The Great Library of Alexandria: Was any knowledge saved?

Anyone know/heard any rumors of any scrolls/knowledge was ever saved/taken/recovered from the ruins of the Great Library of Alexandria?

It seems such a shame that the world would just lose all of that information.

I saw a show on the History channel recently about the Great Library. I saw that parts of the library had caught fire, and Saracens raided the library at different times from about 500ad until 1305 when the library was ultimately destroyed in an earthquake.

Apparently, any/all written documents created in the THEN-known world was copied and sent to the Great Library.

Originally posted by livingtorch
Anyone know/heard any rumors of any scrolls/knowledge was ever saved/taken/recovered from the ruins of the Great Library of Alexandria?

Although a lot was lost, all kinds of stuff was saved and recovered and hidden away. You have to understand that the Library wasn't just in one building, and it wasn't destroyed all at the same time. There were losses due to wars, theft, and that kind of thing. You can be sure that the Vatican, as well as some libraries in places like Turkey, have bundles of old Alexandrian documents still waiting for somebody to find and translate. There are also probably hidden caches of documents out in the desert, taken there by people wanting to preserve the texts. A lot of the documents were also copies of documents that we still have around.

Some of it, though, is just gone for good. Time does that to stuff.

I for one believe anything that was not destroyed in Alexandria eventually made its way to the Iraq Museum. This means these items may now be lost forever or in some private collection somewhere.

I always liked the story by Clive Cussler called "Treasure" where the Library of Alexandria was spirited away to be hidden in Roma, Texas.
Just a story mind you ?????

Clive Cussler Novel "Treasure'

Yeah, I'm a huge Clive Cussler fan, and have listened to Treasure on CD.
It was a good story.

Dispersal through copying

There were other libraries in the ancient world, for example:

The libraries of Ugarit, ca 1200 BC
The library of King Ashurbanipal, in Nineveh in the 7th century.
The Villa of the Papyri, in Herculaneum
At Pergamum - second best Hellenistic library after Alexandria
Caesarea Palaestina had an early Christian library.


These libraries contained written material in various mediums (for example, papyri, cuneiform tablets, books). Copies of many such materials did exist in more than one library. For example, the Epic of Gilgamesh, a work written on clay tablets about 2000 B.C. was in the library of King Ashurbanipal, in Nineveh.


It is reasonable to assume a copy of the epic also existed in the Alexandrian library. This was probably the case for many manuscripts. Thus, even after the destruction of the Alexandrian library, copies of many manuscripts are housed elsewhere, in other libraries, in private collections, and still others yet to be discovered. And I agree, as previously stated by another member, the Vatican assuredly has an extensive collection of ancient manuscripts, not to mention the originals. If my memory serves me right, I believe they stated in an interview with Zecharia Sitchin that the oldest book they have is from 4 BC.

I would assume a large majority has vanished through empires and the like wishing to eradicate 'past greatness'.

Hopefully something still exists somewhere..

It is reasonable to assume a copy of the epic also existed in the Alexandrian library.

Hans: Actually no there were commentaries on the materials contained in the Alexandria library and no mention of these stories or materials. By the time the Library was founded the ability to read cuneiform had been lost. The knowledge of Sumer ever existing had been lost by then too.

This was probably the case for many manuscripts. Thus, even after the destruction of the Alexandrian library, copies of many manuscripts are housed elsewhere, in other libraries, in private collections, and still others yet to be discovered. And I agree, as previously stated by another member, the Vatican assuredly has an extensive collection of ancient manuscripts, not to mention the originals.

The Vatican contains early christian materials, they had little interest in unreadable materials from earlier times.

[edit on 5/5/08 by Hanslune]

The loss of the data at the Library of Alexandria set back the development of the human race a few thousand years. We'd have star ships by now or we would have destroyed ourselves already.

Ages before the founding of the Library of Alexandria the first major Library of the world was located at Sippar. The Library of Sippar was also lost in its time.

"Sippar was supposed to be connected with sipru, "a writing."

en.wikipedia.org...

To the OP.

