Republicans: How do you justify what Bush has done?

Can you?
How do you justify an unjust war?
How do you justify thousands and thousands of lives lost, American and foreign?
How do you justify what has been done to our economy?
How do you justify torture?

I'm not looking to start a mess of fights or anything, I just want to see it how republicans see it, because I have a hard time understanding it.

You will be hard pressed to find anyone on here that justifies what bush has done/is doing/will do. I agree with what you are trying to say, just go tell some other people.

I don't know a single person who likes him. At least half think he's an ass, the other half think he's as dangerous and evil as Hitler.

Granted, my friends and family aren't Joe sixpack, but you really have to be an ignorant walking piece of meat not to see there is something seriously wrong going on here...

Originally posted by wisefoolishness
Can you?
How do you justify an unjust war?
How do you justify thousands and thousands of lives lost, American and foreign?
How do you justify what has been done to our economy?
How do you justify torture?

I'm not looking to start a mess of fights or anything, I just want to see it how republicans see it, because I have a hard time understanding it.

How do you justify that the war was unjust? Sadamm Hussein violated 18 UN resolutions. How long could we just sit by and let him go against the will of the world?

I was in the Army and was ready and willing to give my life for my country if I was called into battle. 4,000 casualities in a 5 year war is extremely low. Just a little higher casualty rate than in non-war years.

The economy was in the tank right after 9/11/01. The DOW fell all the way down to 7000. We fought back with the Bush tax cuts the DOW doubled and is now currently around 13000. The economy was doing reasonably well until the Democrats took over Congress in 2006.

The United States does not use torture. Messing with someone's mind and making someone uncomfortable is not torture. Waterboarding is not torture.

Don't get me wrong Bush was not perfect. His immigration policy stinks, his failure to push partial privatization of Social Security, and failure to open up ANWAR are just a few of his mistakes.

Originally posted by wisefoolishness
Can you?
How do you justify an unjust war?

I'd also like to know why you think this war was unjust. It's easy to say, but backing it up is where the wicket gets sticky.

How do you justify thousands and thousands of lives lost, American and foreign?

This is inherently tied to the first question, although it's simply reality. Reality, most times, is different than theory and wishes.

How do you justify what has been done to our economy?

By whom? Bush 1, Bush 2, Ford, Nixon, Carter, Clinton, Congress, Greenspan? The president is much further removed from the economy than is Congress, who is farther than the Fed (the closest).

How do you justify torture?

Define torture. Personally, I'd burn, torture, and be generally savage if it was needed to save lives. Who do you think we are fighting? It certainly isn't any party that signed the Geneva Convention.



Personal Note: I'd say the war in Iraq was a bad idea, actually said it since about a month before it began. I could care less who wants to kill each other, be it in Africa, the Middle East, China, etc. Let em, screw em.

It when they touch us that I begin to care and would prefer far more violent responses.

I'm not looking to start a mess of fights or anything, I just want to see it how republicans see it, because I have a hard time understanding it.

It might be easier to understand if we had something concrete to refute, both practically and philosophically.

[edit on 5-5-2008 by KrazyJethro]

bush is in bed with the oil companies, he is a greedy man and has no problems murdering a few million arabs. His religious beliefs push him furture the jews are gods chosen and the arabs must be removed from the promised land. I know that he is in fact barking mad and should have been removed and thrown in jail a long time ago. The human race hasn`t a lot of time left, we will turn on one another as things get harder and thats no joke, water food fuel will bring bigger wars and those with chemicals germs nuclear weapons like the jews will bring about the end, god won`t be around to pick up the pieces no one will.

Originally posted by RRconservative


The economy was in the tank right after 9/11/01. The DOW fell all the way down to 7000. We fought back with the Bush tax cuts the DOW doubled and is now currently around 13000. The economy was doing reasonably well until the Democrats took over Congress in 2006.

Once again

It was 2007. Not 2006

And things may suck BIG TIME now, but they sucked 'big time' before 2007 as well.
Bush is responsible. Democrats are responsible. But the democratic fault comes from investigating MLB steroid usage instead of fixing the problems Bush caused.

Justify this to me.

Saddam Hussein's regime is estimated to have killed about 250,000 Iraqi non-combatants in 20 years.

The Iraq War is estimated to have killed about 600,000 - 1,000,000 Iraqi non-combatants in four years.

Yep, Saddam was the bad one murdering thousands of innocents.

