Current model of Nibiru debunked?

Stared and flagged! excellent work on this thread.Finally we may have some closure on this hoax.I have been trying to explain for a while now that there is no real science in the Nibiru(planet-x) theory.Thanks to Zechariah Sitchen who claims to be an ancient text translator and really only has a degree in economic history! we have been cursed with this for a while now.

I give him credit for doing very thorough research on Sumer, Akkad, India, Egypt, and Babylon, and for bringing up some interesting points, but the Nibiru thing is just not convincing.

reply to post by undo

Fore sure, he is an intelligent man, an intelligent man with a wild imagination. But he is not a scholar of Sumerian and Akkadian. Sitchin has never received any formal training in Sumerology or Assyriology - he is an autodidact (self taught). I also found this quote from him to be interesting:

"There are two dozen or more books that are based on my books. These are in theology, astrology, and so on and so forth, and I am sure there are many more about which I don't know. They refer to my writings or are based on them. I provide the facts as I see them, and everyone is free to interpret them as they wish."

Source



[edit on 22/5/08 by Agent Venom]

Well, I'm not a scholar in the "formal" sense either but I do study alot. I have more time to devote to it than many who have degrees on similar subjects. A degree is a good thing to have but some without a degree in a subject, can be better or more thoroughly studied based solely on intelligence, determination, time constraints, access to data, and so forth. I don't discount Sitchin because he's not degreed. There's alot he says that I find quite valid, but this Nibiru thing just doesn't seem to be supported by the available information.

[edit on 22-5-2008 by undo]

Great post!

I will not theorize about what if... I'll talk about scientific proofs.

The first fact and more important is that there're no changes in the planets orbits. A very massive object more or less like Jupiter will cause notable changes in the planet orbits. I can tell it isn't happening.

It will be a disaster for the solar system dynamics if such a massive object with this orbit completes one orbit every 3600 years. If that happened in the past there must be a lot changes in the orbits of the planets. For example the orbits of the planets must be more eccentric and probably the inclination will be increased.

Every planet in the solar system has Lagrangian points in which there are always dust clouds or asteroids. We haven’t found these objects on the supposed orbit.

Another important fact is that nobody of the thousands of amateur astronomers around the world has seen the planet X.

reply to post by undo

So how do you feel about Sitchin's claims of the Annunaki coming to Earth some 450,000 years ago and created humans by genetic engineering of female apes? Also Sitchin's theories of Nibiru having "an atmosphere of gold particles and is one of the reasons why they came to Earth, to mine for gold." I find it fascinating that these "flesh and blood gods" have the technology for space travel yet used primitive stone tools to mine for gold! Sitchin's writings on the so-called "constructions of a rocket ship" is also fascinating as the "rocket ship" is made from bricks and mortar!

Source

All these arguments remind me of that one explaining why humans shouldn't be able to fly. The proof of the pudding is in the eating! Sitchin didn't invent Nibiru, the Sumerians did. And there are several Sumerian texts detailing the life of the "Gods" on Nibiru before they came to earth. And also the Egyptians refer to Nibiru as "the planet of a million years." But hey, they didn't do the math before they decided on those beliefs.

Originally posted by Ameneter
And there are several Sumerian texts detailing the life of the "Gods" on Nibiru before they came to earth. And also the Egyptians refer to Nibiru as "the planet of a million years."
.

Can you link up the text with the life of the gods on nibiru?

Originally posted by Agent Venom
reply to post by undo

 

So how do you feel about Sitchin's claims of the Annunaki coming to Earth some 450,000 years ago and created humans by genetic engineering of female apes? Also Sitchin's theories of Nibiru having "an atmosphere of gold particles and is one of the reasons why they came to Earth, to mine for gold." I find it fascinating that these "flesh and blood gods" have the technology for space travel yet used primitive stone tools to mine for gold! Sitchin's writings on the so-called "constructions of a rocket ship" is also fascinating as the "rocket ship" is made from bricks and mortar!

Source

Well you'd be surprised what I think, probably Or maybe not.

