The Rainbow Serpents

Aborigines and Extraterrestrials

The premise of this article is to ask our oldest fellow humans about some of the mysteries that elude us. There is sufficient evidence that the Aboriginal People of Australia roamed the earth an amazing 50 000 to 130 000 years ago.The indigenous languages of the various aboriginal groups have been found not to be related to any language outside of Australia. This indicates that they may have passed down knowledge from the distant past untouched and unaltered by outside influences.

If we factor out what the aborigines were taught about history, life and reality by the British Settlers and what they believed prior to adapting to modern culture, ideals and belief-systems, we can learn a thing or two about our mysterious origins. According to their own accounts they have passed down their knowledge for tens of thousands of years in oral traditions, values and ceremonies.

Aborigines refer to their ancient time and their present day reality as “dreamtime”. Important ancestral beings include:

The rainbow serpent: This is an ancient being or deity that "molded the barren and featureless earth".

Contrary to the claims of mainstream science, the aborigines are not the only people to have a “rainbow serpent” in their Mythology. The rainbow serpent is also known to various african tribes or the african Bantu religion. In fact, maybe it is no coincidence that Harvard scientist Wade Davis book on Haitan Voodoo and Secret Societies of the West Indies (which originate in Africa) is called "The Serpent and The Rainbow". Neither would it be the only account that somehow associates human origins with Serpents. We are reminded of the ancient biblical tale of the serpent in the garden of Eden, ancient Chinese tails of flying dragons, ancient germanic tales referring to the “Lindwurm” which, according to mythology was a flying dragon who shaped the earth, or even of the ancient egyptian tale called “The Shipwrecked sailor” which refers to a beautiful garden that sunk in a flood after being inhabited by very colorful serpents. An excerpt from this ancient egyptian text:

"Suddenly I heard a noise as of thunder, which I thought to be that of a wave of the sea. The trees shook, and the earth was moved. I uncovered my face, and I saw that a serpent drew near. He was thirty cubits long, and his beard greater than two cubits; his body was as overlaid with gold, and his color as that of true lazuli. He coiled himself before me. "Then he opened his mouth, while that I lay on my face before him, and he said to me, "What has brought you, what has brought you, little one, what has brought you? If you say not speedily what has brought you to this isle, I will make you know yourself; as a flame you shall vanish, if you tell me not something I have not heard, or which I knew not, before you.'

When describing the serpent the ancients always referred to it with the most beautiful colours or mixes of colour. Do we have evidence of common, globally shared distant memories of ancient times here? Maybe.


Baiame: According to aboriginal dreamtime accounts the deity baiame “came down from the sky to the land and created rivers, mountains and forests. He then gave the people their laws of life, their traditions, their songs and their culture. When he had finished he returned to the sky and people called him the Sky Hero or the All Father. Baiame is said to be married to Birraghnooloo, “a godess who sends floods”. The idea of Gods sending floods is reflected in ancient greek, ancient egyptian, ancient aztec and ancient sumerian mythology.

Bunjil: Of many aboriginal groups this is the supreme God. According to some tribes this is the rainbow serpents father. Others claim he is a cultural hero that came down from the sky, taught people the arts and then went back up to the sky. Yet other tribal groups claim he created mankind.

Having read this far, is aboriginal mythology reminding you of anything at all? No matter if the mythology is south american or african or chinese or northern european, the themes repeat, with flying serpents, gods coming down from the sky and returning back, gods teaching culture and so forth. I actually did not expect to find these very same elements in aboriginal history considering that they seemed remote and unrelated to other cultures of our planet.

“But it's only mythology, isn't it?” the skeptic says. “Mythologies are works of fiction”.

But then why do they all feature a serpent? Why not a cat? And what would you say if many of the aborigines “tall tales” have meanwhile been scientifically verified? Would that lend more credence to their stories of gods and godesses roaming the earth a long time ago?

Fortunately the aborigines oral traditions seem to have survived unobstructed by book burnings and religious or political zealots who sought to suppress any knowledge of earlier grandness.