The United States does not use torture. Messing with someone's mind and making someone uncomfortable is not torture. Waterboarding is not torture.

I suggest you visit this website:
www.vanityfair.com...

Note that Christopher Hitchens supported the Iraq War, he's not some radical liberal.

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
Justify this to me.

Saddam Hussein's regime is estimated to have killed about 250,000 Iraqi non-combatants in 20 years.

The Iraq War is estimated to have killed about 600,000 - 1,000,000 Iraqi non-combatants in four years.

First of all, many have already come out and stated that those numbers are very inflated. Discounting that, you can't put all of those killings at the feet of Bush or the military. A very small percentage of the real number is due to the military. Most of these killing are due to terrorists. I guess you could blame the US since the terrorists wouldn't be killing the civilians if we weren't there, but that's a stretch.

Originally posted by RRconservative


How do you justify that the war was unjust? Sadamm Hussein violated 18 UN resolutions. How long could we just sit by and let him go against the will of the world?

Wait. I thought we attacked Iraq because they had WMDs? I thought we attacked them because they supported terrorists?

You see, your reason could ALMOST justify a policing action done by the UN but not an all out military offensive started by the U.S.

I was in the Army and was ready and willing to give my life for my country if I was called into battle. 4,000 casualities in a 5 year war is extremely low. Just a little higher casualty rate than in non-war years.

I was in the Army too and willing to do so during the first Gulf War. And now you are belittling the loss of American soldiers! Plus you're not even counting the ally troop casualties and the tens of thousands who come home permanently disabled. Just because someone doesn't die doesn't mean it's okay. Losing two legs kind of sucks. Especially when you realize you won't be getting the best treatment and financial support that you were lead to believe you would.

The economy was in the tank right after 9/11/01. The DOW fell all the way down to 7000. We fought back with the Bush tax cuts the DOW doubled and is now currently around 13000. The economy was doing reasonably well until the Democrats took over Congress in 2006.

I can't really argue with this one. You can't blame this soley on Bush. However, the world's veiw of us is also kind of important to our economy since we decided that we MUST have globalization. Since when do we base the economy on the DOW? That's a joke. We base it on many different things. Because by your estimates it means that Clinton did wonders for this economy. I remember the DOW at under 4k when he took office. It went up 3 times that to 12k when he left. In other words, you are saying that Bush brought it up to 13k which isn't even covering the inflation rate compared to what it was when Clinton left. Only 1k advance in almost 7 years? Hmmmm, I guess according to you, that means Bush is responsible for a stagnant gain. Granted, it fell like a rock after 9/11 but then again, there are questions about that event too.

The United States does not use torture. Messing with someone's mind and making someone uncomfortable is not torture. Waterboarding is not torture.

Really? Have you tried it? Sorry, but torture is torture. It causes them mental pain which is ten times worse than physical pain. It has been proven over and over and over by REAL experts on the subject that it doesn't work. People will start to say whatever they think their captors want them to say just as long as they stop.

Oh yeah, because the administration forced a new definition of torture on congress for them to pass, I guess it means it's not torture ANYMORE. What total BS.

Don't get me wrong Bush was not perfect. His immigration policy stinks, his failure to push partial privatization of Social Security, and failure to open up ANWAR are just a few of his mistakes.

?
?
I don't get the first two statements. First, his immigration policy is non-existant so I guess it does suck. Social Security needs to be more than partially privatized but that won't happen because government wants to control as much as they can. How has he failed to open up ANWAR? I thought the Dems in congress have screwed everything up.

I'm just trying to make the point that seems to be a constant in many of the Republicans I come across. (Sad thing is that I usually vote Republican because those were my standards until this guy took over). You believe things that are false as reasons for attacking Iraq and ignore the evidence out there that points to the real reasons for entering the Middle East.

Please, I simply ask for you guys to read the document presented to this president when he took office that was written by the Project for a New American Century. It's clearly stated in there the order in which things need to happen before the U.S. can assure that they remain the only Super Power in the world. In this exact order it states that we need to go into Afghanistan (check), then establish a foothold in Iraq (check), and then Iran (in process now with the MSM and administration trying to set the table for invasion), and then the far east (China anyone?)

It was published on September 11th, 2000. It also quite plainly stated that this action will take roughly a century unless there is an event equivalent to a 'New Pearl Harbor'.

