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Burma: We'd rather let people die than allow U.S. aid
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reply to post by khunmoon
You left out the part about China and India. This is pre-cyclone (during the September civil unrest):
The reason why China isn't doing more is because they don't want to upset they're own national interests. China is the nation that can truly effect the Junta.
At this point people should realize that strategic interests in oil and gas are more important to the ruling classes than peasants. That's an unfortunate reality. You can't blame specific countries. All of us "regular" people are grieving for the victims while our governments are positioning themselves to benefit from it.
It's happened this way as long as ruling classes have existed.
You left out the part about China and India. This is pre-cyclone (during the September civil unrest):
CNN
"The Chinese prefer to separate business and politics," said Kuen-Wook Paik, an energy analyst at Chatham House, a think tank in London. "They want to take a neutral stance. They don't want to risk the relationship with the Myanmar authorities."
But China's chief interest, analysts say, may lie in its strategic location as a site for pipelines to move oil and gas shipped from the Middle East to southern China, avoiding the Malacca Straits. Beijing worries the straits could be closed off by the U.S. Navy in a conflict.
By building a pipeline, "you start stitching together a crisis management capability," said William Overholt, director of the Center for Asia Pacific Policy at RAND Corp., an American think tank.
Beyond interests in exploration blocks in the Bay of Bengal off Myanmar, India also plans to build a pipeline to eastern India, but disagreements with Bangladesh have delayed the plans.
India is not facing any diplomatic pressure to reduce investment in the country, said R.S. Sharma, chairman of the state-run Oil and Natural Gas Corp.
"There is a trade-off between the two: That is a moralistic position and these strategic interests," said Muchkund Dubey, president of the Council for Social Development, a New Delhi think tank, and the former top bureaucrat at India's Foreign Ministry.
Thailand's PTTEP, a partner in Total's Yadana and Petronas' Yetagun gas projects, said in a statement that production of natural gas is at the normal rate, and should not be affected by the unrest.
"It is business as usual," said Sidhichai Jayamt, the company's manager for external relations. "When we have a contract with the government, it doesn't really matter who the government is."
The reason why China isn't doing more is because they don't want to upset they're own national interests. China is the nation that can truly effect the Junta.
At this point people should realize that strategic interests in oil and gas are more important to the ruling classes than peasants. That's an unfortunate reality. You can't blame specific countries. All of us "regular" people are grieving for the victims while our governments are positioning themselves to benefit from it.
It's happened this way as long as ruling classes have existed.
reply to post by PistolPete
What happened in New Orleans after Katrina is a testament to that. In a natural disaster such as Katrina, the poor suffer, die, and are forced to loot food to survive while the rich bring in their security contractors to guard their homes. Let's not forget this happened in our own country. Our government's negligence resulted in death and chaos while the rich sat happy in their homes. I think the Blackwater contractors were even there before FEMA!
Let's not also forget that we, as americans, criticise this country for not accepting Foregin aid when our country did the same damn thing after Katrina.
I'm not saying that Burmese dictators are right to let innocent people starve and die while the government denies aid. But the point is that these are all things that have happened in our own country and all the same decisions have been made by our own political leaders.
-ChriS
What happened in New Orleans after Katrina is a testament to that. In a natural disaster such as Katrina, the poor suffer, die, and are forced to loot food to survive while the rich bring in their security contractors to guard their homes. Let's not forget this happened in our own country. Our government's negligence resulted in death and chaos while the rich sat happy in their homes. I think the Blackwater contractors were even there before FEMA!
Let's not also forget that we, as americans, criticise this country for not accepting Foregin aid when our country did the same damn thing after Katrina.
I'm not saying that Burmese dictators are right to let innocent people starve and die while the government denies aid. But the point is that these are all things that have happened in our own country and all the same decisions have been made by our own political leaders.
