back?" "It doesn't matter," the father says, "You knew not to test me. You chose not to believe in me, so now I will leave you. Good bye." Just like that, the son never sees his father again. His father, it turns out, really is very rich. He owns a very large mansion in another state, and it just so happens that Henry wasn't his only child. The man had a few different children with different women around the same time, and those that believed he would someday return, who all had similar tasks as Henry, now live in the mansion with their father, rent free, and he buys them anything they want. Henry is struggling to stay afloat. He got laid off from his job, and he is in danger of losing his house. His father will not help him, though. Why? Because it was Henry's choice not to believe in his father's existence. Maybe if he had just chosen to believe that his father would someday return, he wouldn't be in this mess right now, and he would instead be living happily with his father.

The end.

Now, I understand that this isn't entirely analogous, but it's sort of how I see the "Just believe" predicament. Make sense? Furthermore, whose at fault here for Henry not believing in his father? Is it Henry, who had absolutely nothing to stand on, or is the fault of his father who knew of Henry's existence, and did absolutely nothing all of those years (apart from that old letter) to show him that he existed?

Herman: WOW!! What a story. You actually made tears in my eyes. Except, you know what I was expecting a different ending. The son was to say to the father, "Please forgive me for selling the house" and the father was to say, "I forgive you". Isn't what we would say to our loved ones if they asked us for forgiveness.

I believe when you admit your "wrong doings" sincerely. GOD will forgive you if you ask.

That was quite a post! Thanks

Herman: I just to add. I know what you mean about just believing. What is so hard/wrong about that. I truly belief GOD's exsistence/proof surrounds us everyday. I think "we" are just to "educated" to realize what we are really seeing. We question everything? That's not a miracle, that's just luck, coincidence. Thats a disaster not from GOD (as said would happen), but earthquakes etc. are just changes and problems in our world. Thanks

If there is a 'GOD' out there then why would it take thousands of years for it to get it's will documented and even then allow people such as Paul who was merely a profiteer with the Romans hijack it's word.

After it all it supposedly made creation in seven days....

Ironic how the Romans killed this things supposed son yet it lets them turn around and blame it on the jews and persecute them after it spent most of the OT blabbing on about how they are the 'chosen' and protecting them as the 'master race'.

Don't even get me started on people like Luke who talks about the last supper 60 years after it happened and he wasn't even there when it happened anyway and thus If Christains believe dudes like this bogus guys testaments why don't they believe in Mohammed.

This creator or God that's supposedly built this fine set of infinte universes and everything in them seriously can't be as stupid as it's books make it out to be.

I think something is out there but it's unfathonamble to our minds after all the finite cannot comprehend the infinte.

Those that think they know something often know less than they think they know.

[edit on 29-5-2008 by SR]

[edit on 29-5-2008 by SR]

reply to post by Herman


Herman, that was a great story to use to put things into perspective!!

Awesome.

-Carrot

SR(quote):This creator or God that's supposedly built this fine set of infinte universes and everything in them seriously can't be as stupid as it's books make it out to be.

If you are talking about the bible. Which I assume you are. The bible is such a complex book. Nobody today can agree upon alot of things it talks about. Is this what you meant? If not, what did you mean? Thanks.



SR(quote):
Those that think they know something often know less than they think they know.

I know nothing more than you do. I guess the only difference is I "feel" it. I just can't figure out why other people don't "feel" the same way. All GOD and Jesus wanted was basically "love and peace". Man has destroyed that. Why? Whether you believe in GOD or not. Don't you want that too?

Originally posted by Guided
Herman: WOW!! What a story. You actually made tears in my eyes. Except, you know what I was expecting a different ending. The son was to say to the father, "Please forgive me for selling the house" and the father was to say, "I forgive you". Isn't what we would say to our loved ones if they asked us for forgiveness.

I believe when you admit your "wrong doings" sincerely. GOD will forgive you if you ask.

That was quite a post! Thanks

Well, I'm glad I could write such an inspirational story! I made it up pretty much on the fly. The father coming to the son's house when he was 60 is essentially "Judgement day." From what I understand in Christianity, once you die, it's too late to repent. In other words, once you die and are finally able to see God for yourself, it's too late. The father saying "I forgive you, son. You were challenged and you failed, but I'm your father, I love you, and I understand that, so you may come live with me if you choose." is what would make the most sense to me.

I do not believe in any deities, I do not believe that religion holds any answers that you cannot find if you look hard enough, the way I look at it is that most if not all religions exist purely because at the time our scientific knowledge and understanding was at a minimum and religion was the way people used to define how we got here, how the world works and how we should act to each other, although I also believe that if you are religious then whatever religion you believe is right everyone is entitled to their beliefs. But what do I believe in? this is going to sound clichéd but I believe in human beings and their capacity to do the right thing to one another, and I believe in science


perhaps I am being naive

Originally posted by CA_Orot
Straddling the Fence is exactly where I like to be. For me Personally, i am somewhere. You might not understand that, but for me It means that I don't disregard his existence or accept it. It means I don't have the answers. It means I don't pretend to have the answers. It means that I am perfectly comfortable on the fence, because I personally don't feel I have enough information to make a well informed decision. If I am not comfortable picking a side, then why must I? I don't have to. Sitting on the fence is what is right for me. Personally.