It is known that aborigines have a deep appreciation of the earth and nature which they revere as to what we might term “sacred”. The Australian linguist R.M.W. Dixon who spend some time recording their myths in the original languages, discovered coincidences between some of the landscape details being told in the “myths” and some newer scientific evidence about those landscapes. I quote:

In the case of the Atherton Tableland myths telling of the origins of Lake Eacham, Lake Barine, and Lake Euramo, geological research had dated the same formative volcanic explosions described by Aboriginal myth tellers, as having occurred more than 10 000 years ago. Pollen fossil sampling from the silt that'd settled to the bottom of those craters since their formation confirmed Aboriginal myth-tellers advice that at the time eucalypt forests dominated rather than the current wet tropical rain forests.

Dixon observed, from the evidence available, Aboriginal myths regarding the origin of the Crater Lakes might be dated as accurate back to 10 000 years ago.. Further investigation of these observations by the Australian Heritage Commission lead to the Crater Lakes myth being listed nationally on the Register of the National Estate, and included within Australia's World Heritage nomination of the wet tropical forests, as an "unparalleled human record of events dating back to the Pleistocene era".

Since then Dixon assembled a number of similar examples of Aboriginal myths performed or told around Australia accurately describing the landscapes of an ancient past, particularly noting the large number of myths telling of previous sea levels, including


* the Port Phillip Bay myth recorded as being told to Mr Robert Russell in 1850, describing Port Phillip Bay as dry land once, and the course of the Yarra River being once different (following the then Carrum Carrum swamp) - an oral recollection that would have been accurate 10 000 years ago

* the Great Barrier Reef coastline myth told to Dixon himself in Yarrabah, just south of Cairns telling of a past coastline (since flooded) which stood at the edge of the current Great Barrier Reef, and naming places now completely submerged after the forest types and trees that once grew there - an oral record that would have been accurate 10 000 years ago

* the Lake Eyre myths recorded by J.W Gregory in 1906 telling of the deserts of Central Australia once being fertile, well watered plains and the deserts around present Lake Eyre having been one continuous garden - an oral recollection which matches geologists' understanding that there was a wet phase to the early Holocene when the Lake would have had permanent water.

In other words: What some of our more arrogant "experts" decry as silly fiction and myth has been proven to be amazingly accurate. A group of people who can recall precise events that happened 10 000 years ago will likely be able to tell us more.

An interesting aspect of aboriginal myth is that while there are more than 400 different groups, tribes and languages of indigenous people, they all have common themes within their mythological history. Not only do almost all of them feature a variation of the “rainbow serpent” as a cultural hero...but also refer to Captain Cook in their myths as a cultural hero. This matches the accounts of some other global indigenous tribes who, in their so-called “cargo cults” viewed invading Europeans as “returning gods”.

It´s not like any of these puzzle pieces are new or not available to the general public but that the pieces haven't been put together yet. And if they have, they've been dismissed as “coincidence”.

So this is yet another case for the “ancient astronaut theory” according to which the “gods” were space-travelers (human, human-like or alien) who's technological and/or spiritual development made them appear as “culture bearers” or “Gods”. And just when we thought the whole idea had been debunked we found out that evidence for it can be collected from an almost forgotten source.

Some readers will now interject that the aborigines are not referring to in-the-flesh, physical and touchable Gods but rather to “spirits” as we define them in religion. This has always been an issue within ancient-astronaut-theory: Did they ancients refer to physical beings that flew up to the sky or to spiritual beings that flew to “the heavens”? In the context of this question it is interesting to note that aborigine thinking makes no difference between the two. This is evidenced in the famous book “Mutant Messages Down Under” by Marlo Morgan. It would digress from the main topic here to describe the world-view, but similar to various other spiritual traditions, the physical world and the spiritual world are experienced as the same thing varying in “levels of density” from the subtle or etheric to the unsubtle or physical. The “Gods” can therefore appear in both forms. This correspondence nicely to ancient egyptian, ancient greek and even buddhist doctrine.

Suffice it to say that the words for “sky” and “heaven” are the same in many other languages and that the ancients did have separate terms for referring to the afterlife or to the sky (see for example the Ancient Egyptian “Book of the Dead”. What our religiously biased translators of the medieval have interpreted to mean “ascending to the afterlife” actually refers to “ascending to the sky”. So we are left with thousands of ancient accounts of Gods and Serpents going and coming from the sky.

A side-note I want to address is that there are modern aboriginal accounts of UFO-Encounters and Alien-Abductions. The reason I am not discussing them here is because there is the possibility that these tales are colored by modern culture. Modern aborigines do have access to Televisions and endless reruns of the X-Files.

