In France, Prisons Filled With Muslims

reply to post by Merigold


Thanks very much I get annoyed because it's so very easy to equate correlation with causation: "there are more brown/poor/whatever people in prison, therefor brown/poor/whatever people are criminals". There's so much more going on in the world we can't look at in such simplistic terms.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


Now we enter into a much more interesting area, and an area much harder to figure out. That's never stopped me from opening my mouth before, so I'll continue Thanks for being patient with me

Black students at Oxford and Cambridge doesn't mean anything other than it's not impossible for black students to get into Oxford or Cambridge. They are not representative of their race, as race is nothing but a superficial difference. Their upbringing and environment have much more of a part to play in this. I'm not being dismissive of your point - it is valid, I just think I need to go a bit deeper to explain why that doesn't mean as much as it might appear.

Culture is a characteristic we are all born without, yet we adopt from an early age by exposure to our parents and their lives. I'm not talking about "black culture", but merely the collective rules and traditions passed from one generation to the next. The first black immigrants didn't get a good start, and that fact is still weighing deeply on the black population. Not all black people are still suffering from it, but many are. Those poor immigrants raised their kids in poverty, and being raised in poverty can preclude one from having an education for the simple fact that it's very difficult to study when you don't have electricity, or when your parent/s is/are afflicted by drink/drugs/crime. Poverty, and religion for that matter, are passed on from one generation to the next, and it takes unusual circumstances for a person to break free from either. In the case of poverty, something as seemingly-simple as a decent role-model, can cause a person to reach higher for themselves. Without that influence many people simply don't feel they can work for a harder life. Imagine if all you hear all your life, from people in your own family and community, that it's hopeless to try to improve yourself. Unless you get broken free from this cycle, chances are your kids are going to hear the exact same thing. I'm not blaming black people - it's endemic within humanity - we listen to our parents when maybe we shouldn't.

Poor people don't necessarily have the choice of the two paths. It would be great if they did, as I doubt anyone would choose to be poor and uneducated. The problem is many don't realise they have a choice, and even if they did, their circumstances might stop them from being able to attain the education they need to further themselves and their future families.

It's similar to a victim mentality, except to call it that would be rather insensitive, as it's not some misguided sense of entitlement, but quite the opposite - many poor folks, of all colours, have simply dropped off the ladder because they didn't know it was there.

Let's not underestimate the power of ignorance.

I'm sorry if that post was all over the place. I've got a lot to say on the subject, and I can't write for squat

I did a fair bit of reading about this during the paris riots, and whilst I accept that the view from the ghetto is likely to be (at the very least) one sided, it may shed some light on why people there feel as they do.

Many french immigrants, especially islamic, feel that they are shoved to one side, in ghetto's in extremely poor area's just to get them out of the way.
They feel that they cannot get jobs because of their address and because of their religion.

The area's where they live lack the social ameneties taken for granted in other parts of city's.

They have access to only poor healthcare, poor educational facilities and poor policing.

They feel that because they are migrants, they are treated badly - and are only there as a sop to certain requirements of international and european law.

Now I'm not saying they are right, but this is how they feel they are being treated.

At the same time, france has a very visible policy of putting the needs of its citizens first, above all else, sometimes to the detriment of others - I don't see anything wrong with this, as long as it's not taken to extremes, like the agricultural issues which surround the EU.

IMO there is fault on both sides here - but neither locking people up, nor riotting is the answer.

I believe that the answer lies in better integration, rather than the segregation which we see at the moment.

It's all very well some people saying they don't WANT to integrate, but if they are never given the chance, how can they, because the proliferation of ghetto societies outside those of mainstream societies is what creates division more than anything else.

reply to post by dave420


Hell Dave, you made me regret putting you on my foes list! In fact, I think I misjudged you from your posts in my thread about the EU referendum. I'll rectify that mistake here and now by taking you off my foes list. Sorry for getting off on the wrong foot!

I think you raise a couple of very important issues that resonate with me.

