Obama meets privately with Michigan Muslim leader

reply to post by wutone

You sure, you seem so angry a little while ago and it seems you still are.

You know this isn't helpful. "You sure?" Like what? I'm secretly out to get you to shut up? I don't want that, I want you to address the real issues here. I'm hardly angry with you. Not even a little irritated I'm actually enjoying this debate and look forward to further ones. But I would like to see this debate move on beyond the shaky foundations of divisive propaganda and move on to something with substance. I harbor no ill-feelings for you in any shape or form.

what exactly does this mean?

It means that your assertions of his character in relation to the Muslim community is inherently wrong, and it seems to painful for you to actually look at the information out there. I posted those links because in an earlier post you asked me to provide you with the conversation points to address real issues, and Obama's politics, and when I did that you dismissed it outright.

What are your trying to say? Is this hypocrisy I see?

How so? You are accusing Obama supporters of being stupid and blindly following when I, as an Obama supporter have proven to you that I check my sources and I check my candidate. And all I want to do is discuss the economy, not one thread has attacked Obama's economy policies, or his war policies, or his fiscal policies, or his health care policies. It's just muslim this and muslim that, and the accusations fly without thought to substantiating claims.

My problem with Obama, as it relates to this thread, is how the media and Obama supporters seem to try to hide any dealings with Muslims. The reason why I say this is because the Obama followers know that any publicity with Obama and a Muslim will arouse suspicions among many Americans( I never said they were the correct suspicions) that Obama is secretly a Muslim. This will in turn affect Obama's vote in a possible general election.

Then I apologize for the misinterpretation but you did make it seem that way. Seriously my apologies.

I don't hide any point of contention. I meet challenges I don't sweep them under the carpet. If you have this pre-conceived notion that all Obama supporters are one thing or another then how are we to come to a middle ground in a debate? I'm going to ask you for a bit of objectivity when it come to supporters. I don't care how slanted you get on Obama, just try to treat your fellow Americans with a bit more respect and acknowledgement of intelligence.

On the other hand, I remember when the media pointed out gleefully how Bush had old ties to the Saudi's. See the hypocrisy? (look above in your own words to find an example)

That is because Bush has ties to oil companies and and is part of the problem as far as our oil crisis is concerned. Obama's campaign associations(Like Muslim spokesmen and women) are about bridging gaps, Bush's associations are about money and how to further his idiotic war agenda, and how to further exploit other countries for their resources.
The hypocrisy is maintaining a relationship with a country's leadership that is oppressive to the core, and profiting from it, while at the same time condemning the practices in other nations we're not invested in.

The media is in it for Obama. This is easy to prove. I bet if a republican had any past that would link him to anything Muslim, the media would be all over it.

Um, so this is about party? There are TONS of Republicans and Democrats who have ties to muslims, but not clerics, oil rich oppressive dictators yes, but not peace preaching clerics...God figure. It's all in the subtleties.

By the way to prove that I don't think Obama is a closet muslim i'll give you this, www.blackagendareport.com...

Obama should always keep military options open. But I will say this, I don't much agree with his stance on this. But at the same time I don't think it will ever come to that.

When he made that comment the first time the military had used it's overflight privileges in Pakistan to hit targets just inside. So what would Obama be doing that the current Admin isn't? We have to finish the war in Afghanistan, and in order to do that we have to resupply and redeploy and finish what we started. Part of that is going to be handled in Pakistan because that's where Osama is right?











[edit on 21-5-2008 by projectvxn]

Originally posted by projectvxn
I don't care how slanted you get on Obama, just try to treat your fellow Americans with a bit more respect and acknowledgement of intelligence.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by projectvxn]

I would like to see Obama supporters treat fellow Americans that don't support Obama with a bit more respect also, I have seen worse disrespect leveled against dissenters. It seems that anyone that attacks Obama is labeled as a racist, elitist, Bush minion, right-winger, war-monger, CIA agent, disinformationist, shill etc. It gets pretty hard to respect Obama supporters after a while so if they like doing their same "you are a racist" comebacks, I can easily assume that they are under a cult influence because there is too much emotion and not enough brains.

Originally posted by projectvxn
That is because Bush has ties to oil companies and and is part of the problem as far as our oil crisis is concerned. Obama's campaign associations(Like Muslim spokesmen and women) are about bridging gaps, Bush's associations are about money and how to further his idiotic war agenda, and how to further exploit other countries for their resources.
[

I never said otherwise. My complaint lies with the media. As I said, if a republican were to have the same visit, the media will make sure to make some sort of issue. This has nothing to do with oil or dictator ties. This has to do with a suspicious white America that happens to be a very important voter block in the general elections.

This is an issue of perspective. Obama's media backers know about the Hussein middle name and are very careful not let any association between him and Muslims be publicized to any normal extent. The OP topic is hardly anywhere on the news, I wonder why?

As Geraldine Ferraro said, "If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position....". How true and surprising coming from a democrat, no wonder she was forced to quit her spot the Clinton campaign and become a general fundraiser.. The media is treating him too easy and his supporters are assuming that anyone that opposes has racial reasons.

Issues are easy to talk about, I disagree with like Obama's support for the Global Poverty Act or which basically gives our taxes to foreign dictators and corrupt UN officials or the Housing Bailout that pretty much bails out the people who caused the housing crash by speculation. There is also issues of gun control, taxation, and a blind foreign policy. This would turn the post into a novel if I kept going.

Then Obama's history is not that of the great "unifier' he and his supporters claim him to be. How will he unify the country with his ties to a racist church?How will he unify the country with politics that are vastly left of center, one would think a moderate would be better.

But issues don't matter. All I see is personal attacks in response to questions about Obama's past and politics. "you must be racist. blah blah". The "cult" card makes for an effective retaliation.

