STOP PRESS - Vast Cracks Appear in Arctic Ice

Should we humans clean up our act yes we should, can we stop natural cycles no we cannot. The simple fact of the matter is that there are too many people on this planet and many would be happy to see it depopulated. Why some people think we have a divine right to exist at the expense of all other life forms on this planet I dont understand.

The planet Earth is infested with carbon units, if millions die so what we are not immortal and its just the natural process, mother Earth getting rid of the fleas on her back.

reply to post by magicmushroom


Should we humans clean up our act? Yes we should. Can we stop natural cycles no we cannot. The simple fact of the matter is that there are many people on this planet and a few would be happy to see it depopulated. I do understand why some people think we have a divine right to exist at the expense of all other life forms on this planet.

The planet Earth is infested with precious human beings. If millions die it would be tragic. We are immortal, just not in this life. And its not just some natural process, "mother Earth" getting rid of the fleas on her back!

It is a natural process and there is nothing we can do about it, the Earth has undergone many changes and will continue to irrespective of mans actions. Nature provides but it can also take away, why are you so scared of natural events.

Its a natural instinct to survive yet the time will come when many will perish that is natures way, a cleansing of the planet, that is good is it not.

reply to post by magicmushroom


That is not the way I see it, but you are perfectly entitled to hold that view.

Put it this way - if we were serious about cutting carbon emissions we might be able to sustain our present way of life. Without converting our economies to renewable energy sources we're on a road to nowhere. And those that will suffer most are inevitably those that are least able to do anything about it - third world populations.

When I say 'populations' I think 'people as valuable as me'. I am aware others think 'masses I don't care about, and which are expendable'.

Please don't come out with 'natural selection'-type arguments. That's the kind of thing that led to Hitler and Stalin, with their mad schemes to 'advance' mankind.

reply to post by LoneGunMan



I'm not the one who made the analogy in the first place, so back off with the insulting tone.

Lets see what the difference is in the last decade or so...here is one.

Huh? Cars, might pollute less per car in the Industrilized West but there are more cars on the road worldwide, most of them dirtier polluting cars in the Developing world. You have only guesses with no real data behind them to back them up.

I could go on and on. The point to all this is that it is a distraction so we will argue about global warming while we die of a toxic environment.

Please do go "on and on", since you haven't answered the question why global temps have remained stable with past decade or so. The cleaner cars argument is a weak one as the industrializaton of China and India have been happening at the same time period and we still don't have a real temp increase that can be corralated to that.

Don't turn the debate of what is causing GW into a "the enviorment is being posioned by our pollution". Start a new thread on that if you want to draw attention to that. Yes Pollution is bad, no one here is disputing that. I do dispute that humans are the Main cause of GW, there is simply not enough real hard science to prove that. Yes GW is occuring in the grand scheme of things, it is a cycle that the Earth goes through regardless of the mess human activity does. The Earth has been warmer in the geological recent past and hasn't been attributed to Mankind, what caused those Warming periods then?

How do you get natural selection from what I wrote? The simple facts are this, we are living on an unstable terra forming planet and as such we are from time to time at its mercy. Coupled with the fact that we are hurtling along in space full of bollides that can, have and will hit the Earth everybody is at risk from such events.

You appear to have an agenda by labelling those who do not agree with your views. Such natural events do not pick out race, class, colour or religion. That said some parts of the globe are more unstable than others but overall all are affected. Cutting anything will not save us from natural events and perhaps one should not try at all, perhaps we should let nature take its own course.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by WhatTheory

 

Even if it is a natural cycle how can we "sit back and enjoy" when hundreds of millions of people will be suffering and dying as a consequence? At the very least civilized human beings should be thinking in terms of contingency measures.

Contingency measures for the sun getting hotter?

If that is what is happening, just face it that nature is sometimes cruel and people are going to die - no matter how many trillions of dollars you want to spend.

