The ATS Issues Thread

UPDATE

A Definitive ATS Issues Post has been added to this thread, and will be updated with important issues brought up by members.






Original post below...





A recent thread has been derailed because of a number of members who would like to discuss issues related to ATS, rather than the main focus of the original thread author. We've created this "Issue Thread" to address the desire to air these issues, and avoid derailing the otherwise interesting topics of productive discussions.

The need for this thread begins roughly here

Originally posted by yankeerose
Here comes the hammer.

Talk about what ATS management wants you to talk about, or the thread will be closed. Any future threads will be dealt with immediately. Say whatever you want, but don't question managements right to sway, lead or shut down topics they find irritating. Who cares about free speech? This topic has seven pages in three days, so obviously it is a popular thread... but it will be shut down. Why... because they don't like being shown as the bad guys.

Such is life. ATS is just doing the same thing our government is doing to us, and anyone can be sacrificed for telling the Emperor he has no clothes. Just keep looking in the magic mirror and pretend it will all go way as long as everybody agrees with their version of what happened. How can we ever say we "Deny Ignorance" here, or are searching for the truth... when this very thread is THE proof of manipulation, ignorance, and censorship.

Just do what you are told. Don't ask questions. Don't look them in the eye. Keep your head down and stay in line... or else you will be banned. Talk about a Power Trip! Talk about forcing your point of view down everybody throats!

Reminds me of the kids who had the big yard and all the neat toys... you could play there as long as they always won or were the leader.... lol And everybody knew those kids could never win without having the rules slanted in their favor, or that they sure as heck were not natural leaders... they were only appointed to the position because of their parents... who kept the real truth from them.

Denial... it's more than just a river in Egypt.

DISCLAIMER: We're not singling out this member, only picking a logical place to spin-off to a new thread.

[edit on 23-5-2008 by SkepticOverlord]

Good idea... i gotta say i do agree with the member. Hope he didn't get banned.

It was a pretty good video and its always nice to hear things from the accounts of JL....always entertaining.

As for the whole ATS/JL thing, damn this seems to have taken up most of the discussion here...including my post. All I can say is that I agree, there is TOO MUCH slander and bashing of people on this site. Someone posts something they believe or want to discuss and then you have certain people automatically coming out and "NO", "FAKE" "HOAX" "PROOF" "IF YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU"RE AN IDIOT". I thought this forum was all about debate and coming together to find a common truth. No one even gets the benefit of the doubt anymore. As for "proof" well, yeah thats important but thats a two way street my friends! Just as you require proof of the topic being legitimate you should also be required to bring forth proof of your own to debunk and not just sitting there with your know it all / holier than thou attitude flaming something/someone you may not agree with. This forum from what I understand was made to bring people with a common interests together to debate and share experiences was it not?

The ATS/JL issue seems (and im not pointing fingers because everyone on both sides of the argument has a little bit of the blame to share) to be a case of misunderstanding and hurt feelings. If the bashing would stop im sure ATS would see a lot less of this sort of thing happening.

LESS BASHING...MORE CIVILIZED DEBATE!!

"Cant we all just get along?" - Rodney King - circa 1991

***moved from original thread***

reply to post by yankeerose





"Say whatever you want, but don't question managements right to sway, lead or shut down topics they find irritating. Who cares about free speech? This topic has seven pages in three days, so obviously it is a popular thread... but it will be shut down. Why... because they don't like being shown as the bad guys."



I believe the point of the owners could also be looked as "This thread is now off topic" other threads that have become off topic from the original post have been closed or members asked to return to the OP topic or start a new thread. Isn't that part of the rules here? I don't remember this thread originally being about the ATS/JL problem. In fact I'm pretty sure it was about the video and his ufo/cover up stuff not the 2% of the ATS/JL issue (5 minutes at the beginning of a 4 HOUR video)

[edit on 6-5-2008 by QBSneak000]

****moved from OT****

Originally posted by hikix
Hope he didn't get banned.

Why do you think we would ban him for that?

reply to post by VisionQuest





"Using humor to deflect this topic away from nuggets of truth. Funny joke...but....bad timing."



Sometimes humor is the best thing to try and ease peoples tensions. THeres nothing wrong about that. And how does it deflect away from "nuggets" of truth?
who's truth? yours? mine? the owners? all of our opinions are valued...or at least thats what I would like to believe. We don't have to agree with one anothers opinions or ideas but we sure as heck should at least respect each others differences.




