What about Russia's Stealth?!?! What about the others?!?!, page 3

posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 11:08 PM

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yes it does, it shot downa B-2A bomber in Yugoslavia, let me try to find that site again

what do u mean the SAM system would be destroyed already, don't tell me that you think a missile on the F-22, specifically the AMRAAM has a longer range than the missiles on the S-400, let me provide u wit some info

here's the site with the B-2A Spirit bomber crashing

www.aeronautics.ru...

its number 370 and was shot down at 19: 50 or 7: 50

missilethreat.com...

this site gives some info on the S-400 syetm, although very little because very little of its capabilites are known, but it will icnoporate some of the missiles used in the S-300P version, it will utilize the 9m96 missile, only for s short while, it has a range of 120 km, in 2 years, Fakel Machine Building Design Bureau, the missile will have an advanced seeker and will be able track targets well beyond the horizon line, it will have a range of 400 km, which is 2.5 times better than the S-300P and twice the range of the newest american SAM the PAC-3, the longest missile that the F-22 will utilize, if i'm not mistaken will be the AMRAAM, there are several versions, but all of them have a range in between 50km and 70 km, far shorter than that of the S-300P even, and the extended range upgrade won't happen for a long time, and even then, it won't be even close to the S-400, and at best will be slightly better than the S-300P

www.designation-systems.net...

wait, sry an F-22 will use a JDAM instead against a SAM system, here's the range of the GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munition, it has a range of 24 km

www.danshistory.com...

Murcielago

posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 11:56 PM

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Dima - I havn't heard of a B-2 getting shot down, and I cant find any info on what you say, yes, I read the link, but no US officials confirmed it, and its says the B-2 has several fighters that protect it, I think (if this happened( That their radar locked on to a F-15 but it hit the B-2, again, thats IF it happened.

Oh, and have you ever heard of JASSM, yeah, thats right, goodbye SAMS.

Disturbed Deliverer

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 12:28 AM

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No B-2 was shot down during Kosovo. Your source is spouting nonsense. If this happened, why aren't there pictures? There is no way America could have hid a crash like that. The Serbs would have been bragging.

I don't trust too many Russian sites. The motives for lying are obvious. I've seen it in the past, such as when the Iraq war started and certain Russian news sites were reporting massive casualties.

what do u mean the SAM system would be destroyed already, don't tell me that you think a missile on the F-22, specifically the AMRAAM has a longer range than the missiles on the S-400, let me provide u wit some info

The F-22 is not designed for the same role as a B-2 or F-117. It's a fighter first. It's not going to be heading into thick defenses like your suggesting. The best SAM's would be targeted by cruise missiles. B-2's would follow up.

this site gives some info on the S-400 syetm, although very little because very little of its capabilites are known, but it will icnoporate some of the missiles used in the S-300P version, it will utilize the 9m96 missile, only for s short while, it has a range of 120 km, in 2 years, Fakel Machine Building Design Bureau, the missile will have an advanced seeker and will be able track targets well beyond the horizon line, it will have a range of 400 km, which is 2.5 times better than the S-300P and twice the range of the newest american SAM the PAC-3, the longest missile that the F-22 will utilize, if i'm not mistaken will be the AMRAAM, there are several versions, but all of them have a range in between 50km and 70 km, far shorter than that of the S-300P even, and the extended range upgrade won't happen for a long time, and even then, it won't be even close to the S-400, and at best will be slightly better than the S-300P

I know all about the missiles. I'm more curious about the radar. How exactly does it detect a stealth plane? There are only two techniques I've seen. One is PCL, which no one has developed to date. The other is low frequency waves which I doubt are very effective at this point.

waynos

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 06:19 AM

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I'm afraid they're right Dima, the only stealth aircraft to be brought down by AA fire was an F-117 not a B-2. Because the F-117 is used on bombing missions it got reported that a stealth bomber was brought down, as the only real stealth bomber is the B-2 conclusions were jumped to without any evidence to back them up. The only wreckage ever displayed came from an F-117.

Dima

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 12:36 PM

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well, i'veread it in two different places, on that page, and on another page, i can't find it anymore, maybe it was damaged, but it wasn't destroyed, because, otherwise they wouldn't mention it there, and don't trust the reports that u're government give as well, a lot of it is lies, its the same with any government including russia's

anyways, the JASSM still has a shorter range than the S-400 system, the JASSM has a range in excess of 200 miles which is 320 km+

www.b1b.wpafb.af.mil...

although the ability to go Mach 7 is pretty good, russia has the Kh-555 brand new missile, and the AS-19 Koala

Disturbed Deliverer

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 12:52 PM

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The range of the missile has nothing to do with being able to take out a stealth plane. It has to be able to detect it.

waynos

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 01:07 PM

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Well, only 20 B-2's were made weren't there? I'm sure someone so inclined could trace them from their serials, that would help. I don't go on Govt reports I tend to believe the BBC. They are world reknowned and frequently off the govts christmas card list because of their true reports. Their reports are so impartial that Fox called the unpatriotic in GW2.