What does George say in one of his first speeches after 911? He blatantly throws this in the publics face and states that we have experience our own 'Pearl Harbor'. Nice coincidence, yes?

Originally posted by BlueTriangle

First of all, many have already come out and stated that those numbers are very inflated. Discounting that, you can't put all of those killings at the feet of Bush or the military. A very small percentage of the real number is due to the military. Most of these killing are due to terrorists. I guess you could blame the US since the terrorists wouldn't be killing the civilians if we weren't there, but that's a stretch.

How is that a stretch? How many terrorists attacks were there in Iraq before we invaded under false pretenses? I'll tell you. NONE. Why? Because Saddam did not support terrorism. This is NOT exagerrated.

Now, the 600,000 to 1M number probably is. I have heard varying reports where it is closer to 100k. Still, most of them are NOT killed by terrorist acts. They are killed in gunfights between militants and ally soldiers. They are killed in bombings (air, not terrorist).

I think you will find that easily more than half are due to acts of the ally forces. Not to forget about the lack of food and water for many months after we bombed the hell out of the major cities.

Originally posted by BlueTriangle

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
Justify this to me.

Saddam Hussein's regime is estimated to have killed about 250,000 Iraqi non-combatants in 20 years.

The Iraq War is estimated to have killed about 600,000 - 1,000,000 Iraqi non-combatants in four years.

First of all, many have already come out and stated that those numbers are very inflated. Discounting that, you can't put all of those killings at the feet
of Bush or the military. A very small percentage of the real number is due to the military. Most of these killing are due to terrorists. I guess you could blame the US since the terrorists wouldn't be killing the civilians if we weren't there, but that's a stretch.

It's not a stretch at all. There were no terrorist groups in Iraq pre-2003 with any influence at all. Al-Qaeda et. al. only entered after we did. Period. We brought them there.

The official, documented number of civilian deaths is about 90,000 as per documented news reports gathered here:

www.iraqbodycount.org...

Now, obviously it's foolish to assume that the death of every Iraqi civilian is documented, which is why that number is so comparatively low.

The larger numbers come primarily from statistically conducted polls where it was determined through direct observation and extrapolation what percentage of households had lost at least one member due to violence. These numbers come up to 600,000 - 1,000,000.

The Iraqi Health ministry reports about 151,000 killed as of January 2008.

No matter how you slice it, 90,000 to 1,00,000 over 4 years is not a "good" number.

The estimates for Saddam's death toll ranges greatly. It's impossible to find an exact number of how many his regime murdered over a 20 year period. The estimate of 250,000 comes from (I believe) a US human rights group survey.

Not to mention the 4,117 US soldiers killed and 30,349 seriously wounded in Iraq.

Originally posted by wisefoolishness
Can you?
How do you justify an unjust war?
How do you justify thousands and thousands of lives lost, American and foreign?
How do you justify what has been done to our economy?
How do you justify torture?

I'm not looking to start a mess of fights or anything, I just want to see it how republicans see it, because I have a hard time understanding it.

-Unjust war by who's standards? Not the US congress or UN resolutions. (Yes I know the UN was against the invasion)

-The war is going to wage if we fight or not. I'd rather be on the offensive. In the end, we will all be better off for it. Our troops are all volunteer, so I chose not to disrespect their choice. Being a veteran, I'm very happy with the choice I made.

-Nothing has been done to our economy. Economies rise and fall. Its the nature of beast.

-The only torture that's been done, was on 3 of the highest ranking AQ 9/11 perpetrators. It lead to valuable information, so I have no problem with that. I wouldn't want to make it a habit though. If it saves innocent American lives, than so be it.

Wait. I thought we attacked Iraq because they had WMDs? I thought we attacked them because they supported terrorists?

You see, your reason could ALMOST justify a policing action done by the UN but not an all out military offensive started by the U.S.

No actually, there were just LOTS of reasons to take out Saddam. It had been in the works for at least a decade but more so since 1998.

[edit on 17-7-2008 by Dronetek]

Why only Bush? Why only Republicans? Am I missing something. A lot of what Bush has done has been condones by the Democrats also. Where Republicans the only ones who voted for and passed the Patriot Act, FISA, Spending bills, going to War, and many other legislations that are blamed on Bush.

Why so one sided? They are all one and the same. They like power, live for greed, and are determined to screw us every way possible so that we have to depend on them for everything. They will lie to you in a New York minute to get your vote to be elected and take their Texas sweet Ass time to deliver on what they said.