"But in the end, the only thing any regular forum member can do is simply leave and join another site if they don't like it here. Most of The Mods will do what is their best interests, as opposed to the whole. Just like most governments. Its just the way it is."



I'm a regular member and I have definitely shared my opinions and beliefs contrary to the popular consensus of the topic at hand and I have never had any problems with that or have been swayed to be quiet. Its only when we go against the rules of the forum that I see things being done or said by the moderators or owners. But I suppose I can only speak for myself that I have had free rein of my right to free speech. It is in the Mod's and owners and all OUR best interests that the rules of ATS are followed is it not?


****moved from OT****

reply to post by hikix


Agree? Why?

I know I said alot of what I'm about to say over on the "Lear 4 hr. rant" thread. Mostly in responce to the Yankeerose post, oddly enough.

All of you who seemingly agree in whole or in part to that very sentiment all imply or outright accuse the ATS management of censorship, or collusion with the bogeyman of the day, or "steering" conversations where ever it is they want them to go.

What a whole lot of nonsence... I've seen fire and brimstone threads go for days with nary a moderator in sight, much less the high priests of ATS, the three amigos.

I would dearly love to see something resembling proof of these accusations. Even if true, which I strongly doubt (as you may have guessed), you aren't chained here. You can leave at any time...truthfully, I hope you don't, every opinion, no matter how baseless, has value.

Being a conspirecy site, this may sound a little odd, but not everything is a conspirecy...really.

I think that some people need to distinguish between censorship and sensible board management.

The T&C are pretty clear about what's acceptable and what isn't.

Personally I enjoy the clarity - I know what I can and can't do.

The rules are there to encourage debate, not to stifle it - I've seen a few good threads die because the best contributors left the debate after others started flaming, and surely this defeats the object of the exercise.

I like to read, and I like to learn - and I like to do this in an environment where civility and decorum are valued.

I've been guilty of breaking the T&C, as I imagine most members have at one point or another - but the only person who suffered was me, and I lost learning opportunities because I couldn't keep my gob shut.

Others may view it differently, and that's their choice - I'm stating my own case, not anyone else's

What I can see is this...

There are indeed topics that cannot be discussed on ATS. Yes these topics will be shut down. Things like Pornography and illegal drug use do not really belong on this site. Use of profanity is also verboten.

Why?

Because those topics only lead to this board being censored by programs like Net Nanny. The administration wants this board to be available to the widest audience possible. So these topics get removed for that purpose.

Threads also may close down for various other reasons.

The topic is already being discussed elsewhere...

The topic has been derailed and no longer qualifies under the topic header and the original post primer...

The topic is fraudulent or infringes on copyright or other protected media...

With the wide range of topics available on this board and the way that subjects may be approached this board does a mighty fine job in keeping a well maintained board and a place for very interesting discussions to be held.

I have found many subjects can be approached using tact and intelligent discourse that falls well within the terms and conditions of this site. Yes this is a privately owned site and as such they have a few rules. Rules that you as a member agreed to when you signed up for this site.

If you no longer agree with the rules there is nothing and I mean NOTHING that stops you from not posting.

If you do not agree with what is said on this site and what is discussed on this site or how this site is run then by all means make up your own site and you may run that site as you see fit. Just as the administration of this site runs this site as they see fit.

The free and intelligent discussion of topics as highly speculative as the topics here on ATS will always be available for people to talk about. There is nothing standing in your way from discussing issues affecting you. There is however a correct way do discuss these things.

A person does not go into a public place and start raving at the top of their lungs filled with expletives and expect a warm reaction. Also if one is going to propose an outlandish claim one should at least have the decency to show the board some respect and offer some smidgen of proof to the claim.

Ignorance is thinking that because a privately owned site lets it's membership post things on the Internet that it is free licence to post anything a person wishes to. It's just not that way. Its not that way in society and it's not that way on this site.

If you behave in a rational and intelligent way on this board with the subject matter that you post your posts will be received by an intelligent audience and a discussion in a rational and adult manner can assume. However if one chooses to resort to childish name calling and political baiting or other less civilized means to extort a reaction the offending person may find that these actions are not welcome in this forum.

