Is John McCain a Double Dipper? A Triple Dipper?

I have a serious problem with the Vietnam War and the number of or rather the lack of or low number of Prisoners of War taken on either side and the treatment of prisoners. As for the treatment of prisoners of war, I have always been under the impression a capturing force is obligated to feed prisoners in the same it feeds its most numerous rank of soldiers. A Japanese soldier in the field was given 1 kilo of rice, 2.2 pounds, a half dozen dried fish and a half liter of cooking oil. That was to last him a week. The lowest rank Japanese soldiers fixed their own food.

American prisoners thought they were being starved to death when furnished the same ration. I suppose the Japanese could have contracted with Halliburton’s predecessor to bring in MREs - meals ready to eat - and could have fed our guys like they were fed back home. Steak. Meatloaf. Beef stew. But war is hell, someone said. I’m sorry our guys did not get fried chicken every Sunday but I really can’t blame the Japanese, hey we were there and not here.

We had 550,000 soldiers in Vietnam in 1968. There were probably 75,000-100,000 Viet Cong - guerillas in South Vietnam. The NVA - North Vietnam Army - probably numbed 200,000-300,000 men and women. The South Vietnam Army probably numbered about 150,000 men at its peak. Yet, there were very few prisoners. On either side. I never thought about it when the war was on-going, but now, it seems there must have been some gruesome policy in effect on both sides - TAKE NO PRISONERS. Anyone got any ideas about that?

1973. Tran Van Quang [North Vietnamese negotiator] explained the American POW issue in detail. He said the total number of American POWs captured in combat actions and who were in the DRV consists of 1205, of which 671 were taken prisoner in North Vietnam, 426 in South Vietnam, 43 in Laos and 65 in Cambodia.

There are 767 aviators among the prisoners. All of the American POWs were held in 11 prisons and were assigned according to military rank (there are 16 colonels, 104 lieutenant colonels, 235 majors and the remaining prisoners are of lower rank). www.aiipowmia.com...

A Book About Prisoners of War. “Broken Soldiers” by Raymond B. Lech, University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago IL, 2000; 330 pp.

Korean War. Of the 7,190 Americans who were captured (mostly in the first nine months of the war), approximately 3000 died in captivity, a mortality of 43%, largely of starvation over a six month period (Nov 1950 - April 1951). This compares with WW II rates: 4% of US prisoners in Germany (considered a normal rate, reflecting the Geneva convention), 34% in Japan (rightly condemned as barbarous), 45% of German POWs held by the Soviets, and 60% of Soviet POWs held by the Germans. Of 766 US POWs officially held by North Vietnam (1965 - 1973), 106 deaths were reported (14%)
www.cyberussr.com...

The United States Military Code of Conduct, Articles III through V, are guidelines for United States service members who have been taken prisoner. When a person is taken prisoner, the Code of Conduct reminds the service member that the chain of command is still in effect (the highest ranking service member, regardless of armed service branch, is in command), and that the service member cannot receive special favors or parole from their captors, lest this undermine the service member's chain of command.

History. During the American Revolutionary War, at least 16 hulks - a ship no longer seaworthy - including the infamous HMS Jersey, were placed by British authorities in the waters of Wallabout Bay off the shores of Brooklyn, New York as a place of incarceration for many thousands of American soldiers and sailors during about 1776–83.

Over 10,000 of these prisoners died from intentional neglect. Their corpses were often tossed overboard . . See Prison Ship Martyrs' Monument at Fort Greene Park, once the scene of a portion of the Battle of Long Island.en.wikipedia.org...

John McCain. As a naval aviator, McCain flew attack aircraft from carriers. In 1967, John McCain was flying an A-4E Skyhawk off the USS Forrestal [actually it was the USS Oriskany] when he was shot down n his twenty-third bombing mission over North Vietnam. He was badly injured breaking both legs and one arm. After the war, his last duty station was Navy liaison to the U.S. Senate. He retired from the Navy in 1981 as a decorated captain. In 1982 he was elected to the House from Arizona’s First District. Reelected in 1984, he then ran for the Senate in 1986 and was reelected in 1992, 1998 and 2004, to a term that expires in 2010.

John McCain. To my best knowledge John McCain has never held a “job” in the private world. His father was an admiral and so he was always in a premo position. Grown men would address him as “sir” despite his tender years. McCain has never paid one dime for his health care insurance. He like Eisenhower and so many others, were always under socialized - totally free - medical care furnished by the government but they never wanted to share that blissful state of secure feeling with us ordinary mortals. But our time will come.

