The very real conspiracy against Freemasonry

OK guys, that's EVERYONE, let's continue the topic please, "The very real conspiracy against Freemasonry".

Dangit... go away for a day and a half and now I cannot get my Avatar evaluated.

Considering the proliferation of sites where one supports the next then next and so on it could be argued that there is a conspiracy to put Masons in a bad light worse than after the Morgan affair.

The Masons were some of the strongest voices that helped create the United States of America. It is cncievable that there is an organization that wants to control the US and once they make enough moves to be obvious that even Masons will realize they must work to stop thsi organization. With the organization of Masonry there is a bond and union that would be strong enough to stand against what could come. With the Masons standing against Tyrrany as they did 250 or so years ago the common man would have someone to stand up with. BUT if Masonry is discredited through these websites and anti-mason books where would the leadership against tyrrany be? Who would follow the Masons through the fire to stop the tyranny if the Masons were believed to be part of the Tyranny?

Now being an avid Sci-Fi fan I could probably write a book like Revolt in 2100 AD. As a RPG player I have a very broad imagination.

As someone who even at 10 years old wrote editorials against Gun Control I am someone who rattles the cage Democracy is in and questions the status quo. I am a Mason and I think it high time the Masons started talking about what is happening again outside our walls. Too long we have been quiet and boring and just like the US before WWII our policies of isolationism are going to be our downfall. Maybe I am radical in my thinking but I do not think I am the only one.

Personally the only reason I have not gone past Royal Arch on the York Rite is that I am focusing on Blue Lodge and finding ways to improve it.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

In your quote is the mention of masons admitting to "beyond 33 degrees masonry", a supersecret order waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above the highest peak of the mountain.

Id be interested to know exactly which masons make such claims.

OTO Masons are above 33rd degree. 85th to 90th degree, like Aliester Crowley. But the Masons here don't think Crowley was a Mason or OTO.

Originally posted by intrepid
I can arrange to set this up. We have to agree on a topic though. How about, "Masonry is a 2 level organization and it's upper workings are unknown to regular Masons."

Masonry is a multi-level organization set-up in a pyramid structure where the few and the top dictate/control the many at the bottom. I've provided multiple sources from 33rd degree Masons and researchers proving this point. So no I don't feel the need to debate this topic.

The entire thing feels like I'm at high-school. MasonicLight just turned on the beatbox, did a breakdance, and now his buddies are laughing like "You Got Served." He's like, "I Challenge you Freight, to a head-to-head debate!"

You know, my problem isn't just with the Masons, I'm against Skull and Bones, Bohemian Grove, Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg, CFR and other societies too. If I'm going to spend my time engaging in one on one debate, let's talk about the value of secret societies in general.

Secret Societies, Good for Democracy?

Masonry: Help or Hindrance to Society?

Something like this seems more appropriate.

Originally posted by freight tomsen
OTO Masons are above 33rd degree. 85th to 90th degree, like Aliester Crowley. But the Masons here don't think Crowley was a Mason or OTO.

I am beginning to think you are just lieing. I understand some times we say things that are not true due to an innocent lack of knowledge - however - you, sir, are blatantly lieing about things that you could easily find out. That is, if you weren't here as a disinformation agent in the conspiracy against masonry.

The problem with this particular lie is that if you look at the OTO page of membership we see that there is no requirement that one be a mason in order to join. If OTO is "above the 33rd degree" why is it that you dont have to be a mason to join? Wait - I KNOW! Because there is no connection between OTO and masonry, except that Crowley was a member of a clandestine lodge which became regular after his death. Yet another lie vanquished.

Originally posted by freight tomsen
Masonry is a multi-level organization set-up in a pyramid structure where the few and the top dictate/control the many at the bottom. I've provided multiple sources from 33rd degree Masons and researchers proving this point. So no I don't feel the need to debate this topic.

A lie told often enough does not make it the truth. You have provided no proof, nor valid sources. What you have done is cited people who are lying. Lies, lies, and more lies. You've also cited conspiracy theory authors who are out their hawking their wares - much like you are - however, they (as usual) don't actually cite any sources. Just because you proclaim something to be true, does not mean it is.