What most people seems to forget when talking about the mysterious collection of books that were lost in the destruction of the Alexandria Library, is that all the books were infact copies of already existing books. You see instead of demanding money from the ships that entered the ports of Egypt in tax or customs, they demanded to have copied all books and maps etc onboard the ships. When this was done these copies were stored in what later became the greatest library in the world. Most of the knowledge contained in the Alexandria library is stilll available today from other sources. What was special with Alexandria Library was that it was so big and contained so many books. However I don't see the mystic connection with the contents of the library, it contained common knowledge mostly and every book inside were mere copies of other books.

[edit on 7/5/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

The new library at Timbuktu has a very high likelihood of storing some of the items. Thousands of texts are being scanned and made available online in a big project they are working there. Of the ancient scrolls there, it is estimated to be over 200,000 in public and private ownership that need conservation right away. The number could be double that its not really known how many are passed down through families.

That is where you will want to look for copies made in the A. L.

Best of luck.

Callimachus wrote the bibliography for the Library its 120 tablets were called the Pinakes

Although he was never made chief librarian, he was responsible for producing the catalogue of all the volumes contained in the Library. His Pinakes (tablets), 120 volumes long, provided the complete and chronologically arranged catalogue of the Library, laying the foundation for later work on the history of Greek literature. As one of the earliest critic-poets, he typifies Hellenistic scholarship

The bibliography of trhe Library of Alexandria

The result was the Pinakes.

The work in its entirety has not survived except for a few fragments, which attest to the following divisions :

rhetoric, law, epic, tragedy, comedy, lyric poetry, history, medicine, mathematics, natural science and miscellanea.


A. Greek :

I Poetry : Homer, Hesiod, Sappho, Anakreon, Simonides, Pindar, Bacchylides, Callymachus, Apollonius, Theocritus, Aratos.

II Drama Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Aristophanes, Menander, Straton (com.).

III Criticism Zenodotus, Aristophanes (of Byz.), Aristarchus (of Samothr.), Aristonicus.

IV Philosophy Pre-Socratics (e.g. Anaxmander, Parmenides, Xenophanes, Heraclitus), Plato, Aristotle, Theophrastus, Zeno, Epicurus, Pyrrhon, Panaetius, Philon (Alex.), Apollonius (of Tyana), Plotinus.

V History Hecataeus, Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Ephorus, Hecataeus (Abdera)…

VI Science Original exploration reports, Eudoxus (Cnid.), Euclid, Aristarchus (Samos), Straton (Lampsacus), Eratosthenes, Megasthenes, Patroclus, Archimedes, Apollonius (Perga), Hipparchus (Nicaea), Cl. Ptolemy, Theon, Hypatia.

VII Medicine Corpus of Hippocrates, Herophilus (anatomy), Erasistratus (veins), Callimachus (med.), Sarapion, Heracleides (Tarentus), Rufus, Apollonius Mys, Galen.

B. Non-Greek :

Egyptian sacred records, Manethon, Egyptian manuals on astronomy, instruments, medicine; Berossos (Babylonia), Persian religion, Hebraic scriptures, Buddhist writings….

The loss of the data at the Library of Alexandria set back the development of the human race a few thousand years. We'd have star ships by now or we would have destroyed ourselves already.

Probably not thousands of years but several hundred perhaps!

The Pinakes was lost at some point in the Byzantine empire. I'm asking as to when the last copy was destroyed on another site.

For more data

Polyeideia: The Iambi of Callimachus and the Archaic Iambic Tradition by Benjamin Acosta-Hughes (2002); Libraries in the Ancient World by Lionel Casson (2001); Callimachus' Book of Iambi by Arnd Kerkhecker (1999); Callimachus and His Critics by Alan Cameron (1995); Kallimachos: The Alexandrian Library and the Origins of Bibliography by Rudolf Blum (1991); Callimachus by John Ferguson (1980); Kallimachos und die Literaturverzeichung bei den Griechen by R. Blum (1977); Da Mimnermo a Callimacho by B. Lavagnini (1976); Kallimachos, ed. by A.D. Skiadas (1972); Callimaco by G. Capovilla (1967); The Iambi of Callimachus by C.M. Dawson (1950); Theokrit und Kallimachos by G. Schlatter (1941); Alexandrian Poetry Under the First Three Ptolemies by Auguste H. Couat (1931); Callimaque et son oeuvre poétique by E. Cahen (1929); Kallimachos und Homer by H. Herter (1929); Hellenistic Poetry by Alfred Körte (1929)