Is Big John a Double dipper? Nope! A Triple dipper? Nope. Gosh, are you suggesting McCain is that rare bird, a QUADRUPLE dipper? Yup!
1) Retired from the Navy.
2) Disability rated for injuries sustained in the Vietnam War.
3) Social security.
4) US Senate retirement. (Due later). And IF he is elected president, he will be QUINTUPLE dipper!
5) Presidential retirement. Sweet Jesus! Can we afford him?

US Military Retirement payments. Navy Captain (O6) with over 20 years, retirement pay is $5,115 per month.

www.defenselink.mil...

I do not know what percentage of disability McCain has been awarded. I DO WANT TO KNOW what percent he has because if he is 100% I smell STINK. With father and grandfather as admirals I suspect he got ALL HE DESERVED if not MORE from the VA. Military veterans disability award monthly payments. 10%, $117. 50%, $728. 100%, $2,527 a month. VA disability payments are tax exempt and are not to be counted in income.
www.military.com...

Social Security. It is very difficult to find what the maximum benefit payable in 2008 is. I don’t know why that should be so, but based on the website below I believe the currtent maximum is $1,800. Per month.
www.socialsecurity.gov...

Members of Congress are not eligible for a pension until they reach the age of 50, but only if they've completed 20 years of service. Members are eligible at any age after completing 25 years of service or after they reach the age of 62. Please also note that Member's of Congress have to serve at least 5 years to even receive a pension. According to the Congressional Research Service, 413 retired Members of Congress were receiving federal pensions based fully or in part on their congressional service as of Oct. 1, 2006. Of this number, 290 had retired under CSRS and were receiving an average annual pension of $60,972.
usgovinfo.about.com...

Presidential pension. It was $260,000 a year, but it may be more now. Plus the government pays for him to have an office and to have staff to answer mail and etc.

Republican 527s. Here they come again "Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain" - May 2008. Beginning in early March 2008, a website titled "Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain" appeared on the WWW. The site contains a collection of attacks on John McCain. As McCain moved to cement the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination, the site added more and more attacks on McCain. Briefly stated, the site is bull#. The website, "Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain" is the creation of Ted Sampley from Kinston, NC.

Sampley is assisted by another individual, Jerry Kiley, and the bills are being paid by rightwingnut and former member of Congress, John LeBoutillier. This is a long and twisted tale. To fully understand why Sampley is attacking McCain, you need to start by reading this article after which you need to read the articles linked to this one. www.miafacts.org...

NOTE: I personally do not like the above website but not for its defense of John McCain. I don’t like it because it is a MIA Forever Website that ACCUSES the US Govt of “knowingly” leaving behind some of our MIA-POWS in Vietnam. I call those falsifiers ‘Mark Lane Juniors’ because they, like him, see there is money to be made in conspiracy theories. Mark Lane’s “Rush to Judgment” was the FIRST in the endless JFK “two shooters” theme. That is not true and none of our men were left behind in Vietnam.

But see also the first hand account by Senator McCain:
www.usnews.com...

Hanoi Hilton. The Hoa Lo Prison (commonly translated as "fiery furnace" actually means "stove." The name originated from the street name "pho Lò" due to the concentration of stores selling wood stoves and coal-fired stoves along the street from pre-colonial times). It was a prison used by the French colonists in Vietnam for political prisoners. It was later used by North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. It was known to American prisoners as the “Hanoi Hilton.” en.wikipedia.org...

For US Casualties on ALL wars, see en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

For SMALL government equals GOOD government, I recommend you read James Madison’s Federalist No. 10 paper found at usgovinfo.about.com...

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]

That web site, 'Vietnam vets against McCain' is a tit for tat site against him becaue of 'Swift Boat Vets" against John Kerry. I've heard reported but never confirmed some in Hanoi Hilton had issues with McCain but I haven't seen any reports lately. Sure is going to be an interesting election. More mud than a pig farm!!!!

It does not matter to me if a returned POW can double-dip/triple or quadruple dip the system...

they are in a special (& exempt class - to my reckoning mind) situation...

many 20 year lifers in the military have opted for government-service 2nd careers.... and even fewer have chosen a political 2nd career,
more power to the AZ Senator (i voted for him when i resided there)
~not because he was a former POW~... but because his views were more in line with mine.

i'm not sure , but the Senator- as old as he is - is only 'Eligeable' for SocialSecurity Retirement...but he cannot collect it Yet because he's a full time & employed member of the Senate.
As far as his military retirement,,,, he put in his time & paid his dues to earn that stipend.
As far a his legislative benefits package,,, he's earned that too!
John McCain ain't bleeding the system "un-rightously",
Senator McCain is being an active citizen & accomplishing what 2 maybe 3 individuals might accomplish in their lifetimes.



