50 acres enough?

Oh and there are Bobcats, and Cougars. Cougars in the South also go by the name of mountain Lion and Puma. We have two who travel through our land twice a year. They have a range of over 200 miles that they travel as their territory. Many of my neighbors large dogs have been consumed by these wild cats. A cow in a near by pasture was brought down by one not long ago. The Sheriff determined it was a cougar by the huge claw marks on the throat area.
So get to know the wild life in your desired area adn for goodness sakes be careful!
My other neighbor had a standoff with a Coyote a week ago as she had to get out and open her gate. It just stood there in the drive way and stared her down and held it's ground...may have been rabid. She told me when they hunt in a pack one will hide and flank you as game and make a sort of bird like noise.

reply to post by givemeliberty or beer


Do it, a include me, im from south africa, and with whats going on here and what i see in the rest of the world, i agree, big stuff is going down..

Study potential flood plains and build your accommodation on the highest ground near to a fresh water supply - but not at the peak of a hill. Better to have the roof level just below the highest ground - preferably on the far side from the nearest large city.

Study local weather patterns, historical storm events, prevailing winds etc

Avoid building a traditional timber structure for your main accommodation. Consider an aerodynamic steel frame with large sheets of panel cladding. These can be covered with any other material to make the building attractive.

Add a cellar to your house with a strong reinforced concrete floor above if possible. This would be useful for both storage and personal storm protection.

There are designs available for homes that are partially built into a hillside. You could have what is known as a 'green roof' ie covered with earth and grass, or clad it with solar panels.

Clear any coniferous trees from around the immediate vacinity of your buildings. They have relatively small root structure and fall more easily.

If you decide to excavate a separate bunker, protect the roof with either 2 feet of earth, 10mm of steel plate or 6 inches of reinforced concrete.

Solar panels though admirable in concept will not provide you with a great deal of directly useable power. However, they can be used to trickle charge a bank of lead-acid batteries or supplement other power sources.

You might like to consider a hydrogen cell generator. Information is available at the following website: hydrogen.ecn.purdue.edu...

[edit on 20/5/08 by Myrdyn]

Originally posted by whaaa
Investing in land is always a good idea regardless of the occurrence of sitx.

Inviting outsiders in; I don't think is a good idea unless you enjoy bickering, squabbling over women, lazy sob's, power trips, ego's, etc.
and that's just with family members.

[edit on 18-5-2008 by whaaa]

As more and more s--t hits the fan; more and more people will forsake all that (worldly) baggage. Although you still will have to carry a big stick,
(Shepperd's crook) to keep people in line. The benefits of new blood will
out-way the negatives.
P.S. Have long hike, materials and routes available. 50 acres is nothing, when and if the government decides you are a threat.

The more land, the better. In your "scenario" (I'm making assumptions) 50 acres is great. While Order persists the law will give you a wide buffer zone and that's great. Now, learn your 50 acres. Know it. Tend it and groom it. As for agriculture, focus on crops that can be store long-term. That is, crops that can be inexpensively preserved. Learn to can, if you don't know how. All surplus food is then real wealth.
No, you cannot expect to defend all 50 acres, but you can defend an inner fortification. Make arrangements for your place to be the fallback-rendezvous point for a bunch of good folk. You'll need them. If my assumptions about your hypothetical scenario are correct, it may be something like the strategic and tactical situations people contended with in Medieval Europe. Look at the types of defensive structures used then. Note the approximate resident capacity and corresponding storage space. These communities operated seasonally. There are tons of detailed drawings of this stuff. Renaissance and Colonial sources abound. Place your "fort/castle" in a defensive geographic locale. Hills and vantage points are good, obviously. You know about water.
Animals. Well, if you must attempt animal husbandry then I would suggest chickens. Free range if possible. If that's not enough, goats too.
Pigs and Cows are too expensive calorically and too sensitive.
We don't need to discuss armaments in detail except to say that arms are legal in this country. Only purchase legal firearms through legitimate means. If you know how to use them, they will do you well. I'm saying, in your defensive scenario, a bunch of wicked small arms will do you no good against armor anyway.
Which brings up my next point. Remember you are the defender (or should be). Use that to your advantage. Set goals as a defender. There's no use fighting friemds and neighbors. Choose your fights carefully.. Be good to your neighbors and open about your activities. Your concerns are legitimate and it still isn't a crime in this country to prepare for the worst.
But as the defender. When you have a defensive mission statement you will be focused. But be realistic. Your basic main goal in the "scenario"should be life and autonomy. An example of forgetting this can be seen in many instances of conflict in the Middle East. Many of these people know that they can't ultimately win, so they've adjusted their offensive goals to be "kill people, cause confusion, make religious gestures, cause fear, etc." This is stupid and counter productive. Don't be the branch Davidians(sp?) or the suicide bombers or The unibombers. That # is weak.
But also note that even though there is a lack of organization among the enemy in Iraq, achieving decisive victory is tough for the Allies. That's becasue they're basically sticking their necks out and this is what happens. Now, we will 'win' eventually, but it will be a cultural victory and this falls outside your immediate concerns. Take home lesson: take advantge of your status as Defender. Recall the original Continental regulars and militas.
Can say much more. Whatever you pay for the land (or market value), expect to invest AT LEAST that much again in setting up your mini-infrastructure. REmember, the more the merrier.
50 acres can produce alot of goods and materials in 5-10 years if harvested wisely and used/stored efficiently.