What is of interest to our modern view of extraterrestrials, especially the so-called “greys” are the ancient accounts of the “sky” or “cloud” beings called Wondjina or Wandjina. Rock Art that depicts the Wandjina show beings with huge eyes, small noses and no or only very small mouths. Compare the pictures (I will post later) with what we know modern day “grey aliens” look like.

Another researcher on the Aborigines-Extraterrestrial Connection is Ufologist Bill Chalker who has made some very interesting observations on the subject.

This is what he has to say on a tribe called “the Bad” of Western Australia:

The aboriginal tribe, the Bad, revered "a supreme being" called Djamar. According to tradition he manifested in a manner highly suggestive of "something" landing and leaving behind a physical record. Of course the reverse can argued. That is that the aborigines invested supernatural dimensions into many prosaic features of the natural landscape.
The young initiates of the tribe were led to the stony bed of a creek and were shown the holes where Djamar had planted his "bullroarer". In aboriginal lore the sound of the "bullroarer" -- a roaring wind noise -- symbolised the approach of the god. The original accounts indicate that Djamar's bullroar or "galuguru" are representations of the "being" itself. According to E.A. Worms:
"Earnestly the old men impress on the youths the terrible force of the original tjurunga, by pointing out the baldness of the surrounding hills and the damaged bark of the trees struck by Djamar when he whirled the bull-roarer. It smashed the rocks of the foreshore."

After the manifestation of Djamar, which left behind all this damage, the supreme being himself ascended once again into the sky with his "tjurunga". Such accounts lost in prehistory are full of emotive similarities but beyond that they are only diverting tales of the Australian aboriginal 'dreamtime'.

Another interesting observation Chalker made, relates to the similarity of ancient aboriginal shamanic initiation rites and modern day “alien abduction experiences”. Throughout dreamtime history shamans (called “wise men” or “men of higher degree” by the aborigines) have described “ascents” to the “sky gods” in which removal or rearrangement of body parts, ritual disembowelment, implanting of artifacts, journeys into strange realms, alien guarianship, personal empowerment, and transformation occur to the abducted (or in a shamanic sense to the “initiated”).

At the turn of the last century, anthropologists Spencer and Gillen, in their book The Northern Tribes of Central Australia (1904), provided a classic account of the extraordinary shaman genre.
An aborigine, Kurkutji, was set upon by two spirits, Mundadji and Munkaninji, in a cave:

"Mundadji cut him open, right down the middle line, took out all of his insides and exchanged them for those of himself, which he placed in the body of Kurkutji. At the same time he put a number of sacred stones in his body. After it was all over, the youngest spirit, Munkaninji, came up and restored him to life, told him that he was now a medicine-man and showed him how to extract bones and other forms of evil magic out of them. Then he took him away up into the sky and brought him down to earth close to his own camp, where he heard the natives mourning for him, thinking that he was dead. For a long time he remained in a more or less dazed condition, but gradually he recovered and the natives knew that he had been made into a medicine-man. When he operates the spirit Mukaninji is supposed to be near at hand watching him, unseen of course by ordinary people."

Elkin pointed out one particularly evocative example of shamanic lore:
"Amongst the powers of the Mara medicine-men is that of climbing at night by means of a rope invisible to ordinary mortals up to the sky, where he can hold converse with the star people."

Eliade quotes A.W. Howitt's "The Native Tribes of South-East Australia, when he recounts the initiation of a Wiradjuri medicine man:

"We will go up to Baiames camp. He got astride of a Muir (thread) and put me on another, and we held by each other's arms. At the end of the thread was Wombu, the bird of Baiame. We went through the clouds, and on the other side was the sky. We went through the place where the Doctors go through, and it kept opening and shutting very quickly. My father said that, if it touched a Doctor when he was going through it would hurt his spirit and when he returned home he would sicken and die. On the other side we saw Baiame sitting in his camp."

In modern parlance we have a lesser, but never the less similar Australian account:

"...a beam of white light dazzled my inner eye and I felt myself soar through the air, upwards into the sky and I was spinning all the while ... I was drawn along this beam of light, but then the effort was too much and it flickered away. Then in what seemed only minutes later I burst back to full conscious awareness ... I was lying on a floor of a room which was dimly lit ... I looked up ... and saw the figure of a man..."