[edit on 7/5/08 by Hanslune]

More info

"The First Librarians
While Demetrius was a convert of Serapis[16] and thus probably an official of the new Greco-Egyptian cult invented by Ptolemy, the Serapeum was not yet built at his death and he is remembered neither as librarian of that institution nor at the Museum. The first recorded Librarian was Zenodotus of Ephesus, holding that post from the end of Ptolemy I's reign until 245 B.C.E. His successor Callimachus of Cyrene was perhaps Alexandria's most famous librarian, creating for the first time a subject catalog in 120,000 scrolls of the Library's holdings, called the Pinakes or Tables.[17] It was by no means comprehensive, but was more like a good subject index on the web. Apollonius of Rhodes, his younger rival and the writer of the notoriously meticulous epic, Argonautica, seems to have been Callimachus' replacement.[18] Eratosthenes of Cyrene, Stoic geographer and mathematician, succeeded him in 235, and compiled his "tetagmenos epi teis megaleis bibliothekeis", the "scheme of the great bookshelves". In 195 Aristophanes, a Homeric scholar of no relation to the comic playwright, took up the position, and updated Callimachus' Pinakes. The last recorded librarian was Aristarchus of Samothrace, the astronomer, who took up the position in 180 B.C.E. and was driven out during dynastic struggles between two Ptolemies. While the library and Museum persisted for many centuries afterwards, from that time onward scholars are simply recorded as Alexandrian, and no Librarians are mentioned by name.[19] "

The Librarians of Alexandria

More papers on the Library

John Tzetzes records several centuries later that Callimachus cataloged 400,000 "mixed" scrolls (probably those that contained more than one chapter, work, or even author, see example in Vatican) and 90,000 "unmixed", plus an additional 42,000 in the Serapeum

John (Johannes) Tzetzes, (c. 1110 – 1180)

Foundation
Demetrius of Phaleron
The first mention we have of the library is in The Letter of Aristeas (ca. 180-145 B.C.E.), a Jewish scholar housed at the Library chronicling the translation of the Septuagint into Greek by seventy-two rabbis. This massive production was commissioned by the Athenian exile Demetrius of Phaleron under his patron, Ptolemy I, Ptolemy Soter.[4] Demetrius himself was a former ruler, no less than a ten-year tyrant of Athens, and a first-generation Peripatetic scholar. That is, he was one of the students of Aristotle along with Theophrastus and Alexander the Great. Demetrius, helped into power in Athens by Alexander's successor Cassander, provided backing for Theophrastus to found a Lyceum devoted to his master's studies and modelled after Plato's Academy. [5] After Ptolemy I Soter, on of Alexander's successful generals, secured the kingship for himself of conquered Egypt, Theophrastus turned down the Pharoah's invitation in 297 B.C.E to tutor Ptolemy's heir, and instead recommended Demetrius, who had recently been driven out from Athens as a result of political fallout from the conflicts of Alexander's successors [Diog. Laert. 5.37].[6]
Precedents for the Museum
According to Aristeas, Demetrius recommended Ptolemy gather a collection of books on kingship and ruling in the style of Plato's philosopher-kings, and furthermore to gather books of all the world's people that he might better understand subjects and trade partners. Demetrius must also have helped inspire the founding of a Museum in Ptolemy's capital, Alexandria, a temple dedicated to the Muses. This was not the first such temple dedicated to the divine patrons of arts and sciences. However, coming as it did in the half-century after the establishment of Plato's Academy, Aristotle's Lyceum, Zeno's Stoa and the school of Epicurus,[7] and located in a rich center of international trade and cultural exchange, the place and time were ripe for such an institution to flower. Scholars were invited there to carry out the Peripatetic activities of observation and deduction in math, medicine, astronomy, and geometry; and most of the western world's discoveries were recorded and debated there for the next 500 years.[8]
The Museum
Archaeologists have not uncovered the foundations of the Museum, although they have excavated portions of the "daughter Library" in the nearby temple of Serapis. From scattered primary sources this much seems relatively clear: it was in the Brucchium (northeast) sector of the city, probably in or adjacent to the palace grounds. It was surrounded by courts, gardens, and a zoological park containing exotic animals from far-flung parts of the Alexandrian empire. According to Strabo [17.1.8], at its heart was a Great Hall and a circular domed dining hall (perhaps Roman?) with an observatory in its upper terrace; classrooms surrounded it. This is very similar to the layout of the Serapeum, which was begun by Ptolemy II Philadelphus and completed by his son.[9] An estimated 30-50 scholars were probably permanently housed there, probably fed and funded first by the royal family, and later, according to an early Roman papyrus, by public money.[10]