reply to post by Archideva


You mention the "lions", let us not forget the "tigers and bears".

"Lions, tigers and bears oh my!" LOL

50 acres is a good piece, but I wouldn't surpass 20 people. More than that and you're going to have a hard time feeding all the mouths. Less than that, you'll have a tougher time cultivating and protecting the land.

My parents own 24 acres here in KY and it's a decent amount of land, but we're only 4 people. We don't use all the land for cultivation. We only have a small garden.

In a situation X scenario, you'll want to have adequate weapons for hunting and defending your property. You'll REALLY want to know the deer trails and keep them open. You don't want deer to start keeping clear of your property because of human infestation. I'd say you'll have to have a delicate balance of where you hunt and where you live day to day, but that shouldn't be too difficult with 50 acres.

I would build an obvious solar powered above ground shelter (as a decoy for outsiders). I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with being "on the grid" and having power lines run to you for comfortable living until the total infrastructure collapses. Believe me, the people you'll have to worry about won't be the government, it'll be your neighbors. That's why I'd also have a hidden underground shelter as well, heated by geothermal heat. Well water is essential ... and damned better than any city water you'll get anywhere.

If money really isn't a problem, I'd recommend looking into a hydroelectric generator that could operate from underground springs. This isn't for Joe Schmoe .. only for the ultra-wealthy, but it'd provide ample amount of electricity for long period of time.

Stockpile seeds. You'll need to constantly rotate your canned goods out until Event X occurs.

i suggest learning to grow hydroponic foods.
lentils is a good above ground crop; two birds, one stone.
oats and oatmeal, another nearly complete food.
HOWEVER,
the most important situation X preparation you can make is
related to medical care, not acreage-----

you need a REALLY good, well thought out, redundantly stocked
medical supply and the knowledge on how to use it properly.
not just bandages and peroxide, but all the other
essentials, like snake bit kits, benadryl for allergic reactions,
something for anaphylactic shock, the equipment to perform c-section
if necessary, antibiotics and immune system stimulants (echinacea, for example), medicines to sustain the lives of people with medical conditions such as diabetes (alpha lipoic acid and methyl B-12), high blood pressure (hawthorne berry), yeast infections (acidophilus), etc.

reply to post by undo

I agree for the most part, but herbal remedies, knownledge of the indigenous flora and an understanding of first aid, and A&P is reliable and inexhaustible.

In my opinion, if you are serious about this, you should treat every visit to the land as if the bad stuff has already happened. Base everything on the assumption there is no electricity and probably will not be. After all, what good is it to have a working PC with no internet. I am interested in finding a plan for the "what if" scenario. I don't actually believe that there will be a life ending situation in Dec. of 2012, but If I didn't at least think about it, then I am delusional to say the least. I am planning to have the whole family meet in the mountains for two weeks in Dec of 2012. If nothing happens, we will have a good time and family togeatherness. If something does happen, then we will be togeather when it happens. Either way, we will be happy. As for the "what", I think if magnetic north shifts far enough, then the polar ice caps will melt and flood a lot of area and other areas will form Ice. That is my reasoning for Mountains. (higher ground) Good luck.

reply to post by undo


on the subject of herbs and natural cures look in the healht food stores i picked up a copy of the book titled -THE NATIVE NORTH AMERICAN GUIDE TO HERBS AND NATURAL CURES IT EXPLAINS WHAT THEY USE AND HOW TO PREPARE AND USE THEM I GOT THIS BOOK 20 TO 30 YEARS AGO .

About 2-3 acres of the land is completly cleared for a garden, though more of this land could easily be cleared if need be. There is a 3 acre spring fed pond at the rear of the property, rye grass planted on a small levy, deer tracks everywhere. Turkeys, wild hogs, rabbits, squirlles etc. abound on this property. This was obviosly an old homestead. We counted 4 springs . There is even a small waterfall coming from the pond. Nearest neighbors are elderly, half mile away, small town 8 miles away. We are going to buy it for about 55k, too good to pass up. Thanks for all the great advice everyone!

i think my family in a bunch of german sheperds could handle it

I would go for the 50 acres, allot of people ask how you will defend it, landscape right and over a couple of years (if we have that long) no one will locate it...