Originally posted by Dronetek
-Unjust war by who's standards? Not the US congress or UN resolutions. (Yes I know the UN was against the invasion)

This statement is content-free. The Congress gave the President powers to invade without requiring him to do so. This alone does not make this war just. Second, you said yourself that UN was against the invasion.

The war was unjust because it was based on propaganda and highly questionable intel. This in itself it totally wrong. You actually know how it all went, with the known fraudster Chalabi feeding cooky information to the US. And the intelligence community was under pressure from the Bush asministration who wantd the war at all costs.

-The war is going to wage if we fight or not. I'd rather be on the offensive.

What the hell... Was Iraq planning an invasion of the US??? What kind of crap is that?

This is too easy...

Can you? Sure Can!!!

How do you justify an unjust war?
(It is not unjust just because you and some liberals want to claim it is does not in fact make it so.) I support the war 100%

How do you justify thousands and thousands of lives lost, American and foreign?
(Which time? During WWI. WWII. Korea. Vietnam?)
Again, I support the war completely. People die in combat.. I would know.

How do you justify what has been done to our economy?
(It is what the Democrats do; they destroy economies. Prior to their taking control of both the house and senate, the economy was BOOMING, Unemployment was at a historical low, housing was unbelievable and gas prices were reasonable) Elect more Democrats and you will get more of the same.

How do you justify torture?
(Whatever it takes to win)
Also, who's definition of torture? Certainly not mine so that must mean it is YOUR OPINION...

See? Simple

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
This is too easy...

Can you? Sure Can!!!

You sure can to post nonsense and call it an answer. That's for sure.

How do you justify an unjust war?
(It is not unjust just because you and some liberals want to claim it is does not in fact make it so.) I support the war 100%

Your misguided support, Sir, does not make this war just.

How do you justify thousands and thousands of lives lost, American and foreign?
(Which time? During WWI. WWII. Korea. Vietnam?)
Again, I support the war completely. People die in combat.. I would know.

Well you might be a hardened vet and what not, but you don't justify anything, you are just stating that people die in combat. How profound! How thoughtful!

How do you justify torture?
(Whatever it takes to win)

I'm confused now, are you sure you don't work for Al Qaeda? Coz you sure sound like one of them.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Those are your opinions as I have stated mine.

The only difference was I chose to NOT attack you, where as your argument is so weak you needed to attack my post with personal references.

Your misguided support

Well you might be a hardened vet and what not,

are you sure you don't work for Al Qaeda?

As one can clearly see, my argument and my opinion was strong enough to stand on it's own, where as you needed insults to bolster what must be to you a weak, unsubstantiated opinion.

Very UN-ATS of you.

And yes, I am a Vet, and Yes I did fight and bleed to support your opinion. No matter how weak it may be.

Semper

[edit on 7/17/2008 by semperfortis]

reply to post by semperfortis


Semper, you didn't give ANYTHING in the way of logic and argument supporting the war and then you proceeded to say that my objections to that were un-ATS?

What you are saying, it seems, that you don't need ANY justification for the war and are just eager to fight. Oh well.

Originally posted by semperfortis
This is too easy...

Can you? Sure Can!!!

How do you justify an unjust war?
(It is not unjust just because you and some liberals want to claim it is does not in fact make it so.) I support the war 100%

How do you justify thousands and thousands of lives lost, American and foreign?
(Which time? During WWI. WWII. Korea. Vietnam?)
Again, I support the war completely. People die in combat.. I would know.

How do you justify what has been done to our economy?
(It is what the Democrats do; they destroy economies. Prior to their taking control of both the house and senate, the economy was BOOMING, Unemployment was at a historical low, housing was unbelievable and gas prices were reasonable) Elect more Democrats and you will get more of the same.

How do you justify torture?
(Whatever it takes to win)
Also, who's definition of torture? Certainly not mine so that must mean it is YOUR OPINION...

See? Simple

Semper

Yet another post I wish had a negative star. You say that you can answer the OPs questions yet you give empty declarations of war mongering in place of any real answer.

Liberals are not the only ones calling this war unjust. Many conservatives are starting to cross party lines because they are realizing that the war was based on empty intel and huge propoganda by this administration.

If you say you are going to answer then at least give some substance instead of garbage. You think you are being a patriot by taking this stance. My friend, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you are NOT being a patriot.