A Why to Atheists & Darwinism

Originally posted by LOYAL
Is it all coincidence that we have best physical features that can help produce what we have produced today and at the same time wiser than all other species ..... is it all coincidence?

I think you have a very limited imagination if you think this is the best we could possibly be. Imagine a being made of diamonds that lives 10 million years and communicates instantly with all others of the same species, filled with love, and able to manipulate space and energy to build galaxy-sized works of precious art and music.

Not some little horrible, weak flesh creature swimming around in muck, riddled with cancer, and crippled by hunger and stupidity and death.

Open up your mind and imagine all the wonderful things we could be instead, and then try to explain why your god (however poorly you want to try to define it) didn't choose those things instead of this.

reply to post by Nohup


Is your conclusion that since you don't understand why a god would create humans as mortals, it can't be that way? That's the very thing the original poster was ridiculed for. Simply not understanding doesn't eliminate a possiblity.

Originally posted by runetang
The human, using his mental ability and intelligence, realizes that the dog's blood and oxygen supply travel to its' head through its' neck, and proceed to get a grasp on it and choke it to death, while momentarily "overpowering it" so as not to get bit while the choking process occurs.

Exactly, any human being or anything for that matter would realise where the specific parts assure maximum damage to an enemy are on both his an his opponent's body, and would take full advantage of anything at his disposal in order to get to it, and at the same time minimise damage to himself.

P.S: I get what you were saying with the point on the human anatomy, soulslayer, but don't forget the same thing applies for other animals as well as humans.

An experienced hunter would know of these things, of course.

[edit on 5-5-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

Originally posted by dbates

You're looking at the end result, and for the life of yourself you can't figure out how a few simple natural processes created it.

Not just the end result, but also the probability of the end result. If you were in front of a firing squad of 1,000 men and they all missed you would you simply say "I'm still alive so obviously it's the result of a natural process" or just shrug because the near impossible happened? No, of course you would want to inquire as to how 1,000 chances to eliminate you were missed. There's nothing wrong with asking if the whole scenario was rigged to begin with by an outsider giving orders to the soldiers.



Hey Dbates, how ya doin,

The same argument is used by the magicians of evolution. As we see Dave using the tired quip so often said to diminish the creationist saying "God did it" . Now, I myself know that's a given and is just as obvious an answer to me as it is out of the question for someone like Dave. Dave has a point though that when inquiry to the most perplexing questions life has for us, I can only wonder why they don't see Evolution offring anything better than, It was done by "Magic". Spontaneuous life is another they will use the same argument that given enough time and number of opportunities if that 1 in a 1000 chance doesn't happen, the odds of it happening in the next 1 in 1000 are even worse.

- Con

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by dbates

 

I'm not ruling out the possibility, I'm just waiting for any evidence before elevating it to the same level as anything that does have evidence supporting it. As it is, ID has no evidence supporting it at all, compared to the mountains of evidence backing evolution.

And your firing squad analogy is fatally flawed, as it is not comparable to the mechanisms at play here in the slightest

but there aren't mountains of evidence backing evolution. People are seeing/making assumptions and connections with things in ways that make sense to them. People will believe in what ever supports the way they wish to live their life.

Originally posted by Nohup

Not some little horrible, weak flesh creature swimming around in muck, riddled with cancer, and crippled by hunger and stupidity and death.

Open up your mind and imagine all the wonderful things we could be instead, and then try to explain why your god (however poorly you want to try to define it) didn't choose those things instead of this.

It never ceases to amaze me the people that actually think they can do Gods Job better than God. I see them critisize the faulty design of the Zebra and how imperfect the hind legs were made. I saw one debate where they wax poetic about how their design would be a better built leg with a high performance bone structure and re-engineered knee. This is all well and good but not if it keeps a lion from getting its next meal.

We really have no idea how everything fits to the smallest detail. When I see evolutionists talking about how imperfect we are, I just whince in embarrassment for them. I mean c'mon, most of us have trouble knowing how to program the damn VCR / DVD player. I will tell you the day we start trying to make things our way the way we think they ought to be, is the day we start to find out just why the way they are is the way they are supposed to be and if it isn't too late,, the reason why because we simply have no CLUE.