-ChriS
wutone damned if we do damned if we don't is initially understood. I find all life (except spiders) and millipedes sancrosant. To 'allow' 100's of
thousand die by inaction of sanctions is bastardising our nation.
reply to post by wutone
That's because we live in a Democracy and we're supposed to be able to vote for and have a say in the things that we'd like to see happen in our world and in our country.
That's because we live in a Democracy and we're supposed to be able to vote for and have a say in the things that we'd like to see happen in our world and in our country.
reply to post by bodrul
I am sure if the UN gave us permission the USA would gladly test out our new weapon systems on the government of Myanmar. But until that happens I doubt we will do much. We dont need to give the rest of the world one more thing to whine about.
I do agree with whoever said we should just air drop supplies. I think we should do it with a note attached about how they would have gotten it sooner if their leaders werent selfish idiots.
I am sure if the UN gave us permission the USA would gladly test out our new weapon systems on the government of Myanmar. But until that happens I doubt we will do much. We dont need to give the rest of the world one more thing to whine about.
I do agree with whoever said we should just air drop supplies. I think we should do it with a note attached about how they would have gotten it sooner if their leaders werent selfish idiots.
You guys are killing me.
"Why doesn't the U.S. just go ahead and violate another nations sovereignty and drop food?"
Talk about darned if you do and darned if you don't.
This nation hates the U.S. and will let its peole die rather then accept U.S. help. Doesn't that tell you its mindset?
Why are you not complaining about the death rate in North Korea? Let's just air drop food there?
"Why doesn't the U.S. just go ahead and violate another nations sovereignty and drop food?"
Talk about darned if you do and darned if you don't.
This nation hates the U.S. and will let its peole die rather then accept U.S. help. Doesn't that tell you its mindset?
Why are you not complaining about the death rate in North Korea? Let's just air drop food there?
reply to post by jpm1602
How many hundreds of thousands will die if we force aid on Burma may I ask?
How many hundreds of thousands will die if we force aid on Burma may I ask?
What is needed is what amounts to a "military act of mercy", where a concerted INTERNATIONAL military effort to take down Myanmar's dictators
should be implemented.
This might sound paradoxical, but perhaps this could be a case of taking lives in order to save even more lives.
The people of Myanmar are in desperate need of help, and their military masters are doing everything in their power to block that help.
There's a saying, "There's no law against killing a mad dog", and Myanmar's military dictators have proven time and again they they themselves are that "mad dog"!!
Perhaps this time around, war can actually do some good. The military dictators of Myanmar have almost literally drawn the proverbial "line in the sand", barring the world from helping to ease what is clearly an ongoing humanitarian catastrophe.
The time to act is now, and since force is the only thing the dictatorship seems to understand, then military force should be used against them, literally paving the way for those who can really help the people of Myanmar in their time of greatest need.
This might sound paradoxical, but perhaps this could be a case of taking lives in order to save even more lives.
The people of Myanmar are in desperate need of help, and their military masters are doing everything in their power to block that help.
There's a saying, "There's no law against killing a mad dog", and Myanmar's military dictators have proven time and again they they themselves are that "mad dog"!!
Perhaps this time around, war can actually do some good. The military dictators of Myanmar have almost literally drawn the proverbial "line in the sand", barring the world from helping to ease what is clearly an ongoing humanitarian catastrophe.
The time to act is now, and since force is the only thing the dictatorship seems to understand, then military force should be used against them, literally paving the way for those who can really help the people of Myanmar in their time of greatest need.
Many would think Burma to be a 'cake walk', but that's not quite true. even a UN sanctioned incursion would be dangerous;
(bolding mine)
The above link gives some interesting statistics of their defenses. Unauthorized overflights will certainly be challenged. To get the aid to the people in need will also require 'boots on the ground' and THAT could result in another Viet Nam quagmire.
Some more stats for military manpower;
www.cia.gov...
Now, put all that together with the fact that they have allies in the region who are also not very 'friendly' to the West (ie Indo0nesia) and you could truly be poking a rattlesnake with a short twig.