Anthony Shine is our local MIA, I believe his daughter Coleen Shine is still active & a driving force in the national POW/MIA organization.
~even IF there's multiple 'dipping' by these few & far between survivors...
a lot of slack should be allowed (imho)..


sour grapes don't make for good wine

reply to post by ZindoDoone

That web site, 'Vietnam vets against McCain' is a tit for tat site against him becaue of 'Swift Boat Vets" against John Kerry. I've heard reported but never confirmed some in Hanoi Hilton had issues with McCain but I haven't seen any reports lately. Sure is going to be an interesting election. More mud than a pig farm!!!

Hmm? That's odd. The website, "Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain" is the creation of Ted Sampley from Kinston, NC. Sampley is assisted by another individual, Jerry Kiley, and the bills are being paid by rightwingnut and former member of Congress, John LeBoutillier.

I have never been exposed to the possibility of being a prisoner of war or a prisoner of any kind. Well, that’s not quite true, as I have done 2 nights in jail - not at the same time - after a late night driving offense arrest and waiting for the court to convene the next morning. In one instance I was tortured!

Well, I was given a blanket that was too short to cover my feet and shoulders at the same time. That’s my habit. To cover my shoulders and feet. I’d pull the blanket UP to cover my shoulders and my feet would freeze. I’m not used to sleeping in the natal position. Then I’d rise up, pull the blanket down over my feet and whamo! my shoulders were exposed! A lousy night on a stainless steel cot! With NO pillow. Torture!

In those brief episodes I can tell you it is a disastrous feeling to be absolutely powerless. You can’t do anything without another person’s permission which may be slow in coming or come not at all. Everything in your life is done at another’s pleasure. It must be very hard to accept especially when as John McCain - and the others - you have no idea how long the war will last.

I do not know if I’d agree being shackled was torture when I learned it was done for rules violations. It was not a 4 star hotel and the guards were not concierges. I am fairly impressed that 86% of our captured airmen in the Hanoi Hilton survived. All of the former prisoners I have seen on tv appear to have their own teeth - a sign of an adequate if not palatable diet - and all 4 limbs. They show no obvious signs of psychological damage. And none of them looked like our liberated prisoners from Bataan in the Philippines. Or those German POWs. Not our guys who were treated well, but I mean Poles, Russians, Slovaks, Jews and etc.

Being a prisoner is no fun anywhere, anytime.

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]

1. He served in the military
2. He has disabilities to this day for serving in the military
3. He's over 65
4. He's serving in the senate
5. He may serve as president

These are all legitimate. Good for him.

reply to post by St Udio

I'm not sure, but the Senator - as old as he is - is only 'Eligible' for Social Security Retirement ... but he cannot collect it Yet because he's a full time & employed member of the Senate. As far as his military retirement, he put in his time & paid his dues to earn that stipend. As far as his legislative benefits package, he's earned that too!

For him, retirement begins at 65. Anyone can defer the start of the monthly benefit up to 5 years. By so doing, the amount payable is increased 5% per year of deferral up to 25%. In his case, that would be a wise move.

Benefits payable between age 65 and 70 are reduced $1 for each $2 earned. At age 70 that rule no longer applies. All recipients of social security who have other income above a certain level - say $20,000 - must pay a scaled up tax on the 50% of their social security benefits they did not contribute, i.e., the employer's matching contribution on which no tax has been paid. The full tax on that half does not apply until about $50,000 income.

I am only interested in learning the percent of disability his VA award is for. I would be sorely disappointed in McCain if it is 100%. He is obviously NOT totally disabled. The % of VA disability also has a tax advantage in that his military retirement pay equal to that % is tax exempt. So what's his %?

Aside: It has been recommended that triple amputee Max Cleland be appointed the next Secretary of Veterans Affairs regardless which Democrat gains the presidency. Cleland ran for and was elected to the United States Senate from Georgia in 1996. The Democratic nomination became available because of the retirement of long serving Senator Sam Nunn.

In 2002, Cleland was defeated in his bid for a second Senate term by Republican Representative Saxby Chambliss. Voters were allegedly influenced by Chambliss ads that featured Cleland's likeness on the same screen as Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, ads that Cleland's supporters claim questioned his commitment to homeland security.

