Thermite found in WTC dust

Originally posted by Griff
What an easy way to "get away with it" if thermite was actually used.

Well, you gotta admit that the whole spheres thing is inconclusive, at best. Or at least Jones seems to think so.

And of course it's confirmed by the fact that contrary to the fantasy movement's beliefs, the steel WAS inspected at the landfill sites, and any steel that showed strange signs was flagged and sent to NIST.

That's how the "melted" beams from 7 were found, which confirms that the inspection process was fairly rigorous. Again, which is contrary to the beliefs held by CTists..........

Thier are theories that molten aluminum from the planes casued thermite reactions.

www.firehouse.com...

Molten aluminum has a 4-digit UN identification number of 9260. When referenced in the ERG it refers to guide 77 for hazards of the material. Guide 77 was an addition to the 1993 version of the ERG. Molten aluminum is the only material that refers to this guide. The guide indicates that the material is above 1300� F, and will react violently with water, which may cause an explosion, and release a flammable gas. The molten material in contact with combustible materials may cause ignition, if the molten material is above the ignition temperature of the combustible material. For example, gasoline has an average ignition temperature of around 800� F. Diesel fuel has an average ignition temperature of around 400� F, depending on the blend, and additives. In an accident gasoline or diesel fuel could be spilled. The molten material could be an ignition source for the gasoline or diesel fuel if it came in contact. When contacting concrete on a roadway, or at a fixed facility, molten materials could cause spalling and small pops. This could cause pieces of concrete to become projectiles. Contact with the skin would cause severe thermal burns. There is no personnel protective clothing that would adequately protect responders from contact with molten materials.

[edit on 5-5-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
That's how the "melted" beams from 7 were found, which confirms that the inspection process was fairly rigorous. Again, which is contrary to the beliefs held by CTists..........

NIST did not recover any steel from building 7 for testing.

wtc.nist.gov...

Because NIST recovered no steel from WTC 7, it is not possible to make any statements about its quality. The recommended values for the stress-strain behavior were estimated using the same methodology that was used for the WTC 1 and WTC 2 steels (NIST NCSTAR 1-3D). The static yield strengths were estimated from historical averages and corrected for testing rate effects.

Because, prior to collapse, WTC 7 did not suffer any high-strain rate events, NIST made no effort to estimate high-strain-rate or impact properties of the steel.

No metallography could be carried out because no steel was recovered from WTC 7.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
NIST did not recover any steel from building 7 for testing.

You beat me to it. It was FEMA who tested steel from 7. NIST ignored 7's steel and FEMA's report all together.

Edit: Isn't it strange that an entity taxed with finding out what happened and ways to "fix" what was wrong, just totally ignored WTC 7? The largest building collapse ever in human history from fire, and they just ignore it? How telling.

[edit on 5/5/2008 by Griff]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

NIST did not recover any steel from building 7 for testing.

Oops, right. It was FEMA that reported on the "melted" beams.

My bad.

But you already knew that since you had numerous posts in Griff's thread about that very thing.

Funny that you didn't mention that..........

reply to post by ULTIMA1


No offense but I didn't see anything in your quote about natural themite and how it could concievably mix at the right amounts to become thermite. Thanks.

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
Well, you gotta admit that the whole spheres thing is inconclusive, at best.

That is my point. If you were a conspirator, would you use something that has telltale signs or would you use something that could be explained away?

Originally posted by Sublime620

If that was the case, why wasn't it brought up to begin with?

Are there any examples of other building collapses that had "thermite" residue that you can compare with, or are people just making stuff up as they go?

I find it hard to believe that anyone could predict what would fuse with what in a building collapse.

a- Perhaps because the whole thermxte fantasy wasn't conjured up until 2005 by Jones? Hmmm?

b- I would expect there to be none because in the case of a CD, there are no fires. And in the case of building fires/collapses, no one is looking.

c- why is that? Fly ash is a known substance. It happens naturally when "stuff" is burned. It's very common.

Plus the whole source of the "dust" used by Jones is highly suspect. Apparently, he didn't collect it himself. Rather, it was sent to him by a woman that lives "across the street" from the towers, and was taken from her window sill after she returned to her loft. Of course what the fantasy movement doesn't tell us is that her boyfriend was an artist, making metal sculptures right there in the loft!!! Which of course means welding and grinding, etc..... Therefore, the source of the dust can reasonably be considered to be contaminated. Don't you think?

Originally posted by Griff


That is my point. If you were a conspirator, would you use something that has telltale signs or would you use something that could be explained away?

Definitely the second.

But that still doesn't explain away the fact that steel that showed thermxte damage was never flagged at the collection sites.

See, that's the REAL problem with the fantasy movement's belief in all this. Rigorous inspection of the steel is confirmed by the finding of the "melted" beams, which definitely gives them something to sink their little rat teeth into. But then they totally ignore the fact that nothing else was found that would indicate the presence of thermxte.

