McCain endorser Rev. John Hagee calls Hitler an Instrument of God

Rofl Lee. Point noted and well taken. Just can't shake the image of Rummy with his arm around Saddam in the 80's. But that's just dorky old me.

reply to post by WickedStar


I don't understand why he said Hitler was an instrument of God. How would he know. Does he have a direct phone line to God??? He is no different than those other preachers saying the same thing. They are all a load of crap and the people seem to just keep on eating it.

McCain sought Hagee in order to get the Pro Israel Religious Right. At the same time Hagee has close ties with a number of Israeli Jews.

What Hagee said was not really out of line from the Orthodox Jewish view and actually was inline with what the Chabad Rebbe said previously.

This is an article from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
"God as surgeon"
www.haaretz.com...

His remarks, Schneerson explained, were based on the Torah. Hitler was a messenger of God in the same sense that Nebuchadnezzar is called "God's servant" in the Book of Jeremiah (chapter 25). The "surgery" he spoke of was such a massive corrective procedure that the suffering (i.e., the murder of the Jews) was minor compared to its curative effect.

It might be a good idea for some people to go and read Deuteronomy 28. If one has faith in the Bible or the Divine depicted in it, well that chapter explains why the Chabad Rebbe and Hagee said and believe that way.

So it may sound horrible but dont be quick to think the idea is somehow alien to the Bible or how the Divine is depicted in the Bible.

You have to look at it from their point of view.

[edit on 21/5/08 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by bigbert81

Well, I'd have to say that the fact that McCain SOUGHT OUT his endorsement puts him on the same level.

Don't you?

McCain thought 'Now THAT is someone I want endorsing my campaign'.

If he knew the guy was saying these things, then yes. I'm more likely to believe that McCain didn't know this guy had some offensive ideas than I am to believe that Obama attended his church actively for 25 years and didn't know his pastor was an extreme racist.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
McCain sought Hagee in order to get the Pro Israel Religious Right. At the same time Hagee has close ties with a number of Israeli Jews.

At the same time he will lose support among Catholics which includes millions of Latinos.

But thats ok because McCain also believes in the religion of global warming, I wonder how many supporters he gets there?

reply to post by MikeboydUS

Is this confirmation of my long held belief that God only uses, idiots, nut cases, fanatics, and extremists to do His dirty work? Is Hagee McCain's John the Baptist announcing the coming of God's new right arm man, McCain, who will finish Bush's extermination program?

reply to post by BlueTriangle


So, your defense is that a presidential candidate, THE presidential candidate for the Republicans DIDN'T know what someone who's endorsement they were seeking out was saying to people?

A bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Okay, I have to add my two cents here.

I can't stand McCain one bit, he's a horrible mistake if elected president... but, on this topic I am going to have to defend him.

This guilt through association stuff has got to stop.

Is it McCain's fault this guy supports him? No. He can't go through the entire country and decide who can and cannot like him.

I'm seeing this stuff on both side in your country.
I read another article bashing that Obama guy for knowing a couple of Muslims...
SO WHAT?!

Does this have ANYTHING to do with the candidates? No, not a damn thing.


Like I said on the other thread... should I discredit you because likely someone you knew once upon a time committed a crime? No... that's absurd. The same rule of thumb applies to political candidates.


McCain could have a brother who eats children, and sacrifices old women... it wouldn't affect my opinion of him in the slightest.

Yes, I wouldn't trust McCain to out a candle out with a fire hose, but this has nothing to do with how you should judge him.

Originally posted by freedomforall
reply to post by WickedStar

 

I don't understand why he said Hitler was an instrument of God. How would he know. Does he have a direct phone line to God??? He is no different than those other preachers saying the same thing. They are all a load of crap and the people seem to just keep on eating it.

But it works the other wasy as well.

How do we know that Hitler was not an instrument of God? Yes, Hitler was evil, but God can use anybody . . .

And who is to say that Katrina was not God's punishment?

reply to post by johnsky


Good post

And I agree - implying that McCain shares Hagee's views is just as unfair as saying Obama shares Wright's... I know a lot of religious folks and plenty don't agree with everything their preachers say at church.

Enough with the guilt by association BS, we should be evaluating the candidates on their own records and statements.

We've got two candidates who, whatever else you might say about them, seem to try to stay on the high road and talk about real issues. That's a nice change in itself.

We should try to follow their example.

[edit on 5/21/08 by xmotex]

I dont think this really makes McCain believe what the Chabad Rebbe or John Hagee thought.

McCain is first and foremost a Politician. There is a influential Southern Conservative base that is Protestant and very pro Israel. John Hagee is at the forefront of this base.

Basically McCain is trying to appeal to this Religious Right. Behind the scenes though he probably ridicules the beliefs of people on the far right.

Both Obama and Clinton are the same, trying to appeal to groups with a false front. All Politicians do it.

Heck I bet alot of them claim to be Christians to get support when in reality many of them are atheists or agnostics.

Originally posted by bigbert81
THE presidential candidate for the Republicans DIDN'T know what someone who's endorsement they were seeking out was saying to people?
A bit of a stretch, don't you think?