The Stacks
The physical shelves of the Library may have been in one of the outlying lecture halls or in the garden, or it may have been housed in the Great Hall. They consisted of pigeonholes or racks for the scrolls, the best of which were wrapped in linen or leather jackets. Parchment skins--vellum-- came into vogue after Alexandria stopped exporting papyrus in an attempt to strangle its younger rival library, set up by the Seleucids in Pergamon. In Roman times, manuscripts started to be written in codex (book) form, and began to be stored in wooden chests called armaria .[11]
Development of the Library
The Septuagint
Aristeas, writing 100 years after the library's inception, records that Ptolemy I handed over to Demetrius the job of gathering books and scrolls, as well as letting him supervise a massive effort to translate other cultures' works into Greek. This process began with the translation of the Septuagint, the Old Testament, into Greek, for which project Ptolemy hired and housed 72 rabbis at Demetrius' suggestion. [Letter of Aristeas 9-10]. [12]
Acquisition of Books
At the time of Demetrius, Greek libraries were usually collections of manuscripts by private individuals, such as Aristotle's library of his own and other works. Egypt's temples often had shelves containing an assortment of religious and official texts, as did certain Museums in the Greek world. It was Ptolemy I's great ambition to possess all known world literature[13] that pushed these idiosyncratic collections-- the web sites of the ancient world-- into the realm of a true library. John Tzetzes records several centuries later that Callimachus cataloged 400,000 "mixed" scrolls (probably those that contained more than one chapter, work, or even author, see example in Vatican) and 90,000 "unmixed", plus an additional 42,000 in the Serapeum.[14] Ptolemy's successors' methods for achieving his goal were certainly unique. Ptolemy III wrote a letter "to all the world's sovereigns" asking to borrow their books [Galen 17.1 Kühn p. 601ff][15], When Athens lent him the texts to Euripides, Aeschylus, and Sophocles, he had them copied, returned the copies, and kept the originals. Supposedly, all ships that stopped in the port of Alexandria were searched for books which were given them same treatment, thus the term "ship libraries" for the collection housed in the Museum. This unorthodox procedure did at least inspire the first systematic work in emendation and collation of classical texts without which none of the authors would have survived.
The First Librarians
While Demetrius was a convert of Serapis[16] and thus probably an official of the new Greco-Egyptian cult invented by Ptolemy, the Serapeum was not yet built at his death and he is remembered neither as librarian of that institution nor at the Museum. The first recorded Librarian was Zenodotus of Ephesus, holding that post from the end of Ptolemy I's reign until 245 B.C.E. His successor Callimachus of Cyrene was perhaps Alexandria's most famous librarian, creating for the first time a subject catalog in 120,000 scrolls of the Library's holdings, called the Pinakes or Tables.[17] It was by no means comprehensive, but was more like a good subject index on the web. Apollonius of Rhodes, his younger rival and the writer of the notoriously meticulous epic, Argonautica, seems to have been Callimachus' replacement.[18] Eratosthenes of Cyrene, Stoic geographer and mathematician, succeeded him in 235, and compiled his "tetagmenos epi teis megaleis bibliothekeis", the "scheme of the great bookshelves". In 195 Aristophanes, a Homeric scholar of no relation to the comic playwright, took up the position, and updated Callimachus' Pinakes. The last recorded librarian was Aristarchus of Samothrace, the astronomer, who took up the position in 180 B.C.E. and was driven out during dynastic struggles between two Ptolemies. While the library and Museum persisted for many centuries afterwards, from that time onward scholars are simply recorded as Alexandrian, and no Librarians are mentioned by name.[19]