Why would I call Obama a Muslim anyways? Not many Muslims believe in partial birth abortion, gay issues and other leftist ideas that Obama has.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by wutone]

reply to post by wutone


I'm glad I finally understand your position. I would never call you a racist. You seem to have an aversion to muslims, but I don't know if that suspicion is founded on fact or my interpretation of your posts in a text only medium that makes it difficult to convey context properly. Again if I did say anything(It's a long thread so far so it's hard to tell) offensive to you I apologize, I want to be able to debate with you and every other member of this site without preconceived notions, and outright slander. If you and I can do that then I think we;ve actually achieved something useful. Agree?

Originally posted by projectvxn
You seem to have an aversion to muslims, but I don't know if that suspicion is founded on fact or my interpretation of your posts in a text only medium that makes it difficult to convey context properly.

Why would I have an aversion to Muslims? I might be critical to some of the those double standards but much of it is due to the media.

The media is where my aversion goes to. The media has hyped too many things in the past decade and everything resulted in the American people paying badly. It so happens that the media is now hyping Obama or at least letting him get away with stuff. As much as I hate his policies, that media hype gets me very suspicious. This is the same media that hyped the war in Iraq when it started,remember?

Originally posted by projectvxn
I want to be able to debate with you and every other member of this site without preconceived notions, and outright slander. If you and I can do that then I think we;ve actually achieved something useful. Agree?

And why apologize, you are one of the few that has actually been able to calm down and respond intelligently.

In terms of agreement, it might be hard to agree on anything until we agree what the preconceived notions are.

Additionally there are some members who happen to be Obama supporters that follow Obama with a cult like passion and respond accordingly. If I had a dollar for every "you must be a closet racist" response I have seen, I would be rich. Yes I'll try to be more surgical in my targeting so I don't make a blanket accusation, but there are some people on ATS, along with the media people getting tingles down their legs and taking pictures of Obama with a halo, that make for fair targets.

There is a lot of applied ignorance on this site regarding Muslims and Islam. And if you try to enlighten them they slap their blinders on even tighter.

In reply to all the replies I have gotten. Listen, I had just seen an interview with Obama at Fox News. He was wearing the American flag. But that still does not make him a good leader. Time and time again like I had said, he does not ever tell us what he is going to change. He just keeps promising us "A CHANGE." Did anyone read that part of my reply? Of course not. As soon as anyone who disagrees with Obama speaks out. People just keep talking smack saying "Oh if his name was Clinton you would like him. Shut Up please. That is not the reason. Anyone notice that the reverend Wright denouncement was planned? And did you also know that Michelle Obama was with Reverend Wright many times after that denouncement? Probably not? Either way I do not care about his religion or race. I care about what type of person he is. Just watch a couple of the debates between him and Clinton. He glares at her when she criticizes him. Almost as if he is trying to kill her with his Glare. Hahahaha. I think that was one of the funniest things I have ever seen on television. He gets so angry when someone does not agree with his political stance or agendas. Grow up Barack. Also did you all see how he left the primary state he lost? He flew right to the next state. What a baby. Grow the hell up Barack. We need a leader not a baby. One more thing I'd like to put out there. I would vote for Barack over any of the candidates, but some of these things I see and analyze just make me say. What the hell are you doing man? Go head bring on the criticism!

reply to post by Jdubbas1



I understand wanting to know who you're voting for. But witch hunts are witch hunts. If you don't agree with his policies on things, say so and say why. The problem with this debate is that alot of people fling insults and fling accusations and come up with no evidence or proof. Just damned loose associations that any of us could have. In this thread alone I posted links to Obama's web site, his financial records, his resume, his voting records in both senate and state senate.

Use that all you want to build an anti Obama argument, that I don't mind. I love debating that stuff. But having to time and time again have to debate issues that come Inauguration Day won't mean a bloody thing.

Because by then we'll still have a situation out of control in Iraq, a crumbling economy driven by predatory corporations, a health care crisis that won't go away, an energy crisis that is getting worse and worse almost by the hour, an unfinished and underfunded war in Afghanistan, not to mention the criminal investigation that will have to take place on Bush and his war crimes. We also have to repair our relationship with the rest of the world. Because if we don't we'll wind up in world war 3, or we will eventually cause enough harm to the environment that GW will start to seriously affect world food supplies, water supplies, and other essentials that when scarce, start wars of ugly proportions.

There's already a full plate, why throw more on it that doesn't even hold the value of it's own weight? All I'm saying is this time we're wasting on these incredibly divisive issues, could be better spent trying to come together to solve these issues.

Originally posted by grover
There is a lot of applied ignorance on this site regarding Muslims and Islam. And if you try to enlighten them they slap their blinders on even tighter.

I've noticed this. I wonder how ATS feels about the racists and the propaganda peddlers that are actually here causing problems.

I don't know... you'd have to ask Skeptic Overlord... but in my humble opinion they are an embarrassment and make this site look bad.

Then again if we do have freedom of speech then they are free to spew all the hate and ignorance they like so long as the owners of the site put up with them.

I really don't believe that Obama is Muslim but if he is... who cares. There is no rule or law that the pres of the us has to be Christian.

reply to post by stellawayten


I agree, there is no rule those who serve need to be any religion.
I do however wonder why things like below are permitted to happen now, cops being blind to violent behavior and even harassing people just exercise their 1at Amendment rights.
(MOB ATTACK IN MICHIGAN)

Originally posted by Quarantine
How much more evidence do you pro Obama voters need?

Well congrats, you made me gasp... I mean, this is how you approach events in this nation? Talking to a cleric makes you a suspect, a jihadist and/or a public enemy? Not to mention it makes you a Muslim?

Somebody please pinch me, it's either bad trolling happening here or our country is indeed beyond hope.