The ads were removed after strong bi-partisan protest from prominent politicians including Republicans like John McCain and Chuck Hagel. Republicans feel best when working in mud.

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by mistressofspices

These are all legitimate. Good for him.

You'll have to admit he is the ULTIMATE Washington insider! McCain has never breathed a breath of air, slept on a warm bed, wore his clean clothes nor eaten a spoon of food that Uncle Sam did not pay for!

Wow! Talk about "from the cradle to the grave" entitlement! Say Hello, Big John!

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]

John McCain did not fly his last mission from the Forrestal. The Forrestal was severely damaged by a series of explosions and fires due to exploding bombs on its flight deck.

In July 1967, Forrestal departed Norfolk for duty in waters off Vietnam. In the Gulf of Tonkin on 29 July, Forrestal had been launching aircraft from her flight deck. For four days, the planes of Attack Carrier Air Wing 17 flew about 150 missions against targets in North Vietnam from the ship. On July 29, 1967, during preparation for another strike, a Zuni rocket misfired, knocking off an external tank on another aircraft. Fuel from the leaking tank caught fire creating a massive conflagration that burned for hours, killing 134, injuring 161, destroying 21 aircraft and costing the Navy $72 million.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...

John McCain's capture and imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his twenty-third bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.[34][35] McCain fractured both arms and a leg, and then nearly drowned when he parachuted into Trúc Bạch Lake in Hanoi.[34] After he regained consciousness, a mob attacked him, crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt, and bayoneted him;[34] he was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".[35]

en.wikipedia.org...

Furthermore, John McCain served as any other naval aviator would have and received the same kind of honors and such that would accrue to any naval officer.

The North Vietnamese wanted to send him home when his father was assigned to the Vietnam theater, but McCain refused.

In mid-1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and McCain was offered early release.[43] The North Vietnamese wanted a worldwide propaganda coup by appearing merciful,[44] and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[43] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[34]

en.wikipedia.org...

Whatever benefits McCain enjoys, he has earned.

I don't know why you have to include so much extraneous data to support such a ridiculous claim, but I guess the old saying has some validity:

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull....

reply to post by GradyPhilpott

I don't know why you have to include so much extraneous data to support such a ridiculous claim, but I guess the old saying has some validity: If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them . .

On 26 October 1967, John McCain flew off of the USS Oriskany on his 23rd bombing mission of the Vietnam War. He was shot down that day and was a POW until January 1973. en.wikipedia.org...

How American war hero John McCain betrayed the Vietnamese peasant who saved his life . .
www.dailymail.co.uk...


[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]

Don,

Did you NOT serve?

Is this just jealousy you are portraying here?

If not jealousy, what is it your trying to prove?

I agree with all of your facts, they seem to be fairly accurate, I just can't see how anyone could begrudge JM anything that he earned. I can't see begrudging anyone anything they earn, much less JM....

Now your comment that he has not held a job before, seems to be a point worth investigating, perhaps we could explore that....

The rest sounds like sour grapes..

Semper

This is just a cheap attempt to smear McCain.

It's so transparent as to be comical.

Keep it up, don.

If some "facts" don't pan out, there's plenty smear sites out there with half-truths and outright lies to choose from.

This story is something of a smear, too.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

McCain met with the man and gave him a token of his appreciation.

There's a picture of him with the man in the article.

The story also states that "McCain saviors" is a cottage industry in Vietnam.

Frankly, I doubt McCain has a clear memory of the details of that ordeal or just who played what part in all the action.

I am glad though that there is one North Vietnamese who appreciates at least one American serviceman.

It should also be remembered the role McCain played in normalizing relations with Vietnam, which is a pretty magnanimous act given what he went through and how many vets feel about Vietnam and the Vietnamese.


[edit on 2008/5/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by ZindoDoone

 

That web site, 'Vietnam vets against McCain' is a tit for tat site against him becaue of 'Swift Boat Vets" against John Kerry. I've heard reported but never confirmed some in Hanoi Hilton had issues with McCain but I haven't seen any reports lately. Sure is going to be an interesting election. More mud than a pig farm!!!

Hmm? That's odd. The website, "Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain" is the creation of Ted Sampley from Kinston, NC. Sampley is assisted by another individual, Jerry Kiley, and the bills are being paid by rightwingnut and former member of Congress, John LeBoutillier.