Originally posted by freight tomsen
The entire thing feels like I'm at high-school.

The feeling is mutual, at least from my perspective. I feel like we're all sitting in class and despite the teacher, the smart kids, and even the people who normally don't care providing you evidence and showing you how you are lying, your that one guy who just refuses to listen to reality.

Originally posted by LightinDarkness

Originally posted by freight tomsen
Masonry is a multi-level organization set-up in a pyramid structure where the few and the top dictate/control the many at the bottom. I've provided multiple sources from 33rd degree Masons and researchers proving this point. So no I don't feel the need to debate this topic.

A lie told often enough does not make it the truth. You have provided no proof, nor valid sources. What you have done is cited people who are lying. Lies, lies, and more lies. You've also cited conspiracy theory authors who are out their hawking their wares - much like you are - however, they (as usual) don't actually cite any sources. Just because you proclaim something to be true, does not mean it is.

Exactly. No matter how many times you Masons lie, lie, lie it looks no more like truth to me or the majority of other ATSers with keen discernment. You have cited NO sources and just said that mine aren't valid. I provided sources from two 33rd degree Masons and Jim Marrs' a respected researcher on ATS. I provided sources from Hall and Pike, high-level members of your organization repeating what I've said. I also provided a source of a non-Mason saying the same thing.

You say I haven't provided "proof, nor valid sources." You say all I've done "is cited people who are lying." Why should I assume those three published authors were lying and you're telling the truth? From where do you command this supposed superiority to me and these other authors? Calling us all liars when you are clearly lying yourself.

Originally posted by freight tomsen
Exactly. No matter how many times you Masons lie, lie, lie it looks no more like truth to me or the majority of other ATSers with keen discernment.

I have exposed you for at least one lie, and while I could look back and expose all of them, we'll go one at a time. I want you to expose just one lie that any mason has made on this forum. Just one. And by the way, the rules of logic apply to this: to prove that I am lieing, your source either needs to be a direct authoritative source to the matter at hand (in this case, a masonic source) or a peer reviewed source.

You can quote from conspiracy websites and blogs and even books, and it still doesnt make up for the fact that your lieing. This is because anyone can create a website or a blog, or a book. There have been lots of books that were lies and made up to sell, and those are mostly the types of books you are quoting from.

To disprove your previous lie about connections between the OTO and masonry, I cited a direct authoritative source - the OTO itself, and as the actual OTO body it can speak for itself. Do the same. You won't be able to. What you will attempt to do is quote conspiracy blogs, websites, or books. Alternatively you will pull out the tried and true conspiracy theorist quotes from Pike or others, but before you do - that would be another failure - as such authors ARE NOT AUTHORITATIVE. You could, however, quote directly from the Scottish Rite Supreme Council or any regular Grand Lodge website.

Your house of cards is falling down.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


Similarly, he recently quoted a JFK speech which the Kennedy Library explicitly states never happened.

So who are we supposed to believe? The dozen or so "researchers" who offer that one sentence quote, yet can't produce the text of the rest of the speech? Or the official archive of all of JFK's memoirs that says such a speech never happened and that JFK never uttered those words?

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
[You could, however, quote directly from the Scottish Rite Supreme Council or any regular Grand Lodge website.

Keeping him to some mighty impartial sources, aren't you?

Your house of cards is falling down.

Not as long as you only accept sources that agree with you...

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Keeping him to some mighty impartial sources, aren't you?

And this is why you should read the entire post. Else you wouldn't say things like that.

I offered two sources:

(1) Peer reviewed: there are millions of peer reviewed sources, and almost none of them are masonic - infact I can't think of one that IS masonic.
(2) Direct authoritative sources: When your making up conspiracy theories ABOUT an organization, the only way (beyond peer reviewed) to led credence to your argument is to uses authoritative sources from the organization. This is a problem in masonry because there are almost no authoritative sources, except the grand lodges or the auxiliary bodies themselves.

If anyone was interested in proving who was lying, the reason for using these sources is clear and ARE very impartial. Do you notice how I just debunked his lie about the relationship between the OTO and masonry with a quote from the OTO website itself? Direct authoritative source.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Not as long as you only accept sources that agree with you...