If I'm not mistaken the sun's solar cycle (sun spots) ends in 2010, I think humans effect global warming slightly, but I think it's mostly a natural cycle, we may just be helping it speed along. Regardless, having alternative energies and clean fuel would be a nice thing to have...so I don't mind the "global warming" movement. This year we are getting plenty of rain, last year it hardly rained at all here (Tennessee). The leaves were falling off the trees in mid-summer as if it were fall...it was so dry...but this year, it's really wet

[edit on 25-5-2008 by yellowcard]

reply to post by magicmushroom

You appear to have an agenda by labelling those who do not agree with your views.

I apologise if I came across anything like that. I'll try and put it another way. When you said...

The planet Earth is infested with carbon units, if millions die so what we are not immortal and its just the natural process, mother Earth getting rid of the fleas on her back.

...you opened yourself up to an accusation of heartless 'survival of the fittest', which is why I pointed out the moral pitfall of applying anything like natural selection to how we regard populations less able to cope with climate change than our own. Your statement sounded just like cold-blooded Malthusian economics.

ive not read all the posts on this subject as there are far too many!
"climate change" may well be happening but i think its just a natural cycle that the planets going through, i remember the early '80s here in the uk when we were told that we were heading for a new ice age and that acid rain was a real danger! scientists say that sea levels are rising and the east coast of england is proof of that 'cause of the coastal erosion going on there, what they seem to forget is that the uk is tilting and has been for hundreds of years-harlech castle in wales (the west coast of the uk) used to have the sea lapping at its foundations now the sea is several hundred yards at least away.
scientists get things wrong all the time, the earth changes all the time-put these two together and you get a load of speculative b*llsh!t.

we should worry more about what our governments are up to instead of worrying about something we have no control over. theyre taxing us to the hilt, food prices go up everyday and our freedom is being eroded like never before. there are more important issues than a bit of cracked ice.

Originally posted by pause4thought
Incidentally no-one has yet risen to this challenge I laid out on page 4: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Fair enough, I'll take a shot at this. Texas Oilman Invests 2 Billion into Wind Power.

Whether or not his action is altruistic in nature may be debatable, but there is one example...

What I find interesting above all is that after all the pissing and moaning around here about the lack of investment into alternative energy (myself included), this recent thread about a substantial investment into renewable energy recieved exactly one reply.

Post a thread about how terrible things are and it will go for pages. Post another one about something positive and "no comment" seems to be the rule. I've seen this time and time again here and elsewhere. I suppose it's just human nature, it is difficult for us to see the roses if we spend all of our time digging through the trash.

As for the topic at hand, I wanted to post this link to a recent senate report on global warming. It's hefty, but for those who believe that there is any kind of concensus at all, I think you would find this report to be very enlightening.

U.S. Senate Report: Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007 PDF: 175 pages.

HTML Version

There is not, nor has there ever been a concensus regarding global warming as many proponents have claimed in the past.

Its late and I just found this topic so I'll keep my post short and sweet.

I'd highly suggest reading up on the Medieval Warm Period.
www.windows.ucar.edu...

[edit on 26-5-2008 by Xabora]

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

scientists say that sea levels are rising and the east coast of england is proof of that 'cause of the coastal erosion going on there, what they seem to forget is that the uk is tilting...

I wondered why I keep falling over.

harlech castle in wales (the west coast of the uk) used to have the sea lapping at its foundations now the sea is several hundred yards at least away.

I was tempted to say silting could be a major factor. However when I thought about it, Harlech castle is highly elevated, overlooking the sea from a very considerable height. I find it difficult to believe it wasn't constructed high up in order to benefit from a commanding view of the surrounding coastline. Googling your claim now.

I stand corrected. Fascinating. Confirmed it here. The tilting issue is clearly worth researching. You should stop hiding behind a mask and join ATS.