Mr. LeBoutillier might be a rightwing nut to you but to me he's a RINO. Also there just happened to be many Democrats in the 'Swift Boat" contingent. I to have spent time in a cell. Getting my head bashed in the good old town of Chicago in 1968 during the Democratic Convention. I've been on the front line and know what it is to meet the facists.
McCain is no Reagan or JFK, but he does deserve more respect from those here and what ever he 'earns' for service retirement he worked for. A whole hell of alot harder than most of us.

Zindo

Originally posted by semperfortis
Don, Did you NOT serve?

Yes. I have an Honorable Discharge from the Army National Guard dated in 1951. I attained E4 in 20 months service.

I have 2 Honorable Discharges from the US Air Force. Again, I attained the rank of E4. I have the Good Conduct Medal from the AF. I am a life member of the VFW and of the DAV. And etc. [I don't like the American Legion.]

Is this just jealousy you are portraying here? If not jealousy, what is it your trying to prove?

It frightens me to think so many Americans equate service in the military with competence to be our president.

There is NO connection between the two. Learning how to 'SNAP TO' is not the same as studying the issues in the depth our leaders should. Before taking office, if possible. Yes, it does not mean a military man could not be a good president, but it by no means guarantees that he will be. Worse is the all too popular notion any potential candidate because of his service deserves a BYE on real qualifications.

I agree with all of your facts, they seem to be fairly accurate, I just can't see how anyone could begrudge JM anything that he earned. I can't see begrudging anyone anything they earn, much less JM ....

Well, I happen to be a one man one pension person when it comes to supping at the Federal trough. For sure, let him choose which but enough is enough! It’s not the money. The issue goes much deeper. Give another person a chance.

There is no doubt in my mind that McCain was in line for a flag. On the fast track! Based on his FAMILY connections, in the US Navy he would have been a sure bet for three stars if only half competent and 4 stars if a real performer. If that is obvious to me 2,000 miles from Arizona then it must have been obvious to him. His last duty post, LIAISON for the US Navy to Congress, was the last exposure before flag appointment which requires Congressional approval. So who persuaded him to QUIT the Navy and get into government? WHY did he do that? Was he the heir designate for 1996, but when Bush41 unexpectedly lost to Clinton, he was then put off for 2000 but got derailed that time by the bored-stiff-in-Austin Texas Cowpoke?

I take it for granted that nothing happens by accident in the Grand Sweepstakes of national politics.

Now your comment that he has not held a job before, seems to be a point worth investigating, perhaps we could explore that .... The rest sounds like sour grapes ..

Well, we were fawning over Mitt Romney just 3 months ago. We were wondering if Michael Bloomberg would throw his hat into the ring.

I have high regard for the military for doing the job it is meant to do. Whether those skills and the experiences rub off into other fields of enterprise I am not so quick to detect. I think everyone will admit that Lt. JG Kennedy did not learn anything in the Navy that made him a better president. He was born with his courage and he was lucky to have survived the shipwreck. Most of us in the military realize that good assignments and sometimes rank are more a product of luck than talent.

Have we all forgotten that it was Eisenhower who ordered the planing of what came to be known as the Bay of Pigs? Have we all forgotten that it was Eisenhower who sent the first 800 MAAG - Military Assistance and Advisory Group - to Vietnam? That JFK was reluctant to add to the men in Vietnam? Jack got sand-bagged TWICE by Ike.

I am disappointed in our top military leaders - the uniformed men - who will violate all they have been taught and what they knew rather than give up their luxurious positions. “Better to follow wrong orders” than to give up a valet, a driver, a 5,000 square feet quarters near a golf course and the opportunity to fly in an uncrowded Grumman when on US business. And when is a 4 star NOT on government business?

I’m the naysayer and it is me who is criticized. Hmm?

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by donwhite

It frightens me to think so many Americans equate service in the military with competence to be our president.

Is that "off the cuff" on your part, as no one has said that yet that I have read.

There is no doubt in my mind that McCain was in line for a flag.

Your service, which you provided so eloquently, goes to your character, so does his and it does not speak well of you to dismiss his while vaunting yours..

So who persuaded him to QUIT the Navy and get into government?

This being a conspiracy site, I expect most to always be looking in the closet, but I expect better from you. Perhaps, just PERHAPS, he felt called to it, was attracted to the job or even more bland, just wanted to serve in that capacity? Remember, there is not ALWAYS an ulterior motive, sometimes people really do do things they just simply want to.