Dima

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 02:11 PM

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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
The range of the missile has nothing to do with being able to take out a stealth plane. It has to be able to detect it.

the S-400 is a multirole system, capable of taking out cuise missiles, bombers ICBM's and is capable of detecting stealth aircraft, it was one of the main criteria, i don't know much about the actual systems, and just search up for some information on google, but i know a guy that is a specialist in russian equipment, and he said that every SAM system has the abiltiy to track a stealth aircraft even the S-300 which are relatively old versions

Disturbed Deliverer

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 02:26 PM

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Once again, this is just what the Russians say. They have no means of truly testing this missile system.

Laxpla

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 02:30 PM

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However, the combination of F-22s and B-2s produces the added dimension of "24-hr. stealth for the first time," Jumper said. The phrase refers to the ability of F-22s to sweep any defending aircraft from the air that could endanger the B-2 during daylight hours when the bomber is vulnerable to visually directed weapons. With enemy aircraft eliminated, the F-22s and B-2s could both turn to destroying the most dangerous surface-to-air missiles--the SA-10, SA-12 and SA-20 (S-300 family) systems referred to as "double-digit SAMs"--and the even newer, Russian-made S-400 with a projected range of 250 mi. Other targets would be the communications terminals that integrate air defenses and allow enemy commanders to control their forces in the field.

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THE UPGRADED F/A-22 air-to-ground capability will produce a stealth aircraft able to "defeat modern surface-to-air missiles" like the SA-20 or S-400 family and to track and attack moving targets, he said. It also will be a key to cruise missile defense because with super-cruise speed it can position itself for both a "first and second shot," Roche revealed, which is difficult "because a cruise missile can come from any direction."

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Raptor is a step ahead of the S-400, Even UAV and UCAV are

[edit on 12-12-2004 by Laxpla]

Dima

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 04:53 PM
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are u kidding me, lol, hahaha, the S-400 will destroy the F-22 before it knows it, because when a SAM system targest the aircraft, there is no way that the aircraft will have any warning, the F-22 will probably beat the S-300 but definitely not the S-400

the first lnik that u provided us with, it shows how the F-22 and B-2's will use each otehr to sweep everything away, well, the story is told as if the oppposing country is doing nothing whatsoever, AT ALL, its a laughable story, although will work against Afghanistan again, and...............African countries, but against countries like Russia and the countries in Europe, no, no chance

well, we have two contradicitng statements, one that states that the F-22 is designed so that it will not be detected by the S-400, yet the S-400 articles state that it was designed as a mutlirole SAM system unlike the others and will be able to track stealthy planes as well as cruise missiles, and ICBM's from 400 km away and fire at them

these statements are contradictory, but, the F-22 isn't invisible, other aircraft can track it, its not like there's no signal at all, i read somewhere, i think it might have been on a forum that the B-2 has the RCS of a bumblebee and the F-22 has an RCS of a tricycle, that is very small, yet is still detectable, thats what i don't get, u think stealth and u think invisibility, but its simply NOT true

Disturbed Deliverer

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 05:03 PM
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The F-22 has the RCS of a bird.

You keep ignoring me when I point out how Russia has no means of testing these SAM's. It's all talk. You don't even know what type of radar the Russians are using.

And while stealth doesn't mean it becomes invisible, it becomes indistinguishable. The radar won't identify it as a plane. Other aircraft are highly unlikely to detect a F-22, especially when it has long range radar and missiles so it can keep distance.

Teh_Gerbil

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 05:38 PM
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The Russians tend to evade radar more that use stealth... THe MiG-25 and 31 fly at the edge of space out of some radar systems range. To be honest, I don't think they could care less for stealth tech, they are sceptical of it, they can shoot it down with no problems. Why would they want it? Countries that lack the tech to shoot down stealth planes have a weak military anyway so pose little threat!

The yanks use stealth nowadays just to show off.
Hell, if you've got it, why not? "looky, our planes don't show up on their Radar, Suuuuckers!"

Disturbed Deliverer

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 06:56 PM
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If something doesn't show up on your radar, it's pretty hard to shoot it. Nothing suggests Russia has anything that could detect stealth but talk. And if what you're saying about Russia not wanting stealth were true, they wouldn't be trying to make a stealth fifth generation plane. They wouldn't be flaunting how they have SAM's that can shoot down stealth planes.