The first is that there is a cycle of deprivation in the black community, but I put this down to being endemic. There is no external factor pushing black/ muslim people to underperform. However there may well be psychological issues surrounding some of these groups. Why do black children not do as well at school? Is their lack of attainment at school responsible for a lapse into criminality, or is it their immediate environment?

Many respected minds have said that it is a combination of a multitude of factors. The children are exposed to the gang cultures in their immediate surroundings (true of muslims in French ghettos). This added to a lack of male role models leads to the idolisation of the gang figures, who are much richer than the law abiding factions of the same surroundings. The kids are drawn into the gangster style of life, and flunk school. They are drawn to crime and away from books.

I suppose my views of people having a choice of two paths to walk are ultimately flawed because they are idealistic and in practice it is not so clear. Children exposed to negative role models will, understandably, go on to do similar things in life.

My next segue is into solutions. How can this issue be resolved?

Could we lock up all gang members?

Could we form a special institution to tackle these issues?

Im not at all sure what we, as outsiders (presumably), can do. I find solace in the fact that there are some black and muslim pupils at reputed universities because it is evidence that progress is being made.

Unfortunately, as you pointed out, these pupils are often exceptions to the norm. One wonders why there are not more such pupils at institutions. I have always been guilty of holding a high bar, Im afraid. I have always thought that if it is possible for a few, it is possible for the many if they want it enough.

Perhaps these events will continue until the groups in question tackle the problem head on and choose to better their own condition?

Originally posted by Alxandro
Wow, I never expected France to have any prisons whatsoever.
From everything that was ever reported and everything I've heard before I, thought France had a Utopian society.

Actually it's close...IF you're French, if you aren't then things can be a bit tough..the French are very proud of their country and their language -people who don't integrate, often don't lead the most uptopian of lives..

Nobody imprisons people because they are poor. To say so is misleading and outright wrong. People are imprisoned because they break laws. Rich or poor, everyone has a choice to obey or disobey the law. Being poor does not give one a free ride to become an outlaw. Is the OP related to Jesse James or Robin Hood? Poor people have more choices than selling drugs and stealing. I was homeless at one time. I got a job and worked to afford an apartment. Later I bought a motorcycle, then a car. Then came cameras, guitars, and stereo gear. This opportunity is available to anyone in America. I cannot speak for other countries like France, but I assume it is the same story there.

The first is that there is a cycle of deprivation in the black community, but I put this down to being endemic. There is no external factor pushing black/ muslim people to underperform. However there may well be psychological issues surrounding some of these groups. Why do black children not do as well at school? Is their lack of attainment at school responsible for a lapse into criminality, or is it their immediate environment?

Many respected minds have said that it is a combination of a multitude of factors. The children are exposed to the gang cultures in their immediate surroundings (true of muslims in French ghettos). This added to a lack of male role models leads to the idolisation of the gang figures, who are much richer than the law abiding factions of the same surroundings. The kids are drawn into the gangster style of life, and flunk school. They are drawn to crime and away from books.

I suppose my views of people having a choice of two paths to walk are ultimately flawed because they are idealistic and in practice it is not so clear. Children exposed to negative role models will, understandably, go on to do similar things in life.

My next segue is into solutions. How can this issue be resolved?

Could we lock up all gang members?

Locking them up will do no good. Kids will still look up to them as somebody to emulate. We need to kill them so they are not a drain on society. Kids will emulate gangsters as long as there are gangsters around for them to emulate. Gangsters do nothing for society. There is no reason to keep them around. They get your children addicted to drugs, then force them into prostitution and crime in order to pay for the drugs. The fault is not with greater society. The fault lies with minorities who would rather take the gangster way out than be productive. As long as greater society panders to the minorities, the minorities will feel entitled. It is time for minorities to step up to the plate and quit looking for the easy way out. Being poor does not give one the right to be an ***hole. Stop making excuses for people whose life is nothing but one excuse after another. Make them take responsibility for their actions. Although mandatory sterilization for anyone convicted of a felony crime would go a long way to containing the problem.

reply to post by Master_Wii


I would say it lies more with the Muslim society in France, which happens to be very poor. Making excuses for them does not solve the problem, only worsens it. It's no different then making excuses for those in America or other developed countries when a specific group of people seem to have a hard time "fitting in" with society, and bring an amazing amount of excuses as to why that is.