Thats pretty funny, because almost nothing the OTO website says do I agree with and yet I used it to prove a lie. Also, the irony is amazing since the person the post was directed at has only, in his entire anti-masonic history of posts, quoted sources that agree with him =) And by the way? Seeing as how there are millions of peer reviewed sources, it would be amazing if they all agreed with me

reply to post by JoshNorton


Well Josh, you know what that means don't you? That its just masonic conspiracy.

Thats the lovely thing about anti-masons. When the cold hard truth stares at them, they just call the truth a masonic conspiracy. I've noticed it works like this:

Anti-Mason makes X claim.
X claim is shown to be wrong using source Y.
Anti-Mason says X claim is right, because source Y is subject of a masonic conspiracy.

When the anti's think in circular logic like that, its no wonder they always think they've got it figured out. Excellent post you linked to though, the response was quite funny Of course as you know, JFK's speech had nothing to do with masonry. But as I said, anti's dont let facts get in the way...

Originally posted by LightinDarkness

I have exposed you for at least one lie, and while I could look back and expose all of them, we'll go one at a time. I want you to expose just one lie that any mason has made on this forum. Just one.

Here's the Delphi technique again. "I want you to expose just one lie that any mason has made on this forum. Just one."

Please folks, click on my post history here in the Secret Societies forum and you will see that I've exposed countless lies. These Masons are only on here to lie. You don't see the 4H club here do you? You don't see the 4Hers here because no one suspects them of being part of a global conspiracy.

The Masons are here to defend their corrupt organization from conspiracy researchers. There is a whole "bury brigade" of them here every single day without fail, signing in spending multiple hours just trying to counter our claims. As I said, if our claims were unsubstantiated (as all the Masons say) then it would be completely unnecessary for them to come here and daily defend themselves. If my claims are unsubstantiated and made up, what are you all so defensive and worried about? Go enjoy lodge life! Get off your computers and prove me wrong by not conspiring for world government under the UN!

It's just a coincidence that the UN logo is the world divided into 33 sections right, like the 33 degrees of Masonry. It's also coincidence that it would be Blue, like the Blue Lodge and the world is being enveloped in Oak Leaves, the ancient Secret Society/Mystery School symbol.

[edit on 3-5-2008 by freight tomsen]

Originally posted by freight tomsen
Here's the Delphi technique again. "I want you to expose just one lie that any mason has made on this forum. Just one."

Freight, you have got to google these terms before you use them. Its really becoming hilarious. This is your obsfucation tactic once more:

Originally posted by freight tomsen
Please folks, click on my post history here in the Secret Societies forum and you will see that I've exposed countless lies. These Masons are only on here to lie. You don't see the 4H club here do you? You don't see the 4Hers here because no one suspects them of being part of a global conspiracy.

Aww, shucks, Freight doesn't want to take the challenge. Because then he'd be exposed even more than he already is. Freight, quoting conspiracy blogs, youtube, and conspiracy authors does not equal exposing lies. That equals you being deceptive and trying to hide the truth. I still await for you to expose one lie, told by any mason here. Just one. It should be easy, if its as bad as you say it is. Do it. I know you cant though, because your to busy trying to cover your tracks as I and others expose you.

Trust me, if Masons were not around, I'm sure you'd turn to the 4H club to find your scapegoat. That is, after all, what you are doing. You are desperately trying to make sense of our complex world, and you are doing it through the age old fallacy of creating a scapegoat. Masonry is your target currently, but it would change if masonry werent around.

Originally posted by freight tomsen
The Masons are here to defend their corrupt organization from conspiracy researchers. There is a whole "bury brigade" of them here every single day without fail, signing in spending multiple hours just trying to counter our claims. As I said, if our claims were unsubstantiated (as all the Masons say) then it would be completely unnecessary for them to come here and daily defend themselves. If my claims are unsubstantiated and made up, what are you all so defensive and worried about? Go enjoy lodge life! Get off your computers and prove me wrong by not conspiring for world government under the UN!

We've been over this, but we'll do it once more: just because you lie and want the lie to be true, does not make it true. You can sit here and make up all of this, but until you provide unbiased sources no one will take you seriously. Do explain how everyone who disagrees with you consists of both masons and non-masons? How could it be?