The management of this site has sought not to shut down the topic that this thread has spun off of but it has been made a subject here. This is for two reasons.

The original subject had been derailed due to a small part of the primer subject matter...

And the subject matter that was being discussed could be discussed in a rational and reasonable way. This thread itself is proof that subjects that even may show the administration and site owners in a less than favorable light can be discussed in an adult way with reason and accountability for ones own actions.

You don't have to attack a member for their views. However you may attack the view itself. Perhaps the view is wrong. Perhaps you have information that the person that posted the view in question does not have and as such your contribution to the thread is warranted justified and appreciated.

Whoops, I thought this was the Miley Cyrus thread.........sorry!

Peace

[edit on 6-5-2008 by Dr Love]

Good one Dr. Love, way to slaughter a thread there... man that was cleaner than a surgical strike.

Emergency Thread CPR Commencing!

Furthermore, I would like to add that threads may get moved if the staff here deem that the thread warrants a move such as this. I have had threads myself moved because they do not exactly fit within the parameters of a particular section of the board. This does not kill the thread at all but it puts it where it can be discussed appropriately.

In the case of a banning by the staff of the board this is not necessarily a permanent issue. One might be banned for an accidental violation of the terms and conditions of this site. However if the member has just reason and or understands the reason behind the banning they may ask for the reinstatement of their account privileges. A banning does not occur without the thorough and complete review by the staff. This is not an issue they take lightly.

However a banning may be permanent if the member has shown malice of forethought and the intentional and willful disregard of the very terms and conditions of the site as plainly spelled out by site management.

At issue here unfortunately is the apparent and in my opinion incorrect vision of an us versus them mentality that some members have taken. The truth is that the staff here generally consider themselves as much a part of the membership as members do.

Honest mistake! Didn't mean to trivialize anybody's issues.

Peace

reply to post by whatukno


Amen, wuky.

I'm not sure where this us -vs- them mentality comes from. The mods herein are, for the most part, impecible in their restraint. If anything, they are less active then they should be at times. Err on the side of restraint, I suppose. Certainly, the rest of the heirarchy of ATS are conspicuous by their absence in many cases, though I'm sure they are around in the background...backstage if you will.

Interesting ... when you actually provide a voice for dissenters (and I mean that as "dissenting from the topic at hand" NOT "dissenting from the status quo or anything to do with ATS management, etc") .... the majority of them do not show up in the thread.

Almost as if they are only interested in voicing their opinions if the largest possible audience can see their posts.

The web board biz is a funny game ... I've moderated some *MUCH* lesser sports and band-related boards - and let me tell you it is not always fun.

I think the staff here does a great job here walking the line (especially since some of our topics are nothing but pure conjecture to begin with). Even in the instances where people are given a bit more leeway with their ideas, then the repliers are given a bit more leeway with the level of attitude in their responses (as most of the John Lear threads can attest to if you look at it from a truly objective eye).

Could this site be ran by CIA agents? Sure. Could I be living in the Matrix and this experience of me typing these words simply be the effect from having a bit too much blood sucked out of my brain this morning? Sure.

Anything's possible. People need to learn to see what's probable and take things from there. Good advice for most of Lear's info as well.


[edit on 5/6/2008 by Fiverz]

Ok, I have an issue and not sure if this is the right place to post but it says issue thread, so sounds good to me...

The issue: I dont understand why threads like these remain open:

A Time Travelor. Greetings

Hello. Ask Questions. Receive Answers here.

They always seem to be posted on the day a new member joins ATS, they never offer any valid / indepth answers and the whole thread just becomes a joke. Which in turn makes us look stupid.

I decided not to post in either of the threads that I listed but others did and always will do if these threads remain open.

Doesnt anyone else see that this reflects badly on our membership, staff and ATS as a company, which also could stop new people from joining us or at very least stop them from posting on ATS.

With us moving forward into MSM it would be nice to try and drop the "crazy" label / tag that we have to carry but keeping this type of thread open doesnt help.

Maybe we could have a rule, that you cant post this type of thread until after one month of joining ATS. These people never seem to be around that long anyway.

Also do we have to have these threads moved to BTS, sometimes it feels like BTS is just an after thought, a place to put reject threads from ATS. BTS is a great place in its own right, we dont want stuff like this.

End of issue / semi rant.

Thanks for listening,

JQ.