I take it for granted that nothing happens by accident in the Grand Sweepstakes of national politics.

That my friend, enables you to often times, find things that are just not there. Good luck with that.

I’m the naysayer and it is me who is criticized. Hmm?

Nope. You have it all wrong.

I don't like McCain for President. Never have. Problems with him for me include, Immigration, Fiscal, His Age, A fairly Liberal Stance and his support of several bills I opposed.
McCain Feingold
McCain Kennedy
ETC.

Where you went astray is in not criticizing, but slandering. I support your criticizing of any candidate for any reason. Look at his past and tell me what was wrong with that, his associates etc. I'm all for it. But why take something the man did that was heroic and in support of YOUR freedoms, and demonize that? That just does not look good on you.

Whatever he earned in the Military, he deserves. As do you. I have never used any of my benefits from the Marines, but I will if I ever need to.

I made E4, (Corporal) in 16 months by the way...... What took you so long?

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Where you went astray is in not criticizing, but slandering.

There seems to be a lot of that lately and I expect that it will get worse the closer we get to November.

reply to post by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by semperfortis
Where you went astray is in not criticizing, but slandering.

There seems to be a lot of that lately and I expect that it will get worse the closer we get to November.

Slander (oral) and libel (written) is a false statement damaging a persons reputation. Operative word being “false.”

Criticize is to indicate the faults of - - in a disapproving way.

I have been accused of slandering Mr McCain. That requires a FALSE statement. I am unaware of anything I have said vis a vis McCain to be false. Any speculations I have made were just that and were not represented as fact, but were presented as my own speculation.

Yes, I have criticized Mr McCain. IMO he showed his real character in NC, when he ‘objected’ to the local GOP running an ad linking Obama to Rev. Wright. Everybody in politics knows that trick. That’s having the best of both worlds!

Republicans have a long history of mudslinging. Almost uninterrupted. It was no joke when Ike was said to be taking the “HIGH road” while Nixon was taking the “LOW road.” 1952-1956. Nixon adopted his Southern Strategy - arousing red neck Southern whites to vote GOP on the implicit promise Nixon would not enforce court ordered school integration. 1968.

Gerald Ford is excepted.

Reagan rode to victory in CA and again in 1980 repeating as often as possible his false story of the Welfare Queen and her Cadillac. The senior Bush enjoyed the Willie Horton ad. Jesse Helms - Mr Republican to many - relied on the Affirmative Action ad showing the black man in the background waiting for the just pink slipped white man’s job.

Maybe it’s me, but I cannot think of an equivalent ad run by a national Democrat. Can anyone?

reply to post by donwhite


Don,

Come on now, you are not dealing with a couple of "Who's smarter than a fifth grader" contestants... We know what you meant and no manner of "word manipulation" will change that.

I can give you the exact definition of Bull Excrement. Wont make it smell any better when it hits you, but maybe you can feel better about it.

For you to suppose that "mudslinging" and the use of race in politics, is the strict venue of Republicans is the height of ignorance and you really should know me better than that by now. I came off the farm, just not yesterday.

As for definitions...

I personally like numbers, 1, 4 and 5 in reference to your comments..

SLANDER:

1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
3. Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
–verb (used with object)
4. to utter slander against; defame.
–verb (used without object)
5. to utter or circulate slander.

Dictionary.com

Now THAT is the real definition...

Semper

Reference to Race in the election, here are some tidbits..

Clinton Race Comment.



Obama Plays Race Card



Obama's Grandmother "Typical White Person"



Jesse Jackson JR, Obama's Co-Chair.. WOW!!



Hillary again..



Don't fall for the Lib strategy of throwing mud only one way. It goes both.

Semper

posted by semperfortis

Don, Come on now, you are not dealing with a couple of "Who's smarter than a fifth grader" contestants ... We know what you meant and no manner of "word manipulation" will change that. I can give you the exact definition of Bull Excrement. Wont make it smell any better when it hits you, but maybe you can feel better about it.

TO: Fellow Posters

RE: Board courtesy

I previously posted material commenting on Senator John McCain. As one of our national leaders likes to say, my critique was ROBUST.

Some readers took offense. I missed the opportunity to acknowledge their umbrage. Instead I offered justifications for my unwelcome comments.

The point I missed was that I intend to be here AFTER the election and therefore, I should be more concerned how my fellow posters see my material than making fine points.

I am sorry to have offended anyone.

And Don,

I also apologize if my defense of his military service offended you.

Kind of goes with who I am ...

Semper