The Army has always been by far the largest service in Myanmar and has always received the lion's share of the defence budget.[1][2] It has played the most prominent part in Myanmar's struggle against the 40 or more insurgent groups since 1948 and acquired a reputation as a tough and resourceful military force. In 1981, it was described as 'probably the best [army] in Southeast Asia, apart from Vietnam's'.[3] The judgement was echoed in 1983, when another observer noted that "Myanmar's infantry is generally rated as one of the toughest, most combat seasoned in Southeast Asia".[4]
en.wikipedia.org...
(bolding mine)
The above link gives some interesting statistics of their defenses. Unauthorized overflights will certainly be challenged. To get the aid to the people in need will also require 'boots on the ground' and THAT could result in another Viet Nam quagmire.
Some more stats for military manpower;
www.cia.gov...
Now, put all that together with the fact that they have allies in the region who are also not very 'friendly' to the West (ie Indo0nesia) and you could truly be poking a rattlesnake with a short twig.
reply to post by crmanager
Ok, I am going to rant and try to stay on topic:
A part of me says that someone should go in and help. Along these lines, I want to tell the people who think that no one wants to help geniunely to go fly a kite.
Another part of me says if the government of Burma is willing to down airplanes dropping aid that we should just not help at all.
Yes I live in the US. No, I really don't care what you think about the US because 99.9% of Americans have little influence over the issues that affect world perception of the United States.
I personally believe that some elections in the US are real. I also think several are fixed (ie important issues, Presidential election, etc).
Oh yeah, another part of me says that the aid transports should have military escort. Why not take out their anti aircraft batteries or Air Force if they attack you? Don't know really confused about this. People are born into the world in different situations. Where you end up initially is really of no choice. It boils down to playing best with the cards you are dealt with.
Having said this, I feel everyone loses in the Burma scenario. I feel for the citizens and victims. I loathe the government that refuses aid.
We live in a cruel world.
Ok, I am going to rant and try to stay on topic:
A part of me says that someone should go in and help. Along these lines, I want to tell the people who think that no one wants to help geniunely to go fly a kite.
Another part of me says if the government of Burma is willing to down airplanes dropping aid that we should just not help at all.
Yes I live in the US. No, I really don't care what you think about the US because 99.9% of Americans have little influence over the issues that affect world perception of the United States.
I personally believe that some elections in the US are real. I also think several are fixed (ie important issues, Presidential election, etc).
Oh yeah, another part of me says that the aid transports should have military escort. Why not take out their anti aircraft batteries or Air Force if they attack you? Don't know really confused about this. People are born into the world in different situations. Where you end up initially is really of no choice. It boils down to playing best with the cards you are dealt with.
Having said this, I feel everyone loses in the Burma scenario. I feel for the citizens and victims. I loathe the government that refuses aid.
We live in a cruel world.
I wouldn't blame them if he thinks that way....
However, why does he believe the US will attach strings to the aid?
However, why does he believe the US will attach strings to the aid?
The time to act is now, and since force is the only thing the dictatorship seems to understand, then military force should be used against them, literally paving the way for those who can really help the people of Myanmar in their time of greatest need.
The logistics of carrying out a military assault to feed the people of Burma will take weeks, months if undertaken by anybody else other than the U.S. or NATO.
By the time any effective force is ready, many people will have died already.
When this rescue force is ready to strike, is it gonna attack Burmese forces hiding among civilians?
Is this rescue force gonna drop some bombs on anti-aircraft batteries that happen to be on top of hospitals and schools?
I can keep going with the complications of this situation. This rescue force, international coalition to feed people, or whatever anyone wants to call it might as well define it for what it is, an invasion.
Invasions=dead people.
And air-dropping food? I hope the Burmese are ok with that or else the air-dropping planes better be stealth bombers because all that food is gonna be useless in a fiery crash.
[edit on 22-5-2008 by wutone]
Originally posted by wutone
The time to act is now, and since force is the only thing the dictatorship seems to understand, then military force should be used against them, literally paving the way for those who can really help the people of Myanmar in their time of greatest need.
