Police fight anti-foreigner violence in S. Africa

It is what it is, and heard what I heard. I'm quite certain audo archives are available on NPR. By all means, don't take my word for it. Listen for yourself by fellow Africans. World have your say. It's all there. Typical, kill the messenger. 'If you say so', you know what stellar? You can eat my shorts, go to npr and do your homework. You've had a problem with me from the getgo and that's fine. I can deal with the likes of you in any forum.
Good day sir.

[edit on 5/20/2008 by jpm1602]

[edit on 5/20/2008 by jpm1602]

Modulus, you say immigrants like they are coming from guatemala or mexico. These are fellow Africans from different provinces.

Originally posted by jpm1602
Modulus, you say immigrants like they are coming from guatemala or mexico. These are fellow Africans from different provinces.

What a typical response You have just shouted out to the world how completely ignorant you are. You may not believe this, but Africa is not in fact a country. It is comprised of 53 countries and thousands of unique cultural identities.

Do yourself a favour and visit these links:

Dctionary entry for Immigrant: They are not Mexicans.

Wikipedia: Africa- It is not a country.

How completely ignorant 'I am'. Not a country seperated by tribal conflict.
Yeppers, I'm the ignoramous. Shout out to the world. A country devided cannot stand, unless machete in hand. 53 ways to kill/leave your lover.

[edit on 5/20/2008 by jpm1602]

[edit on 5/20/2008 by jpm1602]

reply to post by jpm1602


What are you talking about? I might be completely wrong here but I was under the impression that this thread was about the recent spate of xenophobic attacks perpetrated against foreigners in South Africa, particularly Zimbabweans.

If you want to talk about tribal politics and the divisions within our ruling party, go right ahead, but perhaps start that in a new thread.

It's amazing this country was once a modern and almost "normal" country.....

Now it's...

Like every other African nation.

South Africa. Like you are the rulers of the realm. Maybe in ego. Not in actuality. Your 'immigrants' are knocking on the door. What utter nonsense and bravado. End of comments. Get your hands off my bloody desert. Pink Floyd.

[edit on 5/20/2008 by jpm1602]

[edit on 5/20/2008 by jpm1602]

Let's keep to the topic (and to the facts) please guys...

reply to post by Rockpuck


Was that meant to be sarcastic? I'm not sure, but in case it wasn't... what do you mean by 'used to be normal'?! You call apartheid normal? And now it's just like any other African nation? South Africa's GDP is greater than double that of the second largest African economy, it also sports one of the most widely acclaimed constitutions in the world.

But I assume you must have been sarcastic...

Back on topic:

I'm trying to dig up the article where I read this, but it was an account by a Zimbabwean in the Joburg CBD giving his perceptions of the reasons for the violence, and he made some interesting points.

His basic premis was that, as a result of Jacob Zuma's recent political success, many Zulu people feel as though 'own' the country now and feel they can do as they please, discriminating against whom they want. I'm not so sure I agree with this analysis, but it is an interesting take, especially since this particular witness claimed that these violent mobs have also harassed people of other ethnicities, demanding they return to Limpopo and the Free State etc. This isvery disconcerting, although I have no sources to back up the ethnic constituent of the mobs nor whether they have targetted non-Zulu's.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by The_Modulus


No.. I was not being sarcastic.

Take it however you want, I honestly am not concerned with your feelings at the moment.

I agree with Modulus in that South Africa still is one of the more prosperous countries on the continent. HOWEVER, if we keep up our ignorant attitude, constantly saying that nothing is a "Problem", and waiting until it's almost too late, then we WILL end up as just another african country.

The Government's ignorance towards the obvious will be the downfall of this country, IMO.

H

Originally posted by Gemwolf

I for one have this "smug satisfaction". Not about the violence against people. But because this backs what I've been saying for years - especially the past couple of months. Right-wingers; those who believe in Uhuru and other paranoids believe that South African "black people" are out to get the "white people". I've been trying to convince them that there is very little "black against white" crime in South Africa. The majority crimes are "criminals against the rest" crime. And this current situation backs me. Black against black.


[edit on 20-5-2008 by Gemwolf]

what stats have you for this, could you give me stats for black on white rapes as opposed to white on black rapes- at least this is a crime which cannot be blamed on economics?

Originally posted by The_Modulus
Back on topic:

His basic premis was that, as a result of Jacob Zuma's recent political success, many Zulu people feel as though 'own' the country now and feel they can do as they please, discriminating against whom they want. I'm not so sure I agree with this analysis, but it is an interesting take, especially since this particular witness claimed that these violent mobs have also harassed people of other ethnicities, demanding they return to Limpopo and the Free State etc. This isvery disconcerting, although I have no sources to back up the ethnic constituent of the mobs nor whether they have targetted non-Zulu's.

Any thoughts?