Oh before I forget, you think Diamond man is so cool? Better than flesh?

Ill tell ya why God has it all over you about that.

Ya see, flesh and blood

makes a great host

for living things

- Con

Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant
Okay, come on - we'll do this by statistics.

How much would you say an average dog weighs?

No, lets just do it as you said and it just happens to be MY dog Rocky attacking you. He is 171 pounds, has a head like a cinder block. When he stands on his hind legs, he is approx 5'9 or 10 tall and he could snap your leg in half at the knee in one bite. Forget about your forearms they are gone and unless you got a gun or a baseball bat, you are most likely going to bleed out and die.


Now lets try chimpanzees,

In the first three or four seconds of the fight with a full grown chimp, say good bye to your fingers and thumbs testicles. 14-20 seconds later, your facial features like your nose, lips ears etc,. GONE

If you can get to water, you got chance because Chimps sink like a rock.

They sink because their bones are so much more dense than ours that you could literally hit one repeatedly with that baseball ball bat and he would think you were playing a game.

Just about ANY wild animal that attacks us is going to have the advantage without us having some weapon and or protective device.

Mike Tyson vs Chimp

Tyson will look better but will never put his fingers on a woman again.

- Con

There are mountains in evolution; ones which contain an awesomely traceable fossil record. It's a tried and tested method on ATS: bring up creationism vs evolution, then sit back and reap those ATS points!
Another thing that does seem to be wholly consistent, is the woefully inadequate knowledge of evolution that creationists have. I love science, and am an ardent follower of evolution, and even I have numerous gaps. It's a huge and complicated field to follow, but if you take the time to read up on it, you will see it makes perfect, logical sense. Nature does not gamble. She is exact in everything, and everything is a result of the causes before it. Evolution is a perfectly natural, ongoing process. The problem is only confined to to us gathering the evidence, which takes time, and smart people: something were pretty restricted on!
If you look at back at our history over the last few thousand years, you should be able to see something remarkable. That is the power of religion to shroud us in darkness and ignorance. After the great rising of intellect and invention from the ancient cultures of Greece, Egypt and the Middle East, we have this period where religion was in control. We refer to this period as the DARK AGES. Invention and intellect and science were nullified. Replaced instead with blind obedience, servitude, fear and superstition. For a thousand years, religion crippled the advancement of humanity, but around 1600, religions power waned, and from the darkness, the flower of the Enlightenment blossomed!
Just take a look now at what is going on in the Middle East, and tell me that religion is not a wrecker? From the lands that gave us the inventions of math and writing, to nations ruled by fear, that use fear as it's guiding principle in the world. Most of the Middle East is no further ahead than it was some 3000 years ago, and it is all solely to blame upon religion.
God was an easy explanation for humanity. But humanity is growing up, and like any growing child, he begins to ask questions. But we don't have an adult to ask - we must find the answers for ourselves. Not only do we now know that it is not Santa that brings us the Christmas presents, we also know a lot of the history of Santa. We can see the Pagan beginnings, we can see the festivals of Saturnalia and Sol Invictus, and the life history of Saint Nickolas. We can see this whole idea has evolved, even to recent times when Coca-Cola changed his colors to red and white for one of their 1930's ad campaigns! Some people will choose to always believe in a Santa, decked out in red and white, just as some will always want to believe in an invisible man in the sky as an explanation for whatever it is they dont understand. And that is understandable, as humanity has been subject to the control and abuses of religion for thousands of years. It is a difficult harness to be free from, and it is sciences job to find the truths of the laws of the universe, and show the downtrodden and the bondaged that there is nothing to fear. Fear keeps people in control, that's why people use it, and it is the principle basis of most religions. It is the Pavlovian on a global scale. Do and believe as we say, you get the reward - go against us, and you are going to hell. Reward and punishment - just how we manipulate children into doing our will.
Genetics, Geology, Paleontology, Physics, Chemistry, Anthropology, Biology, Astronomy - all aspects of science that are helping shed light on the universe, and it's history. It is from science that we have medicine, technology, transport, communication - not from God. Knowledge will set you free, not superstition.

reply to post by cruzion

Evolution is a perfectly natural, ongoing process. The problem is only confined to to us gathering the evidence, which takes time, and smart people:

alright, given that evolution is an ongoing process, what do you expect to evolve out of human beings next... apes->Humans-> Next???