Underestimating stealth is foolish. It gives the F-22 an incredible edge in BVR combat that people don't like to admit.

Teh_Gerbil

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 07:19 PM
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I doubt they'll get hthe 5th gen stealth plane, they're to poor. THey'll just go for Sukhoi again, with a S-37 type thing.

I thought they could pick up stealth planes with thier Radar?
Meh, otherwise their new missiles surely wouldn't be able to have calims made they could shoot down stealth planes, or at least track them.

I Disagree with the post saying that an F-22 would get shot before it knows what happening, the F-22 would probably find the S400 taken out before it got there. No sane army would send in their main, brand new fighters without protection of some kind. They'd blow up an advanced missile defence system with a cruise missile or send in some B2's or F117's first.

Russia is poor, has good tech, but can't afford to update properly. Its a sad stiuation, they don't want stealth, they want something cheap and effective. They desire it, yes, but practically they know they'll need a miracle if they are to afford it soon.

Laxpla

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Dima
are u kidding me, lol, hahaha, the S-400 will destroy the F-22 before it knows it, because when a SAM system targest the aircraft, there is no way that the aircraft will have any warning, the F-22 will probably beat the S-300 but definitely not the S-400

the first lnik that u provided us with, it shows how the F-22 and B-2's will use each otehr to sweep everything away, well, the story is told as if the oppposing country is doing nothing whatsoever, AT ALL, its a laughable story, although will work against Afghanistan again, and...............African countries, but against countries like Russia and the countries in Europe, no, no chance

well, we have two contradicitng statements, one that states that the F-22 is designed so that it will not be detected by the S-400, yet the S-400 articles state that it was designed as a mutlirole SAM system unlike the others and will be able to track stealthy planes as well as cruise missiles, and ICBM's from 400 km away and fire at them

these statements are contradictory, but, the F-22 isn't invisible, other aircraft can track it, its not like there's no signal at all, i read somewhere, i think it might have been on a forum that the B-2 has the RCS of a bumblebee and the F-22 has an RCS of a tricycle, that is very small, yet is still detectable, thats what i don't get, u think stealth and u think invisibility, but its simply NOT true

Where in my posts have I stated that stealth in invisible? It isn't, your right, but dam close. The F-15 with the most updated radar couldn't see it until it was right on top of it.

I just stated 2 sources and 2 links. There are many more, if you want, I can get you all that I can find, I am estimating around 20-30 if you want me to from reliable sites.

The S-400/S-20 is a very good SAM, but protects against lower level airforces. With the new chemical/solid state lasers deployed, Sams wouldn't be a worry.

Here is a article from the Raptor Team Website:

This aircraft combines stealth design with the supersonic, highly maneuverable, dual-engine, long-range requirements of an air-to-air fighter and will have an inherent air-to-ground capability. The F/A-22�s integrated avionics gives it first-look, first-shot, first-kill capability that will guarantee U.S. air dominance for the next 40 years.

The air threat to the United States in the year 2005 and beyond is real.

Current Russian fighters are already on par with America�s best fighter, the F-15. Europe's and Russia's newest class of fighters will surpass the F-15; they are set to roll off production lines by 2005

At least three foreign aircraft threaten to surpass the F-15�s performance in the near future: the French Rafale, the Eurofighter 2000 and the Russian Su-35. Some foreign aircraft are already at parity with the F-15

Nations are already denying America access to airspace around the globe by obtaining low-cost, but sophisticated, surface-to-air missile systems

Highly capable surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems pose a formidable challenge to the F-15�s survivability. Advanced SAM systems, because of their relatively low cost, are a quick and easy way for countries to modernize their air defense systems

Estimated twenty-one countries will possess the most advanced systems by 2005

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Any way you put it, Raptor, UCAV, and UAV are bypassing the S-400.

Dima

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 09:59 PM
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disturbed deliverer, u're foolsih, of course they've tested the SAM system, then they wouldn't start purchasing them next year if it wasn't tested, the S-300 tracked an F-117 in Yugoslavia , and the S-300 is older than the F-117, it wasn't even created to counter stealth, yet it still did!

about the F-22, i heard that it had the RCS of a tricycle from someone here at ATS, the S-400 has detecting stealth in mind

here are some links on the S-400 and it has been tested

www.cndyorks.gn.apc.org...
www.wonderland.org.nz...

the second one nearly to the end gives some info no the S-400 and the S-400 mentions that the SAM can lock onto targets without giving a signal

www.fas.org...
www.astronautix.com...
www.missilethreat.com...
warfare.ru...

