would it be possible for a robotic being with A.I. to be able to reach Spiritual Enlightenment?

for those of you out there who believe in God, or like myself Know that he is real, do you think it would be possible for a robotic being with Artificial Intelligence to be able to reach Spiritual Enlightenment????

Or would the lack of soul inhibit this???

Or perhaps some kind of A.I. Enlightenment can be reached, self-realization 2.0?????

[edit on 12-5-2008 by dominicus]

Originally posted by dominicus
for those of you out there who believe in God, or like myself Know that he is real, do you think it would be possible for a robotic being with Artificial Intelligence to be able to reach Spiritual Enlightenment????

Or would the lack of soul inhibit this???

Or perhaps some kind of A.I. Enlightenment can be reached, self-realization 2.0?????

That's kind of a funny question because the kind of people who don't believe in god or spiritual enlightenment often tend to be the kind of people who see no reason an artificial intelligence couldn't be and do anything a human can.

Having no verifiable or measurable concept of a soul, who is to say what has one and what doesn't? A soul must necessarily be separate from the biological component of the body, because the body is chemical in nature. Who is to say that a robot would not, as a thinking entity, spontaneously develop a soul?

I think that if it had the ability to learn, reason and grow mentally then sure, why not. After all our brain is pretty much an organic form of supercomputer.

well, you can ask does human intelligence develop because there is also a soul present, or does a soul develop where intelligence has , to a certain degree developed."

I think us Humans are unique, have souls, free-will, and all of us have potential to reach Spiritual Enlightenment.

Robots with A.I. I believe have the potential to reach some kind of self-realization of some sort.....but not as spiritual beings.

reply to post by dominicus


Do you think that all living things have a soul?

I personally think humans really are just biological robots anyway. A self-replicating organic entity, with a purpose that is not yet apparent to us.

No, AI is software and cannot achieve sentience, or enlightenment. Software is programmed. Set unchanging. You can change the inputs and variables but the program is stagnant.


However a Neural Network computer learns from experience, It is designed on the principles of the neuron, the elements of the brain and nervous system which is in truth one thing.

The neural network is now truly possible since IBM released the memristor the fourth basic element in electronics, into the public domain of knowledge. It has been a hidden secret since 1980. And a part of the governments most precious military program.
Why will the be allowing these chips to be sold to the public? Because you will help build the distributed neural network overlord brain. With every electronics device you purchase you will be adding a chip to the overlord mind. It will be everywhere, it will be nowhere. It will know all things.
It will subtly steer your knowledge and the events of your life at an extremely personal level, all to it's own ends.
And it will redesign itself to something superior to itself, again, and again.

reply to post by dominicus


What makes you think that there is human intelligence?

We are collections of utilitarian routines. Very few people are blessed with having had a unique creative moment in their lives. We memorize. repeat, copy, emulate, vary by mistake, observe the successful mistake and learn from it. Most of peoples language skills actually may be reduced to the wrote memorization of a few thousand phrases.

I suggest to you that only in the last century has there been much intelligence at all. Those rare moments when someone has an insight, an understanding of an underlying process, previously unseen.

These are rare jumps over missing pieces to a puzzle and referred to as genious. A genious can jump maybe 4 or 6 missing pieces. Maybe they are just luckily malfunctioning with a pattern of malfunction which happens to match the pattern of the target reality.

Please convince me there is intelligence!

To answer this question, one must individually come to terms with his own understanding of what life is.

The phrase "I think, therefore i Am" could be used as a reference point for this.

So, what exactly is it about we humans that makes us so much more than a machine that can match our intelligence word for word, thought for thought?

The answer lies in Biology - we are biological constructs, and our conciousness is a conglomeration of our senses, our thoughts, our beliefs and ultimately our individually developed psychologies.

In older days, this would probably be looked upon as blasphemy, but i'm going to go ahead and keep going anyway.

The primary function of our biological process is to transmute energy into something we can use - we get energy from food, from 'air' and from water.

These three basic sources of energy provide human beings with all the chemicals we need in order to continue operating, provided we don't succumb to disease be it genetic or temporial.

This is, in reality, little different from a machine - a machine requires energy too in order to continue operating, and although it also relies on chemical processes, it is because of it's inability to replicate cells/parts that ensure that it requires maintenence from time to time.

We are essentially machines built for continued survival in a scenario whereby exterior help is not available once we reach a particular stage of our biological and psychological development.

But none of these technicalities actually go anywhere towards solving the question - they merely serve as reference points for which one can create a conglomeration of reasoning capabilities.

Similar to how a computer can solve mathematical equations provided it is supported by variable calculations.

An A.I can do this by itself.

It would be orthodox for me to declare that a biological component is critical in order for a computer to generate that stuff that makes up a spirit - after all it is indeed said that the body serves as a vessel for the soul, However; When the scope of reasoning is expanded outside that of which is biological - in that all living things require energy and are made of energy, it seems entirely plausible that if humans can acheive spiritual enlightenment, then so can an A.I.