Your circular logic was previously exposed. Stop trying to use it, because you fail in doing so.

I have claimed you were a NWO disinformation agent, you claimed you weren't. If my claims were made up, what are you so defensive and worried about? Get off your computer and prove your not conspiring for the NWO! (You see, your logic comes back to get you - AGAIN).

Originally posted by freight tomsen
The Masons are here to defend their corrupt organization from conspiracy researchers. There is a whole "bury brigade" of them here every single day without fail, signing in spending multiple hours just trying to counter our claims.

You are attacking something that is important to them, of course they are going to defend themselves and freemasonry. If you were to utilise the search function you will see that they have consisently answered questions and provided sources to any number of weird and wonderful enquiries. That they are often bored with claims such as yours that only access material that has been debunked, misquoted, taken out of context or plain invented - it is because they have been there done that. Again and again and again. Patience can become exhausted.

The repetition of this cycle of the same argument, or variations there of, popping up time and time again has practically destroyed any intelligent or even genial discussion on this board. Denying ignorance has been thrown out in favour of pandering to the mainstream conspiracy theories.

You appear to be intelligent and yet seem to possess no opinion that is your own. Why are you so convinced that Freemasonry is what these people tell you it is? The difference between you and the majority of the masons who frequent these boards is that they can converse on a number of subjects, unlike you. You posts though indicate an accute and educated mind. Why do you rely on others for an opinion?

Use the search function, have a little read. Inform yourself, make your self aware of all sides of the argument. Surely you have nothing to fear from expanding your mind to the depth of this debate. You indicate an intelligence that is capable of processing complex information. Despite your obvious intelligence your sources are shallow and unqualified. By using the search function to see the many excellent discussions that have taken place on this board in the past, which have revealed some very interesting insights into Freemasonry and other, more secret societies.

If I was of a suspicious mind set, and I am, I would wager that you don't actually believe any of the information that you have posted. If you believed in it you would have no compunction in looking a little further beyond the obvious to find your sources. If it was important to you and you felt as passionately as you attempt to imply, you would do everything in your power to disprove the claims, you would apply yourself to listening to both sides of the argument, instead of simply repeating yours.

But then again, maybe your just lazy...

I won't isolate you in this, there are Masons on this board who struggle to understand the viewpoint of the conspiracists. This should, ideally be a mutual exploration of knowledge...it seldom is and it is the hostility and reactionism from both sides that has at times, rendered this board unbearable for the rest of us. We can't like everyone, but I was brought up not to call people liars, I find it a good rule of thumb on ATS. And anyway, liars always prove themselves.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


I was hard on anti-masons in this thread...but your stream of posts on various threads since yesterday, make me look tame.

Is it necessary to be quite this harsh?

reply to post by Skyfloating


Its not harsh at all. I - and you for that matter - have in recent days been accused of being a satanist, "supporter of the gay movement" (whatever that means), a rapist, a paid disinformation agent, and all other number of things. I am responding to the anti-mason posts point by point. About as harsh I have been is using the word "lie" - which, when we tell things that are not true, those are lies. I think thats pretty tame compared to being called all number of things. Its also being truthful, where as calling freemasons satanists is not being truthful.

There is a conspiracy against masons to deflect from whats really going on - to take peoples attention from the real troubles in this world. I will respond to those who claim that I - and every other mason - are a part of some satanic cult for doing charity work and planning pancake breakfasts.


[edit on 3-5-2008 by LightinDarkness]

reply to post by LightinDarkness


well, seen that way I guess you have a point. Still, opposing force with force has not made them re-consider their bizzare accusiations.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by LightinDarkness

 

well, seen that way I guess you have a point. Still, opposing force with force has not made them re-consider their bizzare accusiations.

Nor will it I suspect. I guess what has me scratching my head is whether or not the cage match Intrepid proposed is a go or not. Certainly, it should provide the right venue for an anti-Mason well-versed and well-cited to be able to wipe the floor with Masonry (if the bravado's to be taken at face value).

One of the debates has already begun:


First Debate



Now...where´s the MasonicLight vs. FreightTomsen debate?