Organization
While it is doubtful the library had a perfectly systematic organization, but rather tended to house new chests and shelves of papyri in the groups in which they were acquired, the Alexandrians from Callimachus onwards tried to keep track of their holdings via a subject catalog. In this they followed Aristotle's divisions of knowledge, or at least his style of breaking up what had previously fallen under the umbrella of "philosophy" into subdivisions of observational and deductive sciences. Since this paper is an overview of the work and scholarship carried out at Alexandria, I will adhere to the subject divisions first set forth by Callimachus in his Pinakes, of mathematics, medicine, astronomy, and geometry, as well as philology. I have added the Aristotelian category of mechanics for some of the applied science which grew out of Alexandrian studies.
Mathematics
Alexandrian mathematicians concerned themselves for the most part with geometry, but we know of some researches specific to number theory. Prime numbers were a source of fascination from the time of the Pythagoreans onwards. Eratosthenes the Librarian dabbled in numbers along with everything else, and is reported to have invented the "sieve", a method for finding new ones.[20] Euclid also was known to have studied this tricky subject.
Eudoxis of Cnidus (see biography), Euclid's pupil, probably worked out of Alexandria, and is known for developing an early method of integration, studied the uses of proportions for problem solving, and contributed various formulas for measuring three dimensional figures. Pappus (See biography), a fourth century A.D. scholar, was one of the last of the Greek mathematicians and concentrated on large numbers and constructions in semicircles (See Vatican manuscript), and he was also an important transmitter into European culture of astrology gleaned from eastern sources.[21] Theon and his daughter Hypatia also continued work in astronomy, geometry, and mathematics, commenting on their predecessors, but none of their works survive.

Astronomy
Astronomy was not merely the projection of three-dimensional geometry into a fourth, time, although this is how many Greek scientists classified it. The movements of the stars and sun were essential for determining terrestrial positions, since they provided universal points of reference. In Egypt, this was particularly vital for property rights, because the yearly inundation often altered physical landmarks and boundaries between fields. For Alexandria, whose lifeblood was export of grain and papyrus to the rest of the Mediterranean, developments in astronomy allowed sailors to do away with consultation of oracles, and to risk year-round navigation out of sight of the coast.[22] Earlier Greek astronomers had concentrated on theoretical models of the universe; Alexandrians now took up the task of detailed observations and mathematical systems to develop and buttress existing ideas.
Maps of Heaven
Eratosthenes, the versatile third librarian, amassed a poetic catalog of 44 constellations complete with background myths, as well as a list of 475 fixed stars.[23] Hipparchus was credited with inventing longitude and latitude, importing the 360-degree circular system from Babylonia, calculating the length of a year within six minutes accuracy, amassing sky-chart of constellations and stars, and speculated that stars might have both births and deaths.[24]
Schemes of the Universe
Aristarchus applied Alexandrian trigonometry to estimate the distances and sizes of the sun and moon, and also postulated a heliocentric universe (biography). A fellow Museum scholar, the Stoic Cleanthus, accused him of blatant impiety.[25] Hipparchus of Bithynia, during the reign of Ptolemy VII, discovered and measured the procession of the equinoxes, the size and trajectory of the sun, and the moon's path.[26] 300 years later Ptolemy (no known relation to royalty, see biography) worked out mathematically his elegant system of epicycles to support the geocentric, Aristotelian view,[27] and wrote a treatise on astrology, both of which were to become the medieval paradigm.[28] (See Vatican manuscript on astronomy and exhibit on geography.)
Geometry
The Alexandrians compiled and set down many of the geometric principles of earlier Greek mathematicians, and also had access to Babylonian and Egyptian knowledge on that subject. This is one of the areas in which the Museum excelled, producing its share of great geometers, right from its inception. Demetrius of Phaleron is said to have invited the scholar Euclid (biography) to Alexandria, and his Elements are well-known to be the foundation of geometry for many centuries. [29] His successors, notably Apollonius of the second century B.C.E., carried on his research in conics (Vatican manuscript, biography), as did Hipparchus in the second century A.D. Archimedes (biography)is credited with the discovery of pi.[30]