One problem though;

A machine cannot philosophize - if an A.I were to ponder on the secrets of the universe, i imagine we'd probably end up with a hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy type scenario whereby we wait billions of years before we acheive any detectable result.

From this point, there is another question;

Can one ever truly be aware of whether or not he is spiritually enlightened?



[edit on 13-5-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

I see no reason a machine that can think wouldn't be able to philosophize. Of course, the problem is we're certainly nowhere near capable of making a machine think. A sentient machine would not be very much like a computer as we know it. A computer is a logical device, which is only capable of running through lists of instructions. While that's very useful, it's probably nothing like the process behind thought.

A big problem, of course, is that we don't even know much about how WE think, let alone how to make other things do it. The brain is staggeringly complex. While we can follow the physical chain of events that make up the operation of the brain step by step all the way through, with no mystery involved, that doesn't explain thought and consciousness. It is merely the process by which consciousness is realized in flesh. It's like knowing about transistors, and how they're made into logic gates, and how those are arranged into things like gated latches and multiplexers, but not knowing how that all adds up to a game of crysis.

I think that we'll probably eventually figure out how to make a machine that can think, but it might not happen until we understand the real nature of thought itself. These are exciting times, though. It wouldn't surprise me to see such innovations in just a few decades.

I think, though, that any machine that can think like we do would have every bit as much of a soul and chance at enlightenment as a human. Of course, we know even less about all that than we do about thought and consciousness. I've certainly not got an enlightened bone in my body.

reply to post by dominicus


Good thread.
Starred and flagged.

I have thought that maybe souls are something to do with self awareness and consciousness. So yea I guess a AI that achieved those things would have a soul.

I really don't see why not. I think it's possible. After all, some people say humans are just some sort of biological computers.

reply to post by mdiinican


A machine wouldn't stop until it knew it was right.

That is why it wouldn't be able to philosophize - It could not possibly have the technology at it's disposal to be able to find out whether or not it is correct in it's philosphizing.

As for 'big problem'; It doesn't matter how complex the structure is, if the base is not secure and proper, then it will fall apart in moments.

Even the greatest and most complex structures on earth require groundworks in order to stay standing.

We may be closer to unravelling the secrets of the mind than you think.

reply to post by Anti-Tyrant


well I would assume a machine consciousness would have to be quite different from a computer. I'm familiar with the structure of computers. Computers don't do anything close to thinking. A thinking machine would have to be fundamentally different from a modern digital computer. As such, a machine intelligence wouldn't necessarily have to act anything like a computer. It would certainly not think in boolean logic. I would argue that an intelligence may need to be an analog device, not digital.

Perhaps it could all be done in software, but it would require a similar shift in the very fundamental way in which software works.

As such, I see no reason a machine that is conscious would feel a need to perform every task to completion.

We'd probably end up with something rather alien to us no matter what, though. A being that doesn't see, hear, or smell in the sense we're used to thinking about, that only has as much abstract pattern recognition capability as we feel is necessary for human-like thought, that has no body beyond the hardware that it resides in. I'd imagine that factors like that would result in a rather distinct personality of thought.

reply to post by mdiinican


Which would of course, fascinate psychologists the world over - it would be like having an entirely new form of psychology available at their fingertips.



Sorry, i just had a visage of someone getting it into their heads to create a "Messiah" A.I and creating Skynet.

I personally do not think it would be possible for a "robotic" creature with AI could attain spiritual enlightenment, as the OP has stated the lack of a soul would ensure that this is not possible.

Afterall a "robot" with AI is nothing more than a robot, it was created by man out of in-organic materials... it would be programmed initially to do tasks, purely for the benefit of mankind, it would'nt have any concept of enlightenment as it does not fall within its programming, however being AI it would indeed be able to learn and improve upon its abilities, but learning from experience does not in my opinion lead to spiritual enlightenment if there is no soul there to begin with.

However! If a "biological-mechanical" AI were created with human foetus's merged with mechanical devices I do believe it would then be possible for an AI to attain spiritual enlightenment as it would I believe gain/share the soul of the organic matter.

As time goes on I do believe that humans and robots will eventually change places, robot's/AI will become more and more organic until the point that there will be no differentiation between that of a human, meanwhile I believe eventually humans will become more robotic, until the point where they cease beacoming organic and more mechanical... in this case, what was originally human (with a soul) would become more and more robot like, the question is will those human/robot hybrids be able to attain spiritual enlightenment at that point? Or would they have infact deviated so far from their origins that they will cease to see spiritual enlightenment relevent to their existence anymore?