On a much, much smaller scale we have people carrying similar mind sets in the housing estates of the U.K. Usually teenagers who dislike others from neighbouring areas entering "their" street/estate. I think there's a bit of tribalism in all social groups and it surfaces readily when hardships abound. It isn't without violence here but more usually concerns intimidation, chasing and vandalism. There's quite a bit of racketeering too (some gangs demand protection money from shop keepers, some expect people in "their catchment area" to "toe their line" and tip them off when the police are involved.

As I said, it is much, much less than in S.A.

The reason I mention it is to firstly show support for the above quoted premise in that when people occupy an area or feel they have the "ear" of the ruling power, they tend to think they have more rights than the rest as well as they usually assume a "pseudo-policing" role of "their" area; and, secondly, to demonstrate that tribalism is not an African, Middle Eastern, Pakistani etc.. problem; tribalism is a human trait that, in Europe, America and some other places, we learn to deny. Tribalism isn't a symptom of the race, it's a symptom of the society (local or wide).

In regard to the above poster whom seems to think that Africa has always been (and is still) a backward continent full of "natives", Zimbabwe had a civilization that built stone walls and stone cities during the 11th to 15th centuries (before we Europeans had chance to "civilize" them); Western Africa had powerful, flourishing kingdoms with which Europeans traded upuntill "New World Fever" drove attention away (see this article about Dahomey (1600's to 1800's).

A lot of African history was destroyed before, during and after the Moors and Europeans colonized it.

Back on topic, I see that 300 people have been arrested. I hope the violence is contained and doesn't restart.

Edit: sorry for the edits, I'm not sure what's wrong with me today.

[edit on 20/5/08 by Rapacity]

[edit on 20/5/08 by Rapacity]

Hi there chaps

There have been a few developments in this current saga that everyone should take into account.

Currently the death toll stands at 22, although it is not certain if all are foreigners.

The whole situation started with a few locals gathering (about 200) to discuss various poverty-related issues in their area, but they turned to blaming foreigners and from there it spiraled out of control. The violence rapidly moved from one informal settlement to the next (all around Johannesburg), even to the inner city.

The police seem to have their hands full…

Now, I thought I would post a lot of links to various news sources, especially for people who are not familiar with the situation is SA. Although there is one place I know of that has all the news and links to this drama that you could ever wish for.

Before I post the link I think it is necessary to warn readers that this site may not be to everyone’s liking (politically). To make it very clear – please do not use the site to derail this thread – the news articles are accompanied by some colorful comments, if you do not wish to read them simply click on the title of the post and you will be directed to the original msm articles.

If your sole purpose is to seek information you will get plenty!

Here goes…. *cringe*

[SNIP]

Hope I don’t get banned


Mod Edit: Removed link because some of the content is against ATS' T&C.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by Gemwolf]

It's crazy down here. Yesterday morning my friend walks into college and greets with me with a newspaper headline saying that people laugh as a foreigner burns. As far as I know it's just up north in Joburg but I bet it'll reach us in Cape Town soon enough since there are Congolese and Nigerians down here.

I can feel chaos coming.

reply to post by Dapperman


Dapperman, thank you for that link. It's quite interesting.

I'll have another read of it at a later point.

Originally posted by blueorder
what stats have you for this, could you give me stats for black on white rapes as opposed to white on black rapes- at least this is a crime which cannot be blamed on economics?

I can give you all kinds of numbers, but as we both know these numbers are useless, because
a) most statistics comes from the government, and is everything but accurate.
b) more than 85% (estimated) rapes goes unreported.

So the numbers doesn't prove anything either way round. But if you really wish to go down "this road", consider this:

(About rape statistics in the USA: )

About 81% of rape victims are white; 18% are black; 1% are of other races. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice
Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

Source

Are you going to argue that there is a "black against white situation" in the USA as well? Figures like these don’t mean squad, and can't possibly be used for the argument you wish to use them for.


[edit on 21-5-2008 by Gemwolf]

Well said Rapacity

Tribalism is indeed a human trait. I think people the world over seek to be part of some identity encleve, rather than being an identity all alone. We're social beings and these incidents, as well as those you mention in the Uk, are symptomatic of the need to associate oneself with a group similar to oneself.

In terms of whether this will spread to Cape Town... I doubt it. Cape Town is a far more left-leaning and integrated community than in JHB. I think because Cape Town feels like it exists on a somewhat smaller scale, it feels as though there is greater integration. People are also far less reactionary down here... I think it has to do with the positive feng-shui of the mountain of something

The xenophobic attacks have now spread to Durban, and the Metrorail is on high alert.

SABC News
SABC News


Cape Town local Government has started emergency planning, as they expect more of the same…

SABC News

So far law enforcement agencies have banded together to try and curb the violence, but people have called for the SANDF to be brought in.

SABC News

The thing that gets me is the brutality of these attacks, they don’t jus murder, they torture! Here is a person that was doused in fuel, wrapped in blankets and set alight… he was burnt so badly that he could not be identified and died a day later in hospital. While police tried to help this poor chap the onlookers where apparently laughing??