I have not studied anything like this as of yet that scientist are expecting some new species that would be our descendant .... ???

PS: damn you got me man... i just noticed i gained some 200 hundred points

[edit on 6-5-2008 by LOYAL]

reply to post by Conspiriology


Yeah mate, that's your dog - isn't that a great example to use in a scenario where one is alone, unarmed and faced with a feral advesary?

How would your dog deal with a human who had a history of defeating animals unarmed?

Such people have existed in the past, big and mean [profanity] who would quite happily kick a puppy if it looked at him wrong.

If you're gonna make the dog bigger than average, then it's only reasonable that one could make the human bigger by the order of magnitude.

I mean, when you look at the real big guys among our species, i'd say that just one heavyweight could take on a small pack if he was prepared to die like a fighter.

reply to post by Conspiriology


That's fine! Clearly you don't understand how evolution works, so you lay the credit on your ol' buddy, God. That's your right - you don't have to use your brain to learn how things work. Just sit there and chalk everything you don't understand up to God. Luckily the rest of humanity isn't that gullible and actually uses the gifts "God" gave them. You're squandering yours in some futile attempt to keep your world together.

Don't bang on at us for not understanding when you haven't got a clue about evolution, other than some preacher told you it was bad atheist juju. Because that's what would be required to turn an otherwise-logical person against such mountains of evidence. Your faith is to be commended, it's just a shame it's leading you down a dark and ignorant path. The real kicker is you want it to happen.

alright, given that evolution is an ongoing process, what do you expect to evolve out of human beings next... apes->Humans-> Next???



No idea what the next macro-evolution jump would be. Micro-evolutionary, we can see from the data that humans are becoming taller, living longer, becoming less hairy, genes are becoming less isolated and local to becoming globally spread. Humans rely less and less upon physical strength, so reductions in muscle mass, perhaps also reduction in testosterone and other chemicals, growth in hippocampus, reduction of tibia, changing facial features perhaps?
There's also a social and environmental aspect to evolution, and perhaps even from toxins, disease and other chemicals could have major impact in the future. Who knows, let's come back in 2 million years and check it out...

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by Conspiriology

 

Your faith is to be commended, it's just a shame it's leading you down a dark and ignorant path. The real kicker is you want it to happen.

As Nietzsche once said "Faith is the avoidance of truth".
One of the things about religion is, well, it's kinda crazy, but the other thing is that you can only get a reward from religion by having total faith - by believing whatever it is your told to believe. It's kinda like an on/off switch. You can't just believe, then not believe for a while, then believe again. It's either one or the other, and the change is pretty permanent. Of course, indoctrination begins as a child, and is reinforced constantly. It's not till after years of brainwashing that those children develop to the age where they can use reason to fathom the universe, by which time they have this idea bashed into them on an almost archetypal level. You get the same disturbing entrapment from other profiteering manufacturers too, like McDonalds "Get them when they're young, and they'll always be a customer"...

Originally posted by dave420


That's fine! Clearly you don't understand how evolution works,

What! oh my,, I must have missed the latest update to the massive ever increasingly obvious COVER UP evolution has become Dave

you don't have to use your brain to learn how things work.

Apparently not.

Luckily the rest of humanity isn't that gullible and actually uses the gifts "God" gave them. You're squandering yours in some futile attempt to keep your world together.

I think it's nice you admit the gifts are from "God" but "squandering"?? how am I doing that Dave?

Don't bang on at us for not understanding when you haven't got a clue about evolution, other than some preacher told you it was bad atheist juju.

Darwin doesn't have a clue about evolution and if you THINK YOU do,, Please, share with me Dave, Share with me what you know about PROOF and the difference between that which is unequivovally absolute proof prima facei and that which you CLEARLY don't know an IOTA of truth about.

Please Dave, show me the MOUNTAIN and I'll show YOU the molehill the landfill you are so impressed with. Please do because frankly, I'm so tired of hearing about this damn mountain YOU ALWAYS mention while not so much as leaving a crumb a link a damn BIT of proof that YOU even know what you are talking about.