I think ATS do wonderful job,..the only thing i miss is sleeper,i know this chat have over and over.... my skeptic mind tells me sleeper was just playing around....but my gut feeling is tha this guy was one of the real deal stuff even if some of his ideas were way above.

I just hope someday ats make him come back..that wold be fun.

reply to post by John Q


I completely understand your issues with these kinds of threads. In fact there is something you can do about it as a member. The Allert button on the bottom of the post can be used to let a moderator know about the problematic post.

The staff here has a huge job to do it's kinda hard for them to read every single post. They do a great job but this site has gotten to the point that membership can outrun them from time to time.

However saying that I would also like to add that these kinds of threads generally give me a great laugh and I do enjoy reading the time traveler we are the government threads. What makes them so amusing in my opinion is the membership does a great job at pointing out the fraudulent nature of the origional poster. In quick order I might add.

I can see your point as it does tend to reflect badly on the board for reasons that it 1. has no basis in reality and 2. The origional poster often times does not return to back up their claim. The second reason is exactly why the thread stays open. The origional poster may in fact return to provide some smidgen of proof that their claim is valid and as a board it is an obligation to let the person reporting such outlandish claims an opertunity to bring forth proof of their claim.

I've been taking a break from ATS in the last few weeks - indeed I had originally thought I would be leaving entirely, though in reality I missed you all to much, so I guess I'm back!

I was doing well at staying away until I saw the Camelot John Lear video - and wondered what you guys would think about it.

Brief bit of background - I originally joined up on ATS because of John Lear, who I saw interviewed on Camelot a couple of years ago. Gradually, through reading on these boards, I became cynical and sceptical about both his and others' conspiracy theories.

When the whole drama - as Springer describes it - of JL's departure happened it was to some extent the final straw for me, because it seemed like egos had overridden the purpose of the site. I'd had enough, hence my wish to have a break. So I sympathise with Springer/SO and others' unhappiness with the perpetuation of the topic as a perpetuation of the drama.

I feel very let down by John Lear, myself - the opening part of his interview with Camelot was just absurd, and so obviously absurd that it revealed completely the character he is. Part of the process of analyzing conspiracies must be to come to conclusions for yourself according to the evidence. Well, I've seen the evidence as far as Lear is concerned, and in all sorts of ways it seems to me that the case is closed.

Unfortunately, having led me into this world of conspiracies, Lear is responsible for my losing faith in it as a cause and as a field of any academic merit. I feel a bit like John, Paul, George and Ringo must have when they found out the Maharishi was a phoney all those years ago.

I haven't been able to stop visiting ATS but I must say that for a few weeks now I've found it hard to find anything I want to contribute to. I put this down to the fact that the Lear episode has shaken my interest in the field to a significant extent. I still think this is the best site in the world, though. I got told off previously for writing an "I'm leaving" thread - but this isn't one. I will keep lurking, and I hope that something or someone comes along to reignite the fires. I'm sure they will. When they do - I hope they don't end up turning out to be quite such a disappointing flash in the pan as Lear has demonstrated himself to be.

Yours,

The Lone Weasel

First, I would like to thank ATS Mgmt for not banning me. I was fully prepared for that possibility.

Secondly, thank you to everyone here who supported my post, and to those who sent or forwarded me so many kind e-mails of support. I had no idea the thread was being read by so many who had never been to ATS before.

Sorry I did not post yesterday, but my temper was maxed out. And one should NEVER post when angry.

If one looks at the first page of the JL thread, I did make one of the first posts commenting on the entire interview, and the parts I found interesting. The thread disintegrated into one big JL bashing party. Those that would not even bother to watch the interview seemed to reign supreme with their preconceived notions of JL and his theories, which to me was total ignorance and brown nosing of Olympic sized proportions.

All everyone seemed to focusing on was the CIA/disinfo part of the interview. Now think about it, wouldn't it make perfect sense that they would be on ATS? Where would you go to find out what is being leaked or discussed about black programs? ATS, Project Camelot, The Living Moon are all excellent sites to go to to find out what people are talking about concerning black ops. Would ATS be a site that would be mined by them for the information it contains?? Absolutely! Is management willingly involved... I would doubt it, but then I used to believe that 9-11 happened because of a group of rag-tag terrorists too. Nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to a select few using the masses to sway public opinion.

