God can't possibly be "moral"

Can God be "good"?
If God is all-good, benevolent, then it implies on of two things:

Everything God does is automatically good and perfect, no matter what it does
or
God only acts in a morally perfect way
With the former, God could not be immoral even if it tried. Whatever it done would work the maximum amount of good because god's actions would be the definition of perfectly good. God has no choice in this matter - it is perfect, and there's nothing it can do about it! The second option sees god, as a perfectly-loving being, utterly incapable of doing anything that is bad or wrong, even though it would otherwise be possible for it do to them.

In both cases, unfortunately, it appears that God does not have a choice in its own morality. A good God can literally not choose to do the wrong thing. It is impossible. This makes God amoral, and not morally good, in the same way that any automaton with no moral free will is neither "moral" or "immoral", but amoral, as a computer is neither moral or immoral even if we program it to always do the right thing. Because there is no free will, there is no way to assert that God is moral.

That the idea of a perfectly good god contradicts itself means that it is impossible for a good god to exist. An amoral or immoral one could exist though. The evidence on this page on suffering, pain and the unsuitability of the universe for peaceful life is rather a big hint, however, that God is not amoral, but is actually immoral and sadistically evil. Of course it is completely more obviously the case that there isn't a god of any kind, but if there was one, it wouldn't make sense to call it "moral", it'd have to amoral at best.

Everything God does is automatically good and perfect

Yup, its a learning experience if you find yourself thinking otherwise, and in the end, you realize you are the microcosm of the macrocosm, you are God, so learn how to act and think like it.

WWJD? (same thing as Krishna!)

"Im not religious, I just use religions to explain myself"
-me

can you taste the fractals? (you should, you are what you eat!) (also, your ancestors are your descendants...hint hint...)

God defines morality. He defines what is good and evil. He transcends your standards of judgment. God lives outside of space time. You are incapable of seeing the whole of reality. Can you imagine hearing the thoughts of every human being in existence at once?

Also God gave us free will and we brought sin into the world. As a consequence the God of this world right now is Satan. Not until the return of Christ will things be restored to justice. Believe me, as sinner myself I am glad for grace and do not seek Gods justice.

Trying to judge God by human standards is always a mistake. Read the Book of Job sometime.

reply to post by psychedeliack




Please explain more, im not understand you a 100%

then how can god JUDGE IS, by HIS standards ?

please explain that!!

reply to post by Vimes

then how can god JUDGE IS, by HIS standards ?

What other standards could he possibly use but HIS- being he is the creator of all things? His justice is perfect so he demands absolute moral perfection. That's what the Jewish law was set up to demonstrate. That we are in capable of his standard. This should serve to teach us humility.

But in his equally perfect mercy and love he knows we are doomed to fail his standard of justice so he provided us an "out". Yeshua being the only one who lived up to the standard of the law, then offered him self to the Fathers judgment in our place. Christ's sacrifice on the cross serves to satisfy his justice for us. By accepting our sin, believing in him, and his resurrection we are justified.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Erm...holy crap dude....if GOD appeared to ME, and told ME what to do, and TOLD ME how to love and he came to ME and talked to ME all the time and gave ME devine powers i would ALSO be like "jesus"

what the hell dude, the rest of us are supposed to live like a being that got DIRECT duidance and ASSURANCE from his god and "FATHER"

erm...anyway

reply to post by Vimes


No you are missing the point entirely. We are not capable of righteousness. In response to that reality we are called to admit our sin nature and accept Gods offer of grace by believing in the one he sent.

By honestly accepting our weakness and humbling ourselves to God we are in so doing justified. Good works are not necessary but come as a result. Out of gratitude we seek to obey and serve God but even then we still sin. I struggle with sin as a Christian, the point is that we acknowledge it and do not claim personal righteousness. I only deserve Gods favor through Christs substitution on my behalf.

Erm...holy crap dude....if GOD appeared to ME, and told ME what to do, and TOLD ME how to love and he came to ME and talked to ME all the time and gave ME devine powers i would ALSO be like "jesus"

Actually you wouldn't. In the Bible the Jews had direct contact with God through huge miracles like the parting the Red Sea and being fed manna from heaven. Yet after Moses went away to the mountain for just a few weeks they were worshiping a golden calf.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Bigwhammy, you're way better than I am at explaining this stuff.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Allright, i accpet, and i understand your point fo view entirely, i do not judge what you believe, and will never attack you diretly on your belief an faint..

But in my pont of view, god is a little kid with an ant farm, a magnifyin glass, and enjoys our suffering...

but i do not believe in the christian god...the god of the bible anyway, i am just using examples...

reply to post by Vimes

But in my pont of view, god is a little kid with an ant farm, a magnifyin glass, and enjoys our suffering...

But can't you see the futile nature of the created judging it's creator? It's like when a small child refuses to eat their vegetables or go to bed on time.

Yes their is pain and suffering in this life. But it is the result of mans disobedience not Gods cruelty. Consider it a test. Yet we are promised something infinitely better based on the choices we make with this life.

i think it depends on what you quantize "god" as.

as a "prime creator" that made "all that is" come into existence by choice ?

or

a specifically designated "personality or personalities" that created life in this area of the universe?

i think a "prime creator" would let "all happen" .. meaning .. all possibilities.. including bad ones.. "bad" meaning not in the interest of "your ego".

that IS.. if he designated this universe with "free will"

if "those that oppose you" .. ie: "evil" or "bad ones" .. COULDN'T do anything against you.. there would be no evil... and consequently.. or more accurately.. causatively.. no "free will"

now what if YOU realized that you are "conciousness".. and conciousness is within ALL because ALL stemmed from this hypothetical "prime creator"...

and if the conditions arose.. through ingenuity, or conscious will..