It doesn't add up that they would find one thing that could undermine their position if everyone was "in on it". Nothing would have been found if that was the case.

Originally posted by Griff

No offense but I didn't see anything in your quote about natural themite and how it could concievably mix at the right amounts to become thermite. Thanks.

No kidding.

Thankfully, he's on the other side of the fence regarding 9/11.

Y'all can have him...........

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
c- why is that? Fly ash is a known substance. It happens naturally when "stuff" is burned. It's very common.

Actually, it happens when "coal" is burned. Haven't ever heard of it other than when coal is burned. But, I could be mistaken.

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
But you already knew that since you had numerous posts in Griff's thread about that very thing.

Funny that you didn't mention that..........

I usually do not like to post about other threads while in 1 thread.

They say a picture speaks a thousand words... These pictures must run into the millions...

The evidence....

European 911 Citizens Jury













I don't think there needs to be a discussion other than how do we get the people that did this into a court???

The following is not thermite related but is 911 related and something I have make all that read this thread aware of....



SPREAD THE WORD!!!

911 was an INSIDE job!!! What will the next False Flag event be??? It seems we are only months if not weeks away from something BIG!!

All the best People,

NeoN HaZe


[edit on 5-5-2008 by Neon Haze]

Originally posted by Griff

Actually, it happens when "coal" is burned. Haven't ever heard of it other than when coal is burned. But, I could be mistaken.

Yes, coal is the most common way.

But garbage incinerators and the apartment heaters (heating oil?) commonly found also produce fly ash. I think I read it was a big driver in NYC to have their incinerators have some sort of particulate reduction measures.

reply to post by Seymour Butz


Like I said, I could be mistaken. That would make sense as oil and coal are close relatives.

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
Is it unreasonable the to think all sorts of "un naturally" occurring chemicals should and would be found in the wreckage?

Yes, it is unreasonable to just assume that because there was a huge mess and pulvarized material that it is conceivable to find the exact makeup of thermite in these spheres. No offence.

None taken; what I expressed myself poorly and you were right to call me out on it.

What I was trying to say is this:
Is it reasonable to assume that sulfur was present in many of the components that made up the WTC(s) before they collapsed (as well as other 'thermite' ingrediants)? And, therefore, is it not reasonable to find these very same chemicals in the wreckage, after the collapse(s)?

Of course that's reasonable and it doesn't need to get any more complicated than that.

This is critical(IMO): the 'truth' movement lies in the absurdly complex. Huge contortions of the actual truth that devolve the discussion into the ridiculously complex. If there was any conspiracy, evidence would have been forth-coming immediately. The thermite discussions have gotten so complex and obtuse because it has to; the obvious, repeatable evidence just isn’t there.

Geez, even I am doing it right now! We are into the finer points of nothing on our way to somewhere when what we need to do is remind ourselves that two 110 ton aircraft slammed into the buildings going hundreds of miles an hour, causing massive, gaping injuries to the buildings, delivered tens of thousands of gallons of kerosene onto the damage they just caused thereby causing fatal harm to the basic structure and ensure collapse.

If Jones is correct, this should be fairly easy, I am assuming. If no one else comes out to agree, then he will expose himself as pseudoscience, and his career will be rubble, just like the towers. And rightfully so at that.

I agree with you. The thing is, this guy has been widely discredited a long, long time ago.

well, it depends on what you consider as "obvious" signs.

Completely reasonable points of contention. I agree with you the average “joe” would not know what to look for. But the NIST investigators would. The ATF would. The FBI would. Some of the active and reserve duty soldiers present would. The port authority police would. The K-9 units would. The many, many, many various police investigators might. Some firefighters defiantly would. The HAZMAT crews would. Your point is valid and well taken. However, in order for your contention to play out then every single person involved in the investigation, clean-up and disposal of the debris either didn’t know what they were doing, didn’t know what they were looking at or every single person there who saw something suspicious was ‘in’ on it.

Is that likely? Or is it more likely that more than six years later, not one person, not one official, not one investigator, not one forensic expert, not one NIST inspector has found a single shred of evidence that indicates “thermite” was used but this Jones character has? Not one.

I am not sure what a "tag" is, but would det chord be need if thermite is being used? And again I don't know, but tens of miles seems like a stretch.

“Tags” are literally that. Incredibly small tags inserted into the chemicals that make up explosives for the very purpose of identifying the explosive. Some of these tags can be (and routinely are) found in the residue when a explosive is used. About Thermite: either hundreds of ‘black ops’ people willing to murder thousands of their own citizens all simltnaously ignited thermite grenades, or det cord was used to set off hundreds, if not thousands of thermite charges.