According to my research from various ancient texts, this is not our home planet. We were brought here as slaves. This planet belonged to the reptiles and the reptilians, before us. I think the flesh and blood reference indicates they were created, physical beings, who used advanced technology to mimic acts of God. In biblical texts they are called angels and sons of God/ The etymology of the word seraph (plural seraphim) leads me to believe some of these sons of God were a prior creation of reptilians who were and are the primary owners of this planet.

reply to post by undo

I'll have to do a search and get back to you on this. Sitchin accessed these in "THE LOST BOOK OF ENKI" (2002 Bear & Co). He failed however to list the individual sources in this book. I'm going to try to contact him to see if I could also see the references. Why then do I accept his word? Because in every instance that I have accessed previous references (in English) he was accurate in his citation. I did this when I first started reading his work to check on his accuracy.

reply to post by Ameneter


Yes and the other problem is, that the Lost Books of Enki are fiction and he may have embellished that idea into the text for drama purpose or ease of storytelling. Or it may have just been a theory he had but could not substantiate./

[edit on 22-5-2008 by undo]

Originally posted by Ameneter
All these arguments remind me of that one explaining why humans shouldn't be able to fly. The proof of the pudding is in the eating! Sitchin didn't invent Nibiru, the Sumerians did.

Well, the used the name Nibiru to describe the planet Jupiter. Not sure if I;d say that was quite the same as 'inventing Nibiru'

And there are several Sumerian texts detailing the life of the "Gods" on Nibiru before they came to earth.

Find one

And also the Egyptians refer to Nibiru as "the planet of a million years." But hey, they didn't do the math before they decided on those beliefs.

Evidence? Presumably since Nibiru was a Sumerian name for Jupiter the Egyptian texts also referred to Jupiter?

reply to post by Agent Venom


Frankly mate, i would not worry too immensely about the so called 'hoax' explanations or anything agreeing with the alleged planet Niribu. According to everything I have read for and against it, and everything I have read about the Mayan calendars, etc. we will find out shortly who knows what they are talking about and Who is a load of bullocks.
cheers

Hello, Planet X does concern/scare me. When i heard that NASA's IRAS satellite 'found' something that they thought might be coming this way and then soon changed their story, i became aprehensive and thought about the Air Force and Roswell. U know how the gov't is and how they will obscure the truth when it is to its' benefit.
Anyway, i would like to add this. I recently read someplace on the web re: Nibiru and this the site mentioned that Nibiru was the last planet of a group of planets that was potentially coming this way. That the brown dwarf star was leading the way and a few planets were revolving around it. that Nibiru was the outter most planet and that it was inhabited by supposedly the Anannaki. I am confused. Am i wrong here in this assumption?
btw, i worked for NASA in the 80's and found them to be only politically motivated and driven by PR. they had sooooo much information buried away in some where house someplace. I remember reading an article from the local paper in Brevard saying this. How so much good data and information was just rotting away, that was in the '88 or '89 time frame.

What I have given to the Nibiru people this time is mathematical proof that a planet the size of Nibiru could never escape the gravity well of the sun on its previous passes on an orbit that close.

I'm not sure what the guy is talking about here. As far as I am aware, nobody has claimed that Nibiru will escape from the Sun's "gravity well". The velocity only needs to be great enough for it to require 3600 years to make one full orbit. The fact that it supposedly gets as close as 1AU to the Sun at perihelion is totally irrelevant.

Of course, Nibiru doesn't exist. I'm simply trying to say that using blatantly incorrect calculations to "prove" that fact will get the scientific community absolutely nowhere.

reply to post by behindthescenes

I think what's noteworthy here is how little serious argument is put forward in defence of the Nibiru theory (if I can call it that, since theory in my dictionary as "a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena" - which it seems to me is exactly what the Nibiru nonsense is not) on this thread so far.

Sadly, I suspect that when Nibiru "theorists" do latch on to it, it will be to pick up on a mistake in the mathematics, or to pick holes in the physics of what is posted here. Having done so, they will attempt to use any inaccuracies as further "proof" of the existence of their imagined planet.

To some extent, though I admire your studied examination of the topic, Agent Venom, I think you do no good by giving the topic the dignity of analysis. The burden of proof is not with those who contend that "Planet X" does not exist - it is with those who argue that it does. And in all the hundreds of threads that have been started on this topic both on these boards and elsewhere, that is something nobody has been able to do.