the russians are also devloping a new type of radar that scans the desnity of the air, if the density is higher than the expected density of the air, then they immediately know to scramble their interceptors

and since they first developed the passive array radar, they have a lead in that technology

Dima

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 10:07 PM
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first look, first shot first kill will insure air dominance for the next 40 years, it refers to A2A, an F-22 would get slaughtered by an S-400, and lasers aren't coming out for a long time(not like 400 years, but like 10-15 years)

wow, i'm surprised in the summer when i wasn't registered u were a really flamey guy, but now u seem so calm

that F-15 excercise, everyone has heard me say this over and over and everyone is getting tired of it, but, i have to say it because every country does this, PROPAGANDA, that excercise was propaganda

don't get me wrong, the russian govrenment, every government uses propaganda

in the future, i really won't be worried about america, the F-22 will probably the last "innovative" aircraft that america will create because the way the american economy is going, u guys will be barely be able to maintain your country in the future, i have tons of # to support this, disobediance=death

Disturbed Deliverer

posted on Dec, 12 2004 @ 10:44 PM
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disturbed deliverer, u're foolsih, of course they've tested the SAM system, then they wouldn't start purchasing them next year if it wasn't tested, the S-300 tracked an F-117 in Yugoslavia , and the S-300 is older than the F-117, it wasn't even created to counter stealth, yet it still did!

The F-117 was never tracked. If it was capable to do that, it would have done so the past few nights when the F-117 used the same path and bombed them (not to mention the other F-117's used to bomb the country)...

The F-117 had a number of reasons it was less stealthy that night, and they still had to light the entire sky up to shoot it down, and that was after it dropped its payload.

As for testing, the Russians don't have any stealth planes to test it on. They don't know how it fairs against a B-2, or F-22, or F-117, or any of America's stealth planes.

first look, first shot first kill will insure air dominance for the next 40 years, it refers to A2A, an F-22 would get slaughtered by an S-400, and lasers aren't coming out for a long time(not like 400 years, but like 10-15 years)

America may very well have lasers equipped on different vehicles, even planes, within 10 years.

that F-15 excercise, everyone has heard me say this over and over and everyone is getting tired of it, but, i have to say it because every country does this, PROPAGANDA, that excercise was propaganda

It's easy to say this, but there's no real proof.

Just by looking at how the F-22 fights, it's entirely possible the F-22 could take out more then 5 F-15's. It has the most advanced avionics and radar of any plane in existance, it has long range, very accurate missiles that allow it to fire without giving up position, supercruise to move out of range even after firing, and obviously stealth.

This thing would be almost unstoppable in BVR combat against fourth generation fighters.

in the future, i really won't be worried about america, the F-22 will probably the last "innovative" aircraft that america will create because the way the american economy is going, u guys will be barely be able to maintain your country in the future, i have tons of to support this, disobediance=death

Our economy grows at the highest pace of any developed nation. We have low unemployment. We have a GDP twice the size of the nearest competition, and they have an economy mulitple times the size of our own.

The American economy is just fine.

Laxpla

posted on Dec, 13 2004 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by Dima
first look, first shot first kill will insure air dominance for the next 40 years, it refers to A2A, an F-22 would get slaughtered by an S-400, and lasers aren't coming out for a long time(not like 400 years, but like 10-15 years)

wow, i'm surprised in the summer when i wasn't registered u were a really flamey guy, but now u seem so calm

that F-15 excercise, everyone has heard me say this over and over and everyone is getting tired of it, but, i have to say it because every country does this, PROPAGANDA, that excercise was propaganda

don't get me wrong, the russian govrenment, every government uses propaganda

in the future, i really won't be worried about america, the F-22 will probably the last "innovative" aircraft that america will create because the way the american economy is going, u guys will be barely be able to maintain your country in the future, i have tons of # to support this, disobediance=death

You have any proof or sources saying that the S-400 will slaughter the Raptor? I showed sources of the Raptor able to defeat the S-400.

Anyway, the Raptor will not be going to be attacking the S-400 in the first attack, it will be the UCAV. The UCAV are able to bypass the S-400 and leave paths for the Raptors to take out the air vehicles and the bombers to wreck. As I showed sources in previous posts.

Yes, I am a calm guy now, knowing that arguing with Cold War adversaries which made me learn a lesson that they are in denial. Considering your in 10th grade is another reason too.

Actually, the F-15's had the most current radar, but the Indian pilots got the shot off first because of their missle. That's the need for the F-22.

Well, anger creates problems, if you are angered, please share you thoughts. America's economy is just fine, I'm proud to live here.

[edit on 13-12-2004 by Laxpla]