To top it all, thoughts of Harlech Castle and its breathtaking surroundings have really cheered me up. Non-UK-readers: if you haven't explored North Wales - especially the North West, you haven't lived. Trust me.

View this for a small glimpse. Rugged mountains spattered with trout and salmon-infested streams, unspoilt beaches, swimming at Abersoch or the south beach at Llangollen, unbelievable views from the Great Orme, the magic of the Snowdonia mountain range National Park... Hallelujah!

PS The water is cold, but it's getting warmer every year.



reply to post by SystemiK


'Texas Oilman Invests 2 Billion into Wind Power'? Sounds like he knows something about Texan oil the rest of us don't...

Seriously, though, that is an inspiring story, and I for one intend to check it out. Anyone who puts their money where their mouth is deserves respect.

Regarding the U.S. Senate Report you referenced:

1) I intend to read it in its entirety.

2) I will try to assess the degree to which the contributors are truly eminent scientists.

3) 400 scientists is not actually a large number, neither is 400 published articles.

4) I think it should be borne in mind it is a government report: it is certainly not agenda-free. That in itself does not make the science unreliable, however, and I'll study it with an open mind. Thanks.

I'll just add that I thought this link provided by Locus Iste on page 8 was an absolute must read: www.smh.com.au... even though it didn't provoke any comment.

I may have given the impression that I am persuaded climate change is totally due to human activity. In reality I believe carbon-based economies are at least a major contributor, but I know far too little to form any firm judgement, so I'm going to keep searching and listening.



reply to post by Xabora


Thanks for that link - the site looks very original and really informative.

geeeesh....reading all the posts on this subject....and over last few years....the one thing that sticks out is....

HOW EVERYONE IS AN EXPERT IN THIS FEILD!

people please note no one knows whats going on...and if you think you know (sun cycles etc.)...guess what....there are 1000's of other factors
to take into account for every one you think of....

So global warming or global chill we just don't know...even with all the
experts saying they know.............we don't just speculation that's all.

But we should def. keep clean,
as always your Canadian friend,
Sven

Pause, I'm a realist, while I do what I can on green issues growing fruit and veg etc. I also know that there are events outside of my/our control and there is nothing I/we can do about it. And when the time comes it will be those who live in and around cities that will suffer the most. Most of the Worlds population lives near water and on land below 1k feet in altitude. Any event in the Worlds oceans would take out hundreds of millions and it will be pure luck as to who survives and who does not.

Plate shifts, the Earth capsizing, solar events, bollide impacts etc. will wup us big time.

Originally posted by InterestedObserver
I can't believe how many ignorant people are still denying that human activities are the prime cause of Global Warming.

And i can't believe that so many human beings are so easily convinced that we are destroying the planet at break neck speed while they can't even seem to understand ( to say nothing of fixing) mundane social economic problems in their various countries

It's astonishing that in the face of such fact they can turn their head and blame it on the sun.

If they believe in global warming, or rather 'climate change' at all!

Are they aware that if their theory was true then the sun would be in a period of increased solar activity right now, not decreased as it is?

What sort of solar activity are we talking about? Since when do we understand everything about the sun or our atmosphere to say nothing of how their interact?

Continue to live in ignorance, driving your big SUV to work at Valero Oil.

Why presume that they are ignorant and not just possibly misinformed? Why presume that right minded people who don't happen to believe in global warming will drive SUV's, refuse to recycle or be wasteful in general ? Why can't i try to save the planet from the real threats which industrialization and progress just does not constitute?

You have nothing to worry about, there's nothing we can do!!!!

There is plenty we can do with or without a reality of global warming and frankly i don't see how scaring people is going to make them act any more effectively than fear normally drives people to. We don't need less SUV's but one's that don't use oil and we certainly don't need to recycle when the energy employed to do so is derived from burning coal! Having people running around doing things is exactly what they want us to do but since their advice clearly wont change much anything i suppose we should rather investigate their motivates than the human societies that never asked for industries that pollute to make a few extra cents.