This description comes from an Australian UFO contactee and "astral" abductee named Frank Lavery. His account appeared in Psychic Australian, July, 1977.

Even then in 1977 I was pointing out the common denominators between UFO contact and abduction accounts with shaman initiation accounts, for example the alien entity, the period of disorientation, the travelling into the sky in some cases, and the "experience of death and rising again."

Utilizing the Internet I have found several other accounts and claims of ancient-astronaut-theory in regards to aborigines but I will not include them here because they are unverified. One of these unverified stories refers to “Ayers Rock” and an ancient “red egg” landing at the site and humanoid beings getting out of their craft. As there is no mythological or scholary corroboration on this, this would seem to be a typical example of aborigines inventing new myths after having watched the x-files or being persuaded by non-aboriginal-UFO-Enthusiasts. I mention hoaxes like this because this is where the serious researcher of the subject could be led astray. The difficulty of discerning between mythological tradition and modern invention lies in the fact that aborigines transferred their memories orally rather than in written form. A researcher will do good to reference written translations of such accounts that pre-date or modern age UFO folklore.

Still, the fact that very ancient myth has been verified with hard scientific evidence, makes it difficult for the skeptic to use the double-standard of “well, what they said about landscapes is accurate, but what they said about sky-gods is not”. When also factoring in the congruence to myths of other countries it should at least be clear that the ancients all remembered similar events that we have forgotten.

To readers of this thread: Do share your knowledge of aborigenes, ancient serpents, ancient australia and its extraterrestrials.

Sources


Aborigenes

Aboriginal Mythology

Aborigines Age

UFO-Abductions and Aborigines

The pictures mentioned in the opening post:

I have been theorizing for some time now that human civilization began on the lands of Australia and Japan. There are many submerged temples, I'm sure, that haven't been found yet. Here is one in Japan off the island of Yonaguni [link] that is supposedly proof of civilization 10,000+ years ago.

But on to your main points. Serpents are indeed prevalent in almost all religions. However, they are regarded as good and evil given your different theological standpoint. They are, to this day, some of the most misunderstood creatures on earth for having such a population. They are feared and hated, yet celebrated and studied. Is this something innate in us? Maybe something ancient?

As far as the alien theory and the aborigines, I certainly always found something very "unique" to their art. It seemed way too well done for such an early form of humanity. And there are, to this day, depictions of some very ET-looking characters. I am no expert on aborigines, just a big fan of their history based on my love for all things Aussie.

Now on them being the early "Gods," I would ask this, just as I would ask anybody in any religion.. If God came down and spoke to us back THEN, why not NOW? If aliens came and chilled with their earthly homies THEN, why now NOW?

Hehe, maybe we are one big convoluted science experiment. Or maybe these aliens found us many many many years ago and have just hung out in silence ever since.

I think it comes back to the seas.. When we have our oceans mapped in their entirety, I think we will know a helluva lot more about our origins, and maybe even about our visitors.

Sorry for the disjointed response, it is very late (early) here, and I need some sleep!

Great thread though, with some truly thought-provoking stuff. Sturred and Flogged.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
As far as the alien theory and the aborigines, I certainly always found something very "unique" to their art. It seemed way too well done for such an early form of humanity. And there are, to this day, depictions of some very ET-looking characters. I am no expert on aborigines, just a big fan of their history based on my love for all things Aussie.

I actually wrote this article while dabbling around wikipedia and finding out that some of their myths about landscapes (dating back 10 000 years) have been scientifically verified as accurate. That blew my mind.

So when looking deeper in to their mythology you can imagine how surprised I was to find that its the same old ancient themes like we have them.

Now on them being the early "Gods," I would ask this, just as I would ask anybody in any religion.. If God came down and spoke to us back THEN, why not NOW? If aliens came and chilled with their earthly homies THEN, why now NOW?

Research points to a non-interference treaty. In the book of Enoch they say the Gods left the earth and destroyed and hid all the evidence of their presence.

A non-interference agreement would allow for humans to gain self-responsibility.

I think it comes back to the seas.. When we have our oceans mapped in their entirety, I think we will know a helluva lot more about our origins, and maybe even about our visitors.