Behindthescenes' quotation of the redoubtable David Morrison's response to this silly idea sums up the point perfectly well. If this were any other topic in any other forum it would have been dropped ages ago, and vanished without trace - because there's no evidence for it. The real conspiracy here is how this absurd myth has been perpetuated by irresponsible people who seek either financial or egotistical gain from doing so.

Sadly, as long as there are people willing to believe in something simply because it's an exciting idea, and as long as there are other people willing to indulge and exploit them - such trivial matters as scientific evidence and the practicalities of physics are unlikely to make any headway.

LW

Escape velocity is what is needed to escape the surface, not to leave orbit. So the math would be to escape the surface of the Sun. That is why the numbers are so high. Orbit and escape velocity are two separate things. Any object in orbit has not cleared the gravity well. Earth is in the Sun's gravity well, as well as comets. The orbit path is different though. I know this will be confusing, but it is the mass of the Sun that is important, not the escaping object for speed. Escape velocity of the Sun is 617.5 km/s. When you are near Earth, the escape velocity of the Sun is reduced to around 40 km/s. Near Neptune is around 7 km/s. Basically put, too close to the Sun and your not getting away. It also matters where it is relative to the rotation of the Sun, and direction.

In reality, an object can move 1 foot a minute and still escape gravity as long as there is sufficient energy to keep the movement. Just happens most planets don't have an engine pushing them along

Even with that being said...Nibiru and it's crazy orbit just don't make sense. This isn't a post to prove Nibiru's existence, but to help clear up the misconception of escape velocity, and speed, and orbits.

Nibiru is not fictitious, it is a reference to jupiter when it crosses a specific meridian in the sky. It means "place of the crossing," just like Nibru (without the second "I") means the place of the crossing, not the planet of the crossing. PLACE. not. planet. If they insist on adding planet to the statement, the only correct way to state it would be: Planet Jupiter at the place of the crossing.

So Nibiru is not fictitious, as it is a reference to Jupiter when it reaches a specific location in the sky, during its transit. It had different names as it crossed the night sky, each relative to its position. Nibiru was just one of those positions in the sky. this from babylonian astronomy texts and sumerian-akkadian texts on the subject

Marduk and Nibiru are different names for Jupiter according to the Babylonian Astrologers who were the astronomers of their time and who also followed the naming scheme of the ones before them. Does sitchin think they are lying?
Marduk is its name when it is shining very brightly.
Nibiru is its name when it is on the meridian.
Sagmagir (SAG.ME.GAR) is its name when its risen for 2-4 hours (or some such).
It's also called Umunpauddu when it first rises.
Not sure what all that means, I'm just wondering why sitchin thinks the guys who studied the skies and listed the names of the planets and stars they saw, would lie about something like that?

It makes sense if you consider Enlil's city in Sumer was called NIBRU as well, as he was associated with Jupiter (Nibiru).

I see no reason to assume the information was incorrectly stated by the babylonians. They were astrologers, so his belief that monotheists screwed it up would have to assume the astrologers were monotheists.

for example, Sagmigar is Jupiter, which is found in the Mul.Apin Tablets for the "Path of Enlil

Jupiter (SAG.ME.GAR) changes its position continuously, crossing the heavens


So, seems Nibiru is also Jupiter
It just has different names as it moves

The Path of Enlil from the Mul.Apin Tablet
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Jupiter (Sagmígar, Nibiru, Umunpauddu, Marduk) and Scorpius [Scorpio] in the Halo, Various Names of Jupiter.

Moon Omens
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Jupiter as Marduk, is when Jupiter grows very bright
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Jupiter as Sagmigar, is when Jupiter is in the halo with the moon
Jupiter as Nibiru, is also when Jupiter is in the halo with the moon (and on the meridian)
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apparently this is due to change of position and also the various omens it portends for the King.


[edit on 23-5-2008 by undo]

"No. 94. Last night a halo surrounded the Moon, and Jupiter (Sagmigar) and Scorpio stood within it. When a halo surrounds the Moon and Jupiter (Sagmigar) stands within it, the King of Akkad will be besieged. When a halo surrounds the Moon and Jupiter (Nibiru) stands within it, there will be a slaughter of cattle and beasts of the field. (Marduk is Umunpauddu at its appearance; when it has risen for two (or four?) hours it becomes Sagmigar; when it stands in the meridian it becomes Nibiru. (...)"

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