Stellar

[edit on 26-5-2008 by StellarX]

Originally posted by Locus Iste
reply to post by Animal

 

In meteorology there is law called "Butterfly effect" It's claiming that butterfly when it's flying can cause a tornado on the other side of world with it's wings.

Sadly we are not butterflies but our influence is far far greater.

That is the funniest thing I have read. WAIT, are you being serious? Are you for real. OMG, hahahaha, you must be the result of public education.

Well, well, well. Here's an interesting relevant thread I've just come across:

Report Describes Systematic White House Effort
to Manipulate Climate Change Science

www.abovetopsecret.com...


I agree with the shrewd comment from apc on page 1 of the thread that it is probably political spin rather than evidence of a conspiracy. Interesting nonetheless...

I've been reading a lot about 'Cosmic Rays' recently, and the research done at the Danish National Space Centre and also CERN. It does very much seem that humans have far over estimated their impact on climate change.

To be quite honest I was never comfortable with the whole 'humans cause global warming' thing. For one, much of the recent data from Antarctica suggests that in the last few years it has actually been getting colder. The Arctic is indeed melting rather quickly, but the media tend to portray it, and the public tend to assume as if the same is happening in Antarctica - but it quite simply is not. I have a very close family friend who is right now, as I type this, working with the BAS in Antarctica doing research into this exact thing. She is absolutely adament that it is cooling down there.

Sure some big ice has broken off in the last few years, but it is definately now cooling and the penguins are even having to walk further for food (think March of the Perguins) because the ice is expanding!

The people who think that the climate can be 'kept stable' are misguided at best, and extremely dangerous at worst. The climate is an ever changing, frequently violent, and very much cosmicaly influenced beast. People are not even the equivilant of a fly on a pile of turd. We have been on Earth for the equivilant of 30 seconds in relative terms to the age of the planet. These environmentalists are fond of using averages and measurements that go back 'since records began' ie. around a few hundred years. Please people get a grip - thats not even enough to get a vague picture. The only way we get a clear picture is by analysing data over billions of years, and to do that we have to drill deep and look into space also. Those who do that have now accepted that man made climate change is a fraud.

Believe me I'm not saying all this to justify the oil companies or president Bush - I'm saying this because catacylsmic climate change is going to happen whatever we do, and the best way to spend our resources now will be to prepare to mitigate the consequences. Throwing money, time and resources down the drain trying to 'prevent' climate change is not just a waste, its a immoral, almost criminal excuse to make a bunch of 'do gooders' feel useful.

Rather ironically, the latest data that I am seeing suggests that if anything the world may well be about to enter another ice age rather than burn up.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

These environmentalists are fond of using averages and measurements that go back 'since records began' ie. around a few hundred years. Please people get a grip - thats not even enough to get a vague picture. The only way we get a clear picture is by analysing data over billions of years...

You DIRECTLY CONTRADICT YOUR OWN PREMISE in the same post:

I have a very close family friend who is right now, as I type this, working with the BAS in Antarctica doing research into this exact thing. She is absolutely adament that it is cooling down there.

I'm sorry, but you do not convince me one iota. You appear to be clutching at straws: billions of years this, my friend in Antarctica that.

Throwing money, time and resources down the drain trying to 'prevent' climate change is not just a waste, its a immoral, almost criminal excuse to make a bunch of 'do gooders' feel useful.

I'm a run-of-the-mill ordinary citizen, concerned about the damage big industry and carbon-based economies as a whole do to this planet. Your pejorative, patronizing tone only serves to deepen my conviction that those who back the interests of corporations over and above the environment - not an abstract 'cause', but the air we breathe and the climate that affects people's lives - have to rely on obfuscation and spin with regards to the facts in order to pull the wool over people's eyes, and on derogatory comments to bully and intimidate.

The 'billions' I'm interested in are not dollars. They are people.