Thats right. There´s no doubt in my mind that thats where all the stuff not stolen, hidden and destroyed will be found.

Excellent research there you came across things I wasnt even aware of.


Try and find an audio clip of the bullroarer noise bring it back here and see if anyone recognises it. (interesting experiment this one)

Tidbit to ponder.........

Aboriginal people do not like to see pictures,video,audio etc of those who have died. If they show a picture or audio of a deceased Aboriginal person in Australia they have to give a warning at the begining of the program for the sake of other Aboriginals that may be watching.

Comparison to other Cultures


Source: Encyclopedia

In one Native American story, an evil serpent kills one of the gods' cousins, so the god kills the serpent in revenge. But the dying serpent unleashes a great flood. People first flee to the mountains and then, when the mountains are covered, they float on a raft until the flood subsides

In the Hebrew Bible (the Tanach) of Judaism, the speaking serpent (Hebrew nahash) in the Garden of Eden brought forbidden knowledge

According to Joseph Campbell's Occidental Mythology, Yahweh is believed to have originated as a serpent consort of the Jewish earth mother goddess Asherah.

Jörmungandr, alternately referred to as the Midgard Serpent or World Serpent, is a sea serpent of the Norse mythology, the middle child of Loki and the giantess Angrboða.

Serpents figured prominently in archaic Greek myths. According to some sources, Ophion ("serpent", a.k.a. Ophioneus), ruled the world with Eurynome before the two of them were cast down by Cronus and Rhea

Serpents, or nagas, play a particularly important role in Cambodian mythology. A well-known story explains the emergence of the Khmer people from the union of Indian and indigenous elements, the latter being represented as nagas

In Fiji Ratumaibulu was a serpent god who ruled the underworld and made fruit trees bloom.

In Ancient Egypt, where the earliest written cultural records exist, the serpent appears from the beginning to the end of their mythology

The Vision Serpent was also a symbol of rebirth in Mayan mythology, fuelling some cross-Atlantic cultural contexts favored in pseudoarchaeology.

Notice how "they" love to call anything LINKING this worldwide congruency as "pseudoarchaeology".

Sometimes serpents and dragons are used interchangeably, having similar symbolic functions

Looking for more? Check out the page this was sourced from.

How can our scientific establishment possibly claim "coincidence" on this or attribute it to a "psychological fear of snakes". If that were true, why dont we have all kinds of creation myths on spiders?

reply to post by KTK


Thanks for the pointer.

I wonder where to get a bullroarer noise

[edit on 16-5-2008 by Skyfloating]

Ill try and describe to the best of my ability.


Do you have nylon washing line rope where you are? Maybe hedge trimmer rope?? Imagine the noise it would make if I was to swing a length around till I had a vibrationary noise. Mind the bullroarer sound is much more powerful.

Originally posted by KTK
Ill try and describe to the best of my ability.


Do you have nylon washing line rope where you are? Maybe hedge trimmer rope?? Imagine the noise it would make if I was to swing a length around till I had a vibrationary noise. Mind the bullroarer sound is much more powerful.

Wow...just imagining it gives me goosebumps. I think I "get it".

The word mythology (from Greek([μυθολογία] (help·info))[1]) refers to a body of folklore/myths/legends that a particular culture believes to be true and that use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity

If myth is fiction, then why, as the opening post shows, have aboriginal myths turned out to know scientific facts of which we are told they were "discovered" just recently?

This fact invites us to re-define the meaning of mythology entirely.

Its in one of the Crocodile Dundee movies correct?

I'm thinking probably the second movie towards the end where they head back to Aus.

I'm not sure if this is a 'bullroarer'. If it is theres a sound and its pretty damn loud compared to a nylon rope.

reply to post by seenitall


I dont know. But the sound KTK described reminds me of nightmares I had as a child. Immediate recognition and memory when she described it.

reply to post by seenitall




Sounds about right, I cant remember the movie but the description and context would be right. I do remember hearing it in a movie and crocodile dundee would be a likely candidate.