Eratosthenes and Spherical Geometry: Calculating the Earth's circumference
The third librarian of Alexandria, Eratosthenes (275-194 B.C.E), calculated the circumference of the earth to within 1%, based on the measured distance from Aswan to Alexandria and the fraction of the whole arc determined by differing shadow-lengths at noon in those two locations. He further suggested that the seas were connected, that Africa might be circumnavigated, and that "India could be reached by sailing westward from Spain." Finally, probably drawing on Egyptian and Near Eastern observations, he deduced the length of the year to 365 1/4 days and first suggested the idea of adding a "leap day" every four years.[31]
Mechanics: Applied Science
Archimedes (see biography) was one of the early Alexandria-affiliated scholars to apply geometers' and astronomers' theories of motion to mechanical devices. Among his discoveries were the lever and-- as an extension of the same principle-- the "Archimedes screw," a handcranked device for lifting water.[32] He also figures in the tale of the scientist arising from his tub with the cry of "Eureka" after discovering that water is displaced by physical objects immersed in it.[33]
Hydraulics was an Alexandria-born science which was the principle behind Hero's Pneumatics, a long work detailing many machines and "robots" simulating human actions. The distinction between practical and fanciful probably did not occur to him in his thought-experiments, which included statues that poured libations, mixed drinks, drank, and sang (via compressed air). He also invented a windmill-driven pipe organ, a steam boiler which was later adapted for Roman baths, a self-trimming lamp, and the candelaria, in which the heat of candle-flames caused a hoop from which were suspended small figures to spin.[34] His sometimes whimsical application of the infant sciences are reminiscent of the modern Rube Goldberg's "inventions" during the technological revolution of this century.

Medicine
The study of anatomy, tracing its roots to Aristotle (see Andrea's case study on Aristotelian anatomy), was conducted extensively by many Alexandrians, who may have taken advantage both of the zoological gardens for animal specimens, and Egyptian burial practices and craft for human anatomy. One of its first scholars, Herophilus, both collected and compiled the Hippocratic corpus, and embarked on studies of his own. He first distinguished the brain and nervous system as a unit, as well as the function of the heart, the circulation of blood, and probably several other anatomical features. His successor Eristratos concentrated on the digestive system and the effects of nutrition, and postulated that nutrition as well as nerves and brain influenced mental diseases. Finally, in the second century A.D., Galen drew upon Alexandria's vast researches and his own investigations to compile fifteen books on anatomy and the art of medicine.[35] (See Vatican manuscript).

Conclusion

The Museum (Library) of Alexandria was founded at a unique place and time which allowed its scholars to draw on the deductive techniques of Aristotle and Greek thought, in order to apply these methods to the knowledges of Greece, Egypt, Macedonia, Babylonia, and beyond. The location of Alexandria as a center of trade, and in particular as the major exporter of writing material, offered vast opportunities for the amassing of information from different cultures and schools of thought. Its scholars' deliberate efforts to compile and critically analyze the knowledge of their day allowed for the first systematic, long-term research by dedicated specialists in the new fields of science suggested by Aristotle and Callimachus. Whole new disciplines, such as grammar, manuscript preservation, and trigonometry were established. Moreover, the fortuitious collection of documents in an Egyptian city allowed the transmission and translation of vital classical texts into Arabic and Hebrew, where they might be preserved long after copies were lost during the Middle Ages in Europe. Alexandria and its cousins, the Lyceum, Academy, and the younger Pergamon library, were probably the prototypes both for the medieval monastery and universities. While modern scholars often lament the amount of information lost through the centuries since the Museum's fall, an amazing number of Alexandrian discoveries and theories, especially in mathematics and geometry, still provide the groundwork for modern research in these fields. Finally, the methods of research, study, and information storage and organization developed in the Library are much the same as those used today, but just as the medium of linear scrolls gave way to books in its halls, we now are watching the transformation from books to multilayered documents in the electronic medium.

Did you know that the Egyptian ban on export of papyrus to Greece paved the way for the invention of parchment? Well now you know.

Thanks NCM for that piece of trivia

It wasn't good news for the sheep involved thou...

Originally posted by Hanslune
Thanks NCM for that piece of trivia

It wasn't good news for the sheep involved thou...

Hehe, no I'm afraid they suffered great losses. It's quite interesting to see how fast it happened too. Within a short time the Greeks invented parchment, and the city that gave name to this invention was Pergamon, a town mentioned in the Bible.