I don't believe that these questions will ever be answered either, which is why I'd rather not take an extreme belief in anything. I personally don't have a need to believe in anything at this point in my life. I have a need to understand first.

What exactly is it your straddling the fence in regards to?

Are you on the fence in regards to the Theory of Evolution? If so you’re extremely intellectually lazy.

Are you on the fence in regards to the truthfulness of the God of the Bible? If so then you’re also very intellectually lazy or dishonest.

Are you on the fence in regards to the existence of any general God, creator force or similar? Then I’d say you’re an Agnostic Atheist and intellectually honest.

If you don’t have faith in any religion then you’re an atheist. Atheism is not a belief system, it is absence of belief.

Originally posted by Herman
A single mother is raising her son. We'll call him Henry. One day, when her son is 6 years old, he asks her where his father is. His mother tells him "Well, your father is in a very far away place." "Can I talk to him?" the son asks. "Well, you can write him letters. Somebody wrote his address down for me a long time ago, and if you want, you can write to him, but he will not be able to write back."…

Yeah, riiiightt. This father character is an utter ass[hole]. I know you’re trying to make the analogy that the father is God, yet even if that was the case, God would still be a smock!

If I was the son I would surely write a letter to my supposed rich father at a fairly early age:

“Hey daddy, I just wanted to let you know that I think you’re a coward. Although mom likes to keep up her appearances and make it seem like everything’s ok, I know she cries at night. Hey dad, F off and never return, neither of us wanted your riches, we just wanted a normal father and husband. Go to hell, ass[hole].”

reply to post by Herman


That is one cool story.

But the conclusion that I drew from the story is this: the father rewards faith... and that is all that matters to him.

I respect and admire people for their character, not for their faith in whatever they choose to follow.

It does not matter to me if my children were to never acknowledge or obey me as their father, as long as they are decent and moral people.

What kind of a father puts their children in these kinds of test anyway, the ones' with agendas. This isn't love, no matter how it is disguised up to be.

Sometimes no rewards can replace a meaningful relationship that someone may have with their parents.

Originally posted by AveIMil

Originally posted by CA_Orot
Straddling the Fence is exactly where I like to be. For me Personally, i am somewhere. You might not understand that, but for me It means that I don't disregard his existence or accept it. It means I don't have the answers. It means I don't pretend to have the answers. It means that I am perfectly comfortable on the fence, because I personally don't feel I have enough information to make a well informed decision. If I am not comfortable picking a side, then why must I? I don't have to. Sitting on the fence is what is right for me. Personally.

I don't believe that these questions will ever be answered either, which is why I'd rather not take an extreme belief in anything. I personally don't have a need to believe in anything at this point in my life. I have a need to understand first.

What exactly is it your straddling the fence in regards to?

Are you on the fence in regards to the Theory of Evolution? If so you’re extremely intellectually lazy.

Are you on the fence in regards to the truthfulness of the God of the Bible? If so then you’re also very intellectually lazy or dishonest.

Are you on the fence in regards to the existence of any general God, creator force or similar? Then I’d say you’re an Agnostic Atheist and intellectually honest.

If you don’t have faith in any religion then you’re an atheist. Atheism is not a belief system, it is absence of belief.

The truth is objective and subjective to who ever believes it anything can be the 'truth' yet when compared to known reality that's where these things are truely determined as a measure of 'truth' or not.

I could see purple flying elephants and that would be the 'truth' and thus those that believe me would be believing in the 'truth' does the fact that in our 'known' reality so far this would be an 'impossible' thing to see lessen the fact that it's the truth???

Does the 'fact' that not everone in the world has seen the flying purple elephants lessen the 'fact' that it's the 'truth'

Lastly does the 'fact' that not every single person in the world believes the 'truth' of the flying purple elephants lessens the undeniable 'fact' that it is the 'TRUTH'.

Thus we have a dilemma of the kind Volitaire amongst others proposed.

Originally posted by SR
The truth is objective and subjective to who ever believes it anything can be the 'truth' yet when compared to known reality that's where these things are truely determined as a measure of 'truth' or not.

I could see purple flying elephants and that would be the 'truth' and thus those that believe me would be believing in the 'truth' does the fact that in our 'known' reality so far this would be an 'impossible' thing to see lessen the fact that it's the truth???