The logistics of carrying out a military assault to feed the people of Burma will take weeks, months if undertaken by anybody else other than the U.S. or NATO.
By the time any effective force is ready, many people will have died already.
When this rescue force is ready to strike, is it gonna attack Burmese forces hiding among civilians?
Is this rescue force gonna drop some bombs on anti-aircraft batteries that happen to be on top of hospitals and schools?
I can keep going with the complications of this situation. This rescue force, international coalition to feed people, or whatever anyone wants to call it might as well define it for what it is, an invasion.
Invasions=dead people.
And air-dropping food? I hope the Burmese are ok with that or else the air-dropping planes better be stealth bombers because all that food is gonna be useless in a fiery crash.
[edit on 22-5-2008 by wutone]
Well, then let's do nothing!!!
That's what the dictators of Myanmar wants the rest of the world to do!!
They are not going to permit massive international emergency aid! And you just can't send in all of those emergency responders into Myanmar without providing protection for them! Not with the mindset of Myanmar's dictators.
But go ahead, trust the dictators of Myanmar to do as they're doing now! You've become a valuable ally in their war on their own people!! They may even make you a general in Myanmar's army!
Halfway measures will NOT help the people of Myanmar!
Respecting the wishes (and the territorial integrity) of Myanmar's dictators will only play into their blood-stained hands! If Myanmar's people are going to die, don't let them die without hope!
Doing nothing, with fear of possible negative consequences will only keep the people of Myanmar in the same dire situation they face now.
reply to post by Quarantine
wow...the human race amazes me on how evil and/or twisted it can be.
some governments are wow...just wow..how can you not care about people like that?
if i was a leader of government my main priority would be to take care of my people...
when are the governments going to change? will they ever change?
what is our future?
edit= i would do air drops with food/water all day and all night if needed.
governments have the power to do so,but fail
edit= we need help...
www.youtube.com...
www.geocities.com...
www.petitiononline.com...
[edit on 23-5-2008 by Skipper1975]
[edit on 23-5-2008 by Skipper1975]
wow...the human race amazes me on how evil and/or twisted it can be.
some governments are wow...just wow..how can you not care about people like that?
if i was a leader of government my main priority would be to take care of my people...
when are the governments going to change? will they ever change?
what is our future?
edit= i would do air drops with food/water all day and all night if needed.
governments have the power to do so,but fail
edit= we need help...
www.youtube.com...
www.geocities.com...
www.petitiononline.com...
[edit on 23-5-2008 by Skipper1975]
[edit on 23-5-2008 by Skipper1975]
reply to post by Skipper1975
All I can say is that this is a completely different world with completely different cultural values and a completely different outlook on politics. It's hard to grasp what countries like this are really going through unless you've been in places like this. Burma has been a dictatorship run by the military for the better part of 50 years. These people have probably seen hardship that we could only imagine and that's before this cyclone hit. For alot of people this cyclone meant death but if it also means the end of an evil dictatorship then so be it. In that aspect it could eventually be a good thing if that happens.
When I was in the Air Force stationed in South Korea I saw kids brushing their teeth in gutter water and the community using it's own open sewage system to fertilize their rice fields. I didn't know what to do with myself I was just completely culture-shocked. And South Korea is a nation that is pretty well-off even though they're still developing.
I don't think people realize just how blessed we are to be here where we don't have to worry about any of that. At least not right now.
These people are seeing suffering and death that we can only imagine. People have died and are going to die because these dictators are trying to save their hides.
-ChriS
[edit on 23-5-2008 by BlasteR]
All I can say is that this is a completely different world with completely different cultural values and a completely different outlook on politics. It's hard to grasp what countries like this are really going through unless you've been in places like this. Burma has been a dictatorship run by the military for the better part of 50 years. These people have probably seen hardship that we could only imagine and that's before this cyclone hit. For alot of people this cyclone meant death but if it also means the end of an evil dictatorship then so be it. In that aspect it could eventually be a good thing if that happens.