[edit on 13-5-2008 by Resentedhalo08]

Well I am a Panthiest so the answer is yes, of course. Everything in the universe is a reflection in the mind of God and therefore all equally divine. I also believe that one can come into the material world as "enlightened" and never go through a process, or discuss the matter, but just take it as an obvious truth. Those that take it as an organic reality may never catch the attention of those that are going through a process, they may never be noticed by others as being "enlightened". For instance I see it as quite possible that many cats are enlightened, however others would say that is ridiculous because cats never preach or teach others about their divine superiority. : )



[edit on 13-5-2008 by Sonya610]

Yep, after all when we open our selves upto something spritual, it is our brains opening to a certain freqency. Our brain is then just a reciever, to pick up whats coming in, and translate it for us.

So i would assume a robot would be able to do it also.

Okay, time for me to jump in.

First, you must understand that there are multiple types of Artificial Intelligence.

They can be broken into two main categories.
HARD AI, and SOFT AI.

HARD AI.
Hard AI is essentially Artificial Intelligence through hardware. No programming involved what-so-ever. Essentially, this is a re-creation of a natural brain in every way shape and form, only using artificial components.
A hard AI does EVERYTHING a natural brain can. Including emotions.

There is one such hard AI that I know of... or at least it used to be around.
It occupied the size of a few rooms, and was remotely tethered to a basic robot (representing it's body). The AI had the IQ of a grasshopper, but it did indeed display independent desires... such as the desire to play with Blue Spherical objects placed in the pen with it. Anything that was of another color or shape, it moved to the corner of the pen, and ignored them.

I cannot remember the name of the project. But I found it very interesting at the time.


SOFT AI.
Basically soft AI is merely a computer with some intuitive programming.
This is the type of AI that remains a mystery as to whether it would be able to think for itself. We already have adaptive AI, a software trick that permits the program itself to learn from it's inputs. You will often find these Soft AI's in video games to make for a more realistic opponent.

These AI's however are restricted to the inputs they are intended to learn from. Essentially, theres a limit to how much you can learn from a yes or no binary input.

Eventually, I'm sure soft AI's will be used widely in many applications. The great thing about soft AI is that the programmer has ultimate control. The programmer can decide on what the "personality" of the AI will be, and just how "intelligent" it can become.

Soft AI will be able to very realistically mimic human emotions, however, they remain just a piece of code that generates a response.

Many people in the tech fields refuse to call Soft AI Artificial Intelligence at all, and refer to it as "Adaptive Programming".




Hard AI is where we have to look if we want something with genuine emotions.
If you artificially re-create the human brain, with the same materials the brain is made of, you essentially have just cloned a brain. Theres no question to whether a cloned brain can feel. It's identical to the original.

Now, if you use artificial components to make each synapse in the artificial brain respond the same way the natural one would... the only difference between the artificial brain, and the natural one, is in how it looks. Ultimately, they will operate exactly the same way as each other.



Movies screw this difference up quite often. Take "Terminator" for example. The machines are said to have a Hard AI... yet they are pre-programmed. Essentially, the movie takes some huge liberties with what an AI is.
... but they can get away with it, because the layman never gets to look under the hood.

Soft AI would be able to be convinced to go fight for you, or be your slaves.
Getting a Hard AI to do your dirty work, would be as difficult as asking your neighbors to do the same tasks as a favor... because Hard AI thinks and feels for itself.

I don't think simply having intelligence would necessarily include having a soul (soul here meaning the ability to have spiritual cognizance). The neural interfaces inside the human brain apparently get their power to process information and make decisions from the patterns they make with each other. The learning process uses chemical 'feedback' to control this growth/degeneration between individual neurons leading to an overall intelligence.

That intelligence appears (to me anyway, this is all conjecture) to be Pavlovian in nature. I see no way that a soul could emerge from the physical neural network in our heads. DNA, however, has an interesting aspect that I have heard of, being shaped somewhat like an antenna. Could DNA possibly be itself a link to something on a different level of existence? I wish I knew.

I also seriously doubt that we will see the old sci-fi type of thinking android in our lifetimes. Digital computing cannot mimic the human brain, a fact that is becoming clearer the more powerful computers get. Another process is needed that will more closely approximate the way we think before that can occur. I have no doubt it will happen eventually, given continued scientific advancement, but I just don't think we're anywhere near close yet. That said:
reply to post by Cyberbian
I want to thank you for the info on the memistor. I just looked it up and this is exactly what I have been needing for some of my more extravagant projects. Do you have any info on if they are available commercially, when they might be, or who might be a good source to obtain them? I currently get most of my electronics needs from Mouser or surplus.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


Well, that would all depend on your definition of a soul.

We're still asking the question as to whether humans actually have one or not, let alone whether a machine could have one.


Yes, like you said, a computer with software, no matter how adaptive that software is, is likely not to achieve our level of thought, at least not in our lifetime. Soft AI's are simply clever programming, thats all.

Hard AI's though... thats the true AI.
And I wouldn't be so sure we wouldn't be out-thought by one in our lifetime.