Does the 'fact' that not everone in the world has seen the flying purple elephants lessen the 'fact' that it's the 'truth'

Lastly does the 'fact' that not every single person in the world believes the 'truth' of the flying purple elephants lessens the undeniable 'fact' that it is the 'TRUTH'.

Thus we have a dilemma of the kind Volitaire amongst others proposed.

That's true. Truth is a tricky word and probably not well used here.

To clarify my sentence should read: Do you believe the Christian Bible to be an accurate representation of reality or a bunch of hogwash? If you believe it is an accurate representation of reality then you’re either intellectually lazy, dishonest or both.

Of course this is directed to the mind of a ‘fence sitter’. This does not apply to a believer in jesus christ as he or she *may* neither be intellectually lazy nor dishonest. He or she might simply be delusional, i.e. sick in the mind.


[edit on 30-5-2008 by AveIMil]

Originally posted by AveIMil

Originally posted by SR
The truth is objective and subjective to who ever believes it anything can be the 'truth' yet when compared to known reality that's where these things are truely determined as a measure of 'truth' or not.

I could see purple flying elephants and that would be the 'truth' and thus those that believe me would be believing in the 'truth' does the fact that in our 'known' reality so far this would be an 'impossible' thing to see lessen the fact that it's the truth???

Does the 'fact' that not everone in the world has seen the flying purple elephants lessen the 'fact' that it's the 'truth'

Lastly does the 'fact' that not every single person in the world believes the 'truth' of the flying purple elephants lessens the undeniable 'fact' that it is the 'TRUTH'.

Thus we have a dilemma of the kind Volitaire amongst others proposed.

That's true. Truth is a tricky word and probably not well used here.

To clarify my sentence should read: Do you believe the Christian Bible to be an accurate representation of reality or a bunch of hogwash? If you believe it is an accurate representation of reality then you’re either intellectually lazy, dishonest or both.

Of course this is directed to the mind of a ‘fence sitter’. This does not apply to a believer in jesus christ as he or she *may* neither be intellectually lazy nor dishonest. He or she might simply be delusional, i.e. sick in the mind.


[edit on 30-5-2008 by AveIMil]

Indeed my friend who knows..who knows...None one alive today was around back then to pass comment.

Thus the common problem of people believing that time adds a legitamacy to claims which is a falsehood.

Maybe in the far future when theres a flying purple elephant religion we'll understand more

For all the total non-believers in GOD and Jesus:

A very wise person once told me this. If you truly do not believe in GOD. Test yourself. Go out to an large open field in the dark. Standing there say anything possible that you want to say against GOD. To you GOD does not exist (imaginary). So you should not have any hesitation whatsoever to do this.

Personally, I pray that you don't. I hope there is one little tiny piece of something in you that possibly may make you think that GOD could exist. If that is true. GOD is part of your life without you even realizing it. If you were to do this. My heart aches for you "literally".

Not being mean or personally attacking.

But you started a thread asking what non-believers thought and why.

I thought it was a good topic.

But - instead I feel like I've been baited into a sermon.

Just saying.

Originally posted by Annee
Not being mean or personally attacking.

But you started a thread asking what non-believers thought and why.

I thought it was a good topic.

But - instead I feel like I've been baited into a sermon.

Just saying.

It's not a sermon, Annee. I truly believe when people say that they don't believe it's not 100%. Why is GOD in my life and not some one who does not believe. I am no different than you or anyone else. I guess that's what I can't figure out. I don't mean to offend you. Sorry.

Originally posted by Guided

Originally posted by Annee
Not being mean or personally attacking.

But you started a thread asking what non-believers thought and why.

I thought it was a good topic.

But - instead I feel like I've been baited into a sermon.

Just saying.

It's not a sermon, Annee. I truly believe when people say that they don't believe it's not 100%. Why is GOD in my life and not some one who does not believe. I am no different than you or anyone else. I guess that's what I can't figure out. I don't mean to offend you. Sorry.

You did not offend me.

I just would have liked more discussion and less "what feels like" preaching.

Originally posted by ixiy
reply to post by Herman

 

That is one cool story.

But the conclusion that I drew from the story is this: the father rewards faith... and that is all that matters to him.

I respect and admire people for their character, not for their faith in whatever they choose to follow.

It does not matter to me if my children were to never acknowledge or obey me as their father, as long as they are decent and moral people.

What kind of a father puts their children in these kinds of test anyway, the ones' with agendas. This isn't love, no matter how it is disguised up to be.

Sometimes no rewards can replace a meaningful relationship that someone may have with their parents.

My point exactly. I was illustrating (To put it bluntly.) the absurdity of the "Well, it was your choice not to believe, so you deserve Hell" argument. If something like my story were to happen in real life, nobody would blame the son for losing faith. Furthermore, everybody would look down on the father, who chooses not to help his son because his son "chose not to follow him."

Originally posted by Annee

I just would have liked more discussion and less "what feels like" preaching.

Fair enough!