YOU could manifest higher and higher levels of phenomena closer to that of what is referred to as "godly" .. meaning.. uh.. "that which is evolved higher than the current idea of "what is human"

.... "christened" .. as it were..

would OTHERS.. not consider you "godly"? as embarrassing as it may be, since all conciousness contains the potential within.. to rise to that level.



i think the worship of a "higher personality" is only useful for a certain period of a civilization's history, as it needs an "explanation" for everything.. in order to group people and direct them, punish them for not obeying certain "rules" the imaginary "overlord" has "said"... (abeit decimating "free will" )

though, even as perverted, censored, and blatantly edited, the Bible is in it's current format.. yes EVEN the King James version...
even its so strewn with the territorial p!ssings of certain monarchs and social engineers, i personally, find much , rich , deep meaning in many of the writings.
this .. addressed on a personal level.. to how you live your life.. and the very simple idea of .. will through alignment.. with either harmony with others through love and life... or complete discord, scientific skepticism till it kills all hope for something more... and the resultant death of spiritual imagination and emotional hope for the race.

as the movie "zeitgeist" points out... (though many many researchers pointed out previously...many of the ancient religions stem from the worship of "light" .. and characters that had been "christened by he light" .. and taught how to evolve spiritually...

i don't think the "big bang" (or what i like to think of as the "big bounce" .. the cyclic explosive expansion and slowly retracting and collapsing phenomenon that loops and loops forever.. the "breathing bang" in a perfect sine wave each time growing larger by 1.618+% ..) has any "morality"

i think it's us.. as an integral PART of that "breathing bang" or "prime creation" .. to realize that we ARE a PART of that.. and in this locale.. we are (publicly knowingly) the highest form of intelligence here right now... so let's realize this... and BE that.

BE "god" .. as in.. christened conciousness. and see how beautiful we can be with it...

lets not blame "god" for the state of the world.. let's point the finger at ourselves.. and be less selfish, and more giving..


unless you're one greedy mofo and don't care one bit about the state of the world.
in that case.. go ahead.. blame your "god" all you want. and beg "Him" to do you the favor of giving you a Grammy or Oscar or world peace.

wasted time and energy if you ask me...not gonna get any better without personal responsibility and action.


never mind the "prime creator" "big breather" ....
it's irrelevant ..
we have bigger problems before that's very important.


god is within.

get it?


-

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
-Epicurus

reply to post by Snap


Call Him God because He is.
He gave us a choice and we chose evil over good with the help of the devil.
Your quote has been debunked before, try a little better next time.

-Jimmy

Morality does not apply to God, or to the animals or anything other than man. Morality is a standard mankind sets up so that we can all get along. Morality only applies to mankind.

Let me give you an example that I've given on this site before.

Lets say I spend a day building a fishing dock. I use my trusty hammer to pound in the anchors and then build the tresses and to finally nail in the footing. After a day of hard work I go inside and sleep. The next morning I walk out to do some fishing but my neighbor is already on my dock fishing. It ticks me off so I pick up the hammer and kill him with it.

Is the hammer now immoral? One day the hammer built a dock and the next day it killed a man. Is the hammer immoral?

No, it isn't.

The hammer was something that could be worked with to make the world a better place or to destroy lives.

Morality does not apply to hammers or animals or even God. Morality applies to mankind and what we do with the knowledge and tools we are given in this world. We can use them for good or evil purposes.

We can even use God to those ends.

wupy

[edit on 10-5-2008 by mrwupy]

God is not good or evil
He is all that means he is the altha and omega.
To say that he is good would also be on what your interpretation off good is
some peoples good is different to your good or my good.
Some may believe killing a child to save 3 children is a good choice while others find it evil.

So if good and evil are a point off view and god is all negative and positive logic dictates that it is in fact all.

The simple truth is that if God is all-powerful, it purposely created suffering and is therefore evil. This type of God is a patriarchal control mechanism and nothing more.

If you have a more deistic perspective, that God just set the universe in motion, or granted us free will and thus relinquished control, then the moral status of God is irrelevant.

Personally, I believe that we, the Universe, are God. We exist in the illusion of separation due to our egos and our singular consciousnesses. But if you accept the total unity of all being, you realize that we are actually the physical and psychic manifestation of omnipresent power, commonly described as God!

[edit on 11-5-2008 by bled_eidol]

God is a contradiction in terms to me. He is supposedly the perfect being, and hence we needed Jesus Christ to communicate with him, because we can't communicate with God directly because we are imperfect. How/why can a perfect being not communicate with an imperfect one? If I'm perfect, doesn't that mean I'm so perfect at communicating I can communicate with anyone, good or bad? If I'm perfect, I can't be corrupted by talking to an imperfect person, because I'm already perfect?

If we have to communicate through Jesus Christ, does that mean Jesus Christ isn't perfect, which is why we could talk to him? The son of the perfect being isn't perfect himself?

Also, if God is perfect, and made us in his image, then why are we imperfect? We're supposed to be like him right? Why would a perfect being make an imperfect being?

I also love how we are told we have to choose God. God wants us to love him of our own free will. Well, it's not really free will if we're also told if we don't love God and praise him, we'll burn in eternal damnation is it? It's like holding a knife to someone's throat and saying "Tell me you love me or I'll kill you!" What do you think that person's gonna say!

If their is a God, then he has some severe issues with how he relates to people, if he had a therapy session, he'd be diagnosed as being schizophrenic in about 2 minutes.

Originally posted by mrwupy
Morality does not apply to God, or to the animals or anything other than man. Morality is a standard mankind sets up so that we can all get along. Morality only applies to mankind.

Could the 10 commandments, sent down to Moses by God himself, not be regarded as a moral code man was supposed to live by?