Its not the easiest sound to find as recordings of it are offensive to Aboriginal people. The best you can find are lame white people desecrating the instrument and by no means doing the sound justice on you tube. Seems to be associated with what they call "secret mens bussiness". They are very careful about mingling sexual/gender energies during different ceremonies. I live under a mountain I cant climb under tribal law.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

The word mythology (from Greek([μυθολογία] (help·info))[1]) refers to a body of folklore/myths/legends that a particular culture believes to be true and that use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity

If myth is fiction, then why, as the opening post shows, have aboriginal myths turned out to know scientific facts of which we are told they were "discovered" just recently?

This fact invites us to re-define the meaning of mythology entirely.

Thanks so much for starting up this thread on this very intriguing topic! I'm in complete agreement with you that the field of folklore and mythology deserves a completely new approach that utilizes a more comprehensive interdisciplinary paradigm than the narrow and myopic one that academics have been working within at our universities for too long now.

And this is unfortunate because by staying within the confines of those limitations imposed upon those academics by those institutions they are affiliated with, their theories and hypothesis' are slanted and are ultimately severely flawed because they reflect the prevailing (and imposed) view that folklore and mythology are only made-up stories by the culture in which they originated from when in reality there's much, much more to it!

[edit on 16-5-2008 by wang_ke_~]

Hi there wang_ke. Nice new avatar and new screenname.

Lets sit and watch how debunkers try to explain-away the mythology-turned-fact pointed out in the OP.

Oh what fun!!
I can't wait!
But am reading over your research on this more carefully and will offer some more of my insights on this fascinating material!

Two final ancient "Wandjina" cave-art pictures to point out that these "sky gods" dont entirely look like aborigines but somewhat human nevertheless.










[edit on 16-5-2008 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating



I congratulate you on the thread Skyfloating and have, in the spirit of it, indulged in a bit of atavism with regards to my avatar.

I agree with your interpretation of Aboriginal myths ..especially with the fact that they have been passed down for millenia uncomprimised and unadulterated. So even, as you so rightly put it, there's valid data for our scientists and historians to analyze.

As for serpents..they're seminal to all proto-religions..why??

For a more prosaic interpretation of the Mythology of Serpents, Snakes and Dragons, I would look here;

en.wikipedia.org...(symbolism)


..but also to Joseph Campbell's extensive musings on the subject.


For a more correct, but thoroughly abstruse and esoteric interpretation of the origins of these Serpents, I would suggest Blavatsky's 'The Secret Doctrine'.

At the risk of occulting this post and bringing a skunk into the lab..I would like to offer up this;

Naga (Sanskrit)Serpent; the symbol of immortality and wisdom, of renewed births, of secret knowledge and, when the tail is held in the mouth, of eternity. The nagas or serpents of wisdom are, therefore, full initiates: "the first Nagas -- beings wiser than Serpents -- are the 'Sons of Will and Yoga,' born before the complete separation of the sexes, 'matured in the man-bearing eggs produced by the power (Kriyasakti) of the holy sages' of the early Third Race" (SD 2:181).


These first nagas were the original human adepts, who were later symbolized by the terms serpents and dragons. "These 'originals' -- called to this day in China 'the Dragons of Wisdom' -- were the first disciples of the Dhyanis, who were their instructors; in short, the primitive adepts of the Third Race, and later, of the Fourth and Fifth Races. The name became universal, and no sane man before the Christian era would ever have confounded the man and the symbol" (SD 2:210).

As for the Wandjina..they speak for themselves or do they ..lol!

What do aborigines have in common with ancient chinese and ancient germanic races?

The all believed in flying serpents and dragons.


Here´s an ancient germanic "Lindwurm" in Klagenfurt, Austria:





Here are some depictions of the same thing in Bejing, China:







And this is the pat-answer the scientific establishment tries to give us:

Its a psychological fear ancient humans had of snakes., nothing more

The question then is, if its only that, then why are these serpents described as culture-bearers, as being in war with other Gods (non-serpent), as flooding the earth, as some being benevolent, etc.?

As most of them are described "spitting fire" we can instead assume that they refer to misunderstood technology and aircraft or real deities that roamed the earth long ago.



[edit on 16-5-2008 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by OEAOHOO


Hi there. Ive been aware of the occult interpretation, which I touch upon in the opening post. However, the new "twist" is "extraterrestrials and misunderstood technology".

The reason for this new twist being that some aboriginal myths have been shown to describe hard scientific facts.

Thanks for the links though and nice avatar!

[edit on 16-5-2008 by Skyfloating]