I personally do not believe that ATS is knowingly a CIA/disinfo site.

Now as to the whole JL fiasco...

What started as a simple thread by JL to point out personal attacks by another CM regarding the Billy Miers issue, quickly snowballed into an avalanche of digital egoitis.

Why were S.O. and the mods assigned to the case unable to find the remarks quoted by John Lear? They were not that hard to find, they were right where they were supposed to be.

Why did S.O. email JL that Ritz had admitted to editing his threads?

Why is JL left holding the bag on this whole affair?

Why the lie that JL was able to post anytime he wanted to when he was banned?

Why lead the forum to believe this was all JL's fault, when it is obvious that all he was doing was trying to find out why his friends had so suddenly turned against him.

Why does ATS allow members to attack without correction a former CM who was banned through no fault of his own?

Why does ATS seem to quiet and close threads by JL supporters pointing out the discrepancies of the ATS version of the issue.

All of these questions, and many more were behind my post yesterday. I am sorry if I offended the masses... but there is something going on here that is so wrong on so many levels.

JL is not an armchair CT. He is actually out there talking to people and tracking down leads so that the people will know what is going on. He has the connections and experience that make him far more qualified to state his theories and experiences than ANYONE else on this forum, with the exception of Jim Marrs. Name me one member of this site with his qualifications? All the little ankle biters that have never done one thing to advance the knowledge of the Lear topics, or any topic for that matter... but are so willing to kick a good man while he is down should be ashamed of themselves.

I will stand by John Lear... at least he is actually trying to make a difference and deny ignorance, unlike the many who defame him.

yr

Originally posted by yankeerose
First, I would like to thank ATS Mgmt for not banning me.

It always amazes me that people anticipate getting banned for stuff like this.

Would ATS be a site that would be mined by them for the information it contains?? Absolutely!

Check out my post here
One of the tidbits I didn't mention is that the thread has also been heavily visited by nearly every intelligence and law enforcement agency you can imagine.

Why were S.O. and the mods assigned to the case unable to find the remarks quoted by John Lear?

If you Google many of them, they're no where to be found... still, while some indeed are within the thread. This is what led to the initial concern. In fact, our staff first approached this from the standpoint that Jeff is the one that should be banned... until some of the quotes weren't readily apparent.

Why did S.O. email JL that Ritz had admitted to editing his threads?

That was my false assumption (admitted in the Camelot thread). When I emailed Jeff the list of quotes from John, he admitted saying those things, and given the edit tags, my immediate assumption was that Jeff removed some of them.

Why is JL left holding the bag on this whole affair?

Well... unfortunately, John jumped to some errant conclusions. He wrongly concluded that our desire to keep a tit-for-tat spat between two respected members off the public forums was some form of cover-up. It wasn't. We've "stuck our neck" out several dozen times in our year-long effort to support his ability to further his opinions, concepts, and theories here on ATS because of this stature in the overall aliens and conspiracy genre. We've defended his forum here, spent money with our PR agency to promote him, gave him significant time in our podcasts, and much more. There have been dozens of times where he has privately brought issues like this one to our attention... I have no idea why he chose to begin a public drama over minor rhetorical comments, but he did and we did our best to try and resolve it amicably.

Why the lie that JL was able to post anytime he wanted to when he was banned?

I think this is a simple misconceptions. Members who receive a post-ban have an open door to discuss their status and work things out behind the scenes. In my last email to John, that open was clearly made available to him.

Why lead the forum to believe this was all JL's fault, when it is obvious that all he was doing was trying to find out why his friends had so suddenly turned against him.

Well... given what I just related above, it has seemed to us as though he had suddenly turned against us... or was using this event as a reason to make a noisy exit. I don't know his motives, but that's how it looked from our end. I liked John... still do. While I don't agree with many of his concepts, I have and will fully support his right to say them, and even go so far as to add that the "conspiracy theory" genre as a whole needs to hear what he has to say.

Why does ATS allow members to attack without correction a former CM

We do need to work harder to ensure our members separate the man from the theories when critique happens. I think many people got into the habit of focusing on him while he was here because he had an often "crotchety" posting style that seemed to invite personal commentary head-on.

Why does ATS seem to quiet and close threads by JL supporters pointing out the discrepancies of the ATS version of the issue.

Does my information above fill in the appropriate blanks?