I recommend perimiter planting of trees as needed, thorny bushes, roses are great but noticeable, Jatropha should grow in your climate, unpassable, yet also a top bio diesel plant (keep it distant from food crops)

But you get the idea, nature is your best defense 10-20 feet of bush and trees arounf the border of your land, then sporadic planting inbetween trees, then wherne none of the above is applicable some digging... sounds like great land for quick sand pits in and out of the perimiter bushes...

people might flock to the woods but they take the path of least resistance most will be clueless, no one is going to chop through 2o feet of bush with a machette lol, in dense tree growth and occasional, pitfalls...

that would leave you a center of a good 30 acres completely obscured

I wouldn't even leave a road exit... do it by small tunnel so you have a long defendable entrance to your land... a corridor that you can shut as oppossed to an open road...

Inside the 30 center acres, your next line of defense should be dogs, you will need them for hunting defense and herding of small livestock, you want a good sized pack, animals inclined to take on bigger animals like a bear... I reccomend a mixture of Akitas, Huskies and German Sheperds...

Coyote packs will be rampant... they can climb trees too, your perimiter will be useless, far more than Bears or other large cretures, Coyotes and wolves will be the deadly predator... and wild dogs too! You need a good sized pack yourself... a good 20 or more, the other canines will respect the territory of that large of a pack and it ensures that you will here barking across an area of 20-30 acres if someone tries to cross...

your wondering how to feed those dogs?
Rabbit, it really is delicous and does taste just like chicken... but you won't wish to go crazy with chickens... too much noise especially from the roosters... it will give your location away constantly, you will need to keep some for eggs, but in smaller numbers inside a pen which you should sound proof as best you can, fortunately egg cartons lol, make great sound proofing...

Rabbits breed impossibly fast eat little (you have plenty of room for feed) and they are Silent

A few horses, not overboard, smell will give you away... but you will want the height if intruders threaten... and speed...

Pigs... I am not a fan of pork but cows will, be a pain in the ass, some sheep for a treat, goats for milk... small numbers and pigs.

Why the pigs? they will eat a human body if it comes to that and leave little if any remains... Just don't eat the pigs, it could cause prion disease if it has eaten human flesh... Rather... use the pigs for bait for larger predators to get rid of them...

If you want to get really ambitious, get into aquatics, that land could support a couple of large swimming pool sized tanks that could raise talipia or maybe a small cold water fish for heart health and line the tanks with mussels or let shrimp breed in one... not hard really, just a big fish tank... heck koi are easy and beautiful, just carp... tasty, no chemicals needed or anything

planting, do corn, but again the perimiter you use jatropha to make it impassable, corn converts to ethanol in amouts that will maybe let you power a generator in winter but the jatropha will assure you power and you can save that space for crops you eat... takes allot of corn for ethanol, seriously do your whole perimiter in Jatropha, no one will ever recognize it's value, it's not food for anything... maybe the very outer bushes do a different bush so they don't see the seeds, but hardly anyone would know what it is...

you definitely want to do some digging, sounds like a tough job in a wet area... you'll need to do some research into drainage to not flood if a hurricane blows in, but you will want to keep as much as possible underground, all your supplies, rooms for kids, any attack will come in the night most likely, let them shoot up your above ground shelters that are for deco, do everything you can down as deep as you can go, off the sights of planes etc, etc...

If you have allot of trees and a small number of people, a mesh canopy over allot of your crop area during off season and for allot of in season might be wise, avoid being seen by air... camo everything you do, plant in clusters and harvest less, you have tons of space for... 10-20 people on 30 acres.

Do Not plant in easy to recognize square or rectangular patterns, plant i odd organic patterns and you won't be seen by air, it will be harder to harvest and tend to, but you want to avoid anything that would look like a farm from air or hill sights stagger crops together and in wierdshapes that weave in and out from different types of plants for a more natural look... a pumpkin patch here, 10-15 feet of corn in an arc around a tree, tomatoes around them... you get the idea...

Fires should be kept to pits covered and lit only at night when you won't see smoke... for cooking slow cook in natural heat cookers as much as you can. No fire...

materials to make candles would be nice... solar is aluxury and easy to spot, you will be able to produce ethanol and that can run a generator when you need one... again, this should be kept inclosed in a sound proofed room of some sort, a small generator can carry for miles...

But again more than all of this plant the heck out of your perimiter then fig then plant somemore then channel water... use the landscape so no one passes and 30 acres of your 50 will be very good...