Your faith is to be commended, it's just a shame it's leading you down a dark and ignorant path. The real kicker is you want it to happen.

You get this from Sylvia Brown, dave or are you God?

How the hell do you know?

Ya don't and THAT'S

a FACT

- Con

Athiesm is idiocy because they find some scientific plause to the reasoning.

Darwinism is partially correct and partially the work of a Mad Scientist, that helped sponser the idea of eugenism which is utter ludacris.

So both are incorrect in my unbias viewpoint with scientific literature. We haven't came to grasps with what really all there is.

Originally posted by cruzion
You get the same disturbing entrapment from other profiteering manufacturers too, like McDonalds "Get them when they're young, and they'll always be a customer"...

Yep and thats how they advance their athesism in our public schools by teaching the mountain of evolution is a real place somewhere


Just nobody seems to know where

I guess they're all lost eh

- Con

Originally posted by Anti-Tyrant

Yeah mate, that's your dog - isn't that a great example to use in a scenario where one is alone, unarmed and faced with a feral advesary?

How would your dog deal with a human who had a history of defeating animals unarmed?

We have any statistics of such a fighter? Even Davy Crokett used a knife.

If their was such a man, I'd bet on the chimp the man goes down in critical condition if alive at all.

Such people have existed in the past, big and mean [profanity] who would quite happily kick a puppy if it looked at him wrong.

Besides Michael Vick, who are are you talking about.

It doesn't matter how big the guy is, that's why K9 corp dogs are usually big dogs. I have seen what a Good sized Dog can do to an unarmed man more than most, and They can kill you if you aren't real lucky or don't have a weapon. My dog took down a 6'4 ft 240 lb man who HAD a staff in his hand. If I had not been near him he would have taken his head off.

Man doesn't have much going for him without weapons

- Con





[edit on 6-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

(and yes the sign is most likely photoshopped)

made me think of this picture it might still be an empty cage.

Humans are pretty fragile without opposable thumbs and the affinity for tools to compensate for our lack of strength or whatever ability it be.

[edit on 6-5-2008 by Fibonacci11235]

OK. The fossil record, and stratigraphy. Over time, the eolian system, and water erosion combine to erode rock into particulate matter. This sediment collects, and over time, more sediments lay on top of each other, and over more time, they begin to compact because of the pressure. This is what produced the lines that you usually see in sedimentary rock. That is pretty basic geology. It's logical that the further down you dig in the ground, the more layers that you go through. Each layer is a certain period in time. So the deeper you go, the further back in time you go. Now, in these layers are bones, skeletons and fossilised remains of creatures. Creatures that live at some point in history. What science has found, is that as you move down these layers, there are changes in the make up of the creatures. Gradual changes. What can you deduce from those observations? That the creatures change over time. WOW! Evolution. How obvious does it have to be?

Originally posted by Conspiriology

Originally posted by cruzion
You get the same disturbing entrapment from other profiteering manufacturers too, like McDonalds "Get them when they're young, and they'll always be a customer"...

Yep and thats how they advance their athesism in our public schools by teaching the mountain of evolution is a real place somewhere


Just nobody seems to know where

I guess they're all lost eh

- Con

Man you live in a fantasy world. Oh wait, you literally do! It's the world of religion. I forgot for a second...
What they try to teach is the scientific method. The same thing that helped bring about all the technology you use to post up the desperate affirmation of your fantasy-belief to the world. Religion is blind obedience. The religious always deny everything else in the world that is not in accord with what they have been told to believe. The BIG difference with science is that we are not told to believe. It's a case of 'here's data, and here's what we can deduce from that data'. There's thousands of people everyday using the theories that have been aquired over centuries of investigation of the natural world. Those observations and data and theories are what built your LCD, your PC, the engineering of your house, the extraction of the minerals to produce all the goods in your home, the electricity that runs in your home, all the components of your car, your television... You think the science community is too stupid to get their heads around evolution? You think it is that huge of a blunder? You are delusional. You need to wake up out of your church-sanctioned dream and see the world.

[edit on 7-5-2008 by cruzion]