No more of a stretch then Obama claiming not to know abuot Uncle Wrights anti-white rants for 20 years. It's a heck of a lot MORE likely that McCain didn't know ... but the truth is that even if he didn't know, he SHOULD have known. Also - If he knew .. then he didn't care about the anti-catholic aspects of Hagee. That is a slap in the face to more than 1/4 of this country.

Either way - if he knew or didn't know - it's still a very bad endorsement to seek and/or accept.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Basically McCain is trying to appeal to this Religious Right.

Which is highly disappointing. Even though I'm not voting for the guy, I thought he would be above that. Guess not ...





[edit on 5/22/2008 by FlyersFan]

Just so you know, John Hagee has denied that Jesus was the messiah. Therefore, by definition, he cannot be called a Christian.

reply to post by sir_chancealot


Can you back up that statement? I have never heard that.

I would like to see some quotes, sources, and the whole thing in Context.

Im with Bodrul on this one.

I think all these controversies surrounding religious endorsements is a clear warning to the political establishment: Dont freaking seek them out.

What I wonder is will McCain still get the far right evangelical vote despite, or because of this endorsement.

I agree that Mr. Hagee's comments are quite offensive, but I fail to see how this is relevant in a political setting. Are we saying that Mr. McCain feels the same way as Mr. Hagee? Let's remember that it wasn't John McCain who said this, it was John Hagee. This reminds me of what Mr. Obama's pastor said. I didn't feel that that was a reflection of Mr. Obama's beliefs.

I'd rather focus on political issues rather than which associate of whom said what.

reply to post by johnsky


I agree with you fully on this... what someone's pastor or friend or whatnot says should not reflect on the candidate (either of them) unless you can prove in something they have actually said or written that they agree.

Then that is another matter all together.

And a star to you for saying so.

[edit on 22-5-2008 by grover]

It is a mistake to take Rev. Hagee's comments and put them in a bubble without Biblical context. Of course they sound outrageous, of course they are offensive. I believe the sensationalism is intentional. Get folks all stirred up about some peripheral player making some inflammatory comment on a controversial subject. Let's spin history and distract from the real issues of the campaign and the real needs of the nation.

Placed in Biblical context, Hagee's comments are along the lines of Nebuchadnezzar taking Judah captive and eventually destroying the First Temple, as noted above. God does use suffering as a motivator, imo, when man fails to follow His commandments. I am not endorsing what Hagee said, but I understand where he is coming from. Other Biblical examples of this tactic would be God's destruction of the Tower of Babel and making language diverse when the children of Noah failed to spread out over the earth and multiply as He commanded, and the persecution of the early Christians in Jerusalem that forced the spread of the Gospel.

Put it in context, then move on to the real issues. This is just a big distraction. Yes, Hagee is a friend of Israel, and an enemy of Catholics. He is not running for office, though. His endorsement isn't helping McCain much either. Unless it is diverting attention from other important issues.

Also, let us not forget that when it comes to the Lord and His will;

Isaiah 40

12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

[edit on 22-5-2008 by Icarus Rising]

What we should really be focusing on is not whether Wright or Hagee is the bigger nut -- or whether Obama or McCain is most to blame for the words of their endorsers. What should really scare the bejeezus out of ALL of us is that religion endorses a belief where untold suffering and the random killing of innocents is a STRATEGY of GOD. WTF?

And if the Holocaust is an example of how God treats his "Chosen People", then we are all screwed, my friends.

Perhaps what we really need to talk about how insane it is that religion inspires us to kill one another in an effort to court God's favor. What happened to the God who wants us to love our enemies and pray for those who curse us? What about turning the other cheek? Having compassion? Only those without sin throwing the first stone? Taking out the log in our own eye before we try to take the speck out of our brother's?

How can a CHRISTIAN minister focus on the old testament when Jesus was allegedly sent here to tell us we got the message wrong? Not an eye for an eye -- but turn the other cheek.

I'm not saying Christianity is superior to any other religion ... I am just confused by this new version of Christianity that seems to toss the teachings of Jesus aside in order to focus on forcing God to bring about Armageddon by putting the Jews in Israel.

Our problem is organized religion. I would feel better if our presidential candidates were to shun all religious endorsements and instead focus on making the world a better place TODAY instead of hoping the world will end and they'll get raptured up -- leaving the rest of us to die a horrible death at the hands of a very ticked off God.

The general consensus on the thread seems to be that it shouldn't matter what a candidate's pastor/friend/whatnot says unless the candidate explicitly endorses that view.
Unfortunately, SHOULDN'T and DOESN'T are worlds apart.

The reason this shouldn't be allowed to slide, in my humblest of opinions, is:
-The ABSURD amount of attention republicans foisted on Rev. Wright's comments. Let the bastards suck up some of their own diversionary tactics. All they could say about Obama before this was that he was inexperienced. That's it. They got more excited than a priest at a playground when crazy racist pastor man came about.
A disclaimer:
I do lean left, but I'm not a democrat. I don't vote, and won't vote, because I believe that voting represents a false choice. So it's not about party affiliation for me.
I just think McCain would kill us all indirectly. I can see it now. "Mr. president, Ahmedinajad has called you a dickhead."
"WHAT?!?!? I'll show that pussy!!!"
---begin nuclear war----