I think people forget how massive the WTCs were. They were 110 stories. Acres and acres of office space. Huge structures. In order to simultaneously detonate enough thermite to actually bring down the towers you would need a massive wiring job, involving all sorts of high tech gadgets (to time the explosion) and some way to connect all those charges. Enter, det-cord. It is not a stretch to say literal miles of this stuff would be needed. Not one centimeter was found. Ever. By anyone.

continued below


[edit on 5-5-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]

Some interesting facts about thermite, none of which the proponents seem to understand or even care to know:

In the disposal of unserviceable explosive ordnances, incendiary devices are often used to burn through the ordnance casing and to ignite or otherwise destroy the ordnance payload. Thermite devices are often used for this purpose. Thermite devices are also used for unconventional warfare activities. Examples include the destruction of machinery or metallic structures, or the destruction of biological agents or precursors.

Interesting. They said “metallic structures. Obviously, they mean skyscrapers. So, what’s it made of?

Thermite, one of the most common pyrotechnic incendiary agents, is essentially a mixture of powdered ferric oxide and powdered or granular aluminum. When raised to its ignition temperature, an intense reaction occurs whereby the oxygen in the ferric oxide is transferred to the aluminum, producing molten iron, aluminum oxide, and releasing approximately 750 kilocalories per gram. The reaction proceeds as follows:

8Al+3Fe.sub.3 O.sub.4.fwdarw.4Al.sub.2 O.sub.3 +9Fe

This exothermic reaction may produce a temperature of about 4500.degree. F. under favorable conditions. The white-hot molten iron and slag can itself prolong and extend the heating and incendiary action.

Awesome! So it’s violent and very hot. Sounds like a conspiracy to me! How is this stuff typically used?

Current DOD Explosive Ordinance Disposal (EOD) training school identifies the use of the standard AN-M14 incendiary grenade to render disposal of certain explosive ordinances. Unfortunately, the current EOD procedure requires several grenades, as many as 10 grenades, to achieve the desired result and the effect of the grenades in certain applications offers inconsistent effectiveness. Its configuration does not allow sufficient penetration.

Oh. Not looking so good for the conspiracy therorists right now. But wait, there is a newer patent that might resolve this:

A device with greater penetration capabilities is the "Thermite Destructive Device," U.S. Pat. No. 5,698,812 issued Dec. 16, 1997 to Eugene Song. This device was designed to create a forceful jet of molten iron through an opening at the bottom of the containing vessel. One grenade containing approximately 350 g of thermate-TH3 charge is capable of burning through a sheet of 1-inch thick steel plate in about 8 second reaction time. The device utilizes a central core-burning configuration to direct the molten products through an orifice at the bottom of the device.

While this design has merit from a penetration standpoint, and a 350 g charge of thermite could penetrate 1-inch thick steel plate, it is still inadequate to produce reasonable hole size levels. It is only capable of burning a 7/8" diameter hole, which is not sufficient enough for the safe disposal of an unexploded munition. A larger sized hole is needed to prevent a buildup of the internal pressure, and to achieve the successful burnout of the filler explosive. Earlier work has indicated that burning a 3" diameter hole through the outer casing will allow the explosive contained in the bomb to burn without transitioning to a detonation.

Opps. It turns out that thermite is real but a really, really poor choice if your trying to bring down oh……..say a 110 story building. “They” would have needed thousands of these devices to bring the towers down. Thousands. A work around might have been to engineer devices that overcome power by shear size. Strangly, not one person – not one has ever claimed seeing anything like this. Not termite grenades, not one “device”, yet unknown.


Source

[edit on 5-5-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]

reply to post by Neon Haze


Totally incorrect. Sorry to be confrontational but, those pictures do not have any evidence of thermite being used.

Again:

Thermite, one of the most common pyrotechnic incendiary agents, is essentially a mixture of powdered ferric oxide and powdered or granular aluminum. When raised to its ignition temperature, an intense reaction occurs whereby the oxygen in the ferric oxide is transferred to the aluminum, producing molten iron, aluminum oxide, and releasing approximately 750 kilocalories per gram.

Where is the slag that should be abundant?

Meaning, thermite does not make nice, clean cuts as demonstrated in your pictures.

However, iron workers using specialized torches certainly do. Which, ironically, are present in your pictures.

Iron Workers 1
Thermite 0




[edit on 5-5-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]

Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
I think people forget how massive the WTCs were. They were 110 stories. Acres and acres of office space. Huge structures. In order to simultaneously detonate enough thermite to actually bring down the towers you would need a massive wiring job, involving all sorts of high tech gadgets (to time the explosion) and some way to connect all those charges. Enter, det-cord. It is not a stretch to say literal miles of this stuff would be needed. Not one centimeter was found. Ever. By anyone.

And yet, you believe that a-ssymetrical damage and sporadic fires can do the same? You guys love talking yourselves into a corner don't you?

Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
“They” would have needed thousands of these devices to bring the towers down. Thousands.

Again, yet you believe that a few fires and damage can do it?

If the plane impacts and fire can do it alone, why would we need thousands of devices to do the same thing? When we still have the plane damage and fires present.

Think people. Think.

It's like saying 1 + 1 = 2

But 1 + 1 + 1 doesn't = 3.

Sad really.

[edit on 5/5/2008 by Griff]