When I was in the Air Force stationed in South Korea I saw kids brushing their teeth in gutter water and the community using it's own open sewage system to fertilize their rice fields. I didn't know what to do with myself I was just completely culture-shocked. And South Korea is a nation that is pretty well-off even though they're still developing.
I don't think people realize just how blessed we are to be here where we don't have to worry about any of that. At least not right now.
These people are seeing suffering and death that we can only imagine. People have died and are going to die because these dictators are trying to save their hides.
-ChriS
[edit on 23-5-2008 by BlasteR]
The United Nations need to stand up now .. have all countries within it contribute and land on their shores in droves. Burma does not have any right
to deny the poor, sick, elderly and homeless the right to equality throughout their country or anywhere else. It amounts to genocide.
All countries need to step up, and not worry about the little hatchets in the hands of the burmese armies.
All countries need to step up, and not worry about the little hatchets in the hands of the burmese armies.
reply to post by ChuckAnderson
So what do you want to do, declare war?
You think less people will die?
And whats with this pick and choose war targets? Guess who will have to contribute the most and pay the most for the war? Guess whose troops will die?
If something needs to be done, why don't I see any action from any country? Are they waiting for the U.S.? The number one imperialist? The country run by war-mongers? The military that kills civilians?
Myanmar is not setting up concentration camps, they are not invading anyone, and they are not building nukes, they just don't trust anyone.
Unless its ok to invade because their are people starving. Do you realize that that can be a convenient precedent to invade other countries with starving civilians and lots of oil?
So what do you want to do, declare war?
You think less people will die?
And whats with this pick and choose war targets? Guess who will have to contribute the most and pay the most for the war? Guess whose troops will die?
If something needs to be done, why don't I see any action from any country? Are they waiting for the U.S.? The number one imperialist? The country run by war-mongers? The military that kills civilians?
Myanmar is not setting up concentration camps, they are not invading anyone, and they are not building nukes, they just don't trust anyone.
Unless its ok to invade because their are people starving. Do you realize that that can be a convenient precedent to invade other countries with starving civilians and lots of oil?
Originally posted by FunnyGirl101
The United Nations need to stand up now .. have all countries within it contribute and land on their shores in droves. Burma does not have any right to deny the poor, sick, elderly and homeless the right to equality throughout their country or anywhere else. It amounts to genocide.
All countries need to step up, and not worry about the little hatchets in the hands of the burmese armies.
The UN? The blue hats that can't do anything but rape little girls in Africa?
"All countries" standing up? Yea why not as long as its not only the U.S. doing all the work and the American tax payer footing the bill while American sons die.
Why can't ASEAN, the Shanghai 5, or the E.U. start right now?
And speaking of going in there with guns blazing
news.yahoo.com...
Looks like the Myanmar government is loosing up. I hope this will help
news.yahoo.com...
U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, on a mission to open Myanmar to international disaster assistance, said the ruling junta agreed Friday to allow "all aid workers" into the country to help cyclone survivors.
Looks like the Myanmar government is loosing up. I hope this will help
It is important who provides the weaponry to the junta and I would like to see more information on the topic. The countries that sold the weapons are
also accountable for the killings of the hundreds of thousands people.
A quick search in Google reveals the following:
www.atimes.com...
Proof of this is the fact that although China has provided Myanmar with between US$1.4 and $1.6 billion worth of military hardware since 1989, the regime has in more recent years turned to Russia, the Ukraine and even North Korea to diversify its arms procurement program and lessen its dependence on Chinese suppliers.
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
A quick search in Google reveals the following:
www.atimes.com...
Proof of this is the fact that although China has provided Myanmar with between US$1.4 and $1.6 billion worth of military hardware since 1989, the regime has in more recent years turned to Russia, the Ukraine and even North Korea to diversify its arms procurement program and lessen its dependence on Chinese suppliers.
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
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