Granted, France has problems, but they are not purposefully locking up Muslims just because they can..

reply to post by 44soulslayer


Think nothing of it I speak a lot of rubbish quite frequently - don't take it personally

I have to agree whole-heartedly with your last post. I believe it is a cycle, spawned from bad circumstances, in which natural defense mechanisms (our social nature) have created undesirable conditions for raising impressionable kids.

How do we fix it? Who knows! My money is on breaking the cycle. If enough effort was put in to actually educating these kids, essentially augmenting the social education most kids should get at home, society could keep these kids on the straight and narrow. I don't know if that's through finding role-models, strengthening the family unit (one parent, two parents, different or same-gender, doesn't matter - they just have to be an authoritative voice the kid could, and should, look up to), or through teaching kids how to break out of the ghetto in schools and the benefit of education. Maybe also providing space for kids to do their homework in school, maybe even on the weekend, so no matter how bad their home is, they can still work in peace.

Or, maybe we'd find out exactly how to fix the problem if we talked to the kids more. I'm pretty sure no-one knows exactly what each "side" is thinking, what the common concerns and grievances are, and until we do, the only way we could fix it is with a lucky guess, and history has told us they aren't that common

reply to post by groingrinder


And if you'd been bothered to read the thread, you'd know no-one's saying they were locked up on some charge of "being poor in the first degree". You'd also read a bit about how not everyone is the same as you (as you seem to think, using yourself as some sort of example that disproves the experiences of hundreds of millions, even billions, of people around the world). I don't doubt you've been homeless. I do, however, doubt that you missed out on an education. That's the key factor here.

In the United States of America, EVERYONE gets educated through high school. I do not know how that works in Germany though.

[edit on 5-6-2008 by groingrinder]

Originally posted by Master_Wii
Is France racist?

Islam isn't a race. Therefore they can't be racist.

Do they have something against the RELIGION of Islam? No.

But those people in prison certainly have a problem adapting to the laws of the land in France. The only reason they are in jail is because of crimes of their own doing.

(Gawd ... I'm defending France.... whoda' thunk it? )

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
There is correlation on the basis that the immigrant communities who are poor, are poor because of their own intrinsic failings which additionally results in increased criminality.

Very true.

reply to post by dave420


Ah well a solution I've been toying with is National Service.

Authoritarian; builds good discipline; utilizes those who would otherwise be doing nothing; teaches good behaviour and manners; bolsters our national security; imparts valuable skills; creates leaders out of men.

Perhaps a choice of either leaving school at 16 and joining national service, or continuing with education beyond 16?

Though I immediately see the problem in this will be people signing up for more schooling and then just playing truant/ disrespecting teachers.

Perhaps if caught and convicted of gang activity then mandatory national service?

reply to post by 44soulslayer


You saying that reminded me that I thought the same thing a few weeks ago. National service might be a very good idea to teach kids how to behave. I think it might be a very good idea. It doesn't approach the issue of education, though. Maybe a two-pronged approach might work - work on ensuring decent education (as in academic and social), and national service, either for all, or for those wishing to end education at 16.

Of course, now I'm too old to qualify for national service, I'm a big fan :-P

reply to post by groingrinder


You clearly don't know how it works in the US, either. Having access to schools does not equate getting an education. There are countless kids in the US who don't go to school (and who are not homeschooled). Just having schools is part of the problem - getting kids to go is another part of the problem societies in general are having more difficulty with. It's relatively easy to just put up some bricks and call it a school.

Oh my god, if people had any idea of the European/Muslim problem their head would spin. I will try to give a very brief analogy. After the holocaust, Europe encouraged immigration on a grand scale, in order to win favor back worldwide, and to prove they weren't racist and try to water down the whole Hitler thing. Well you might say it is biting them on the azz now. Hundreds of thousands of muslims did immigrate. They have their own sections in every city, and if you value your life you would not step even one foot into them. Talk about PREJUDICE. The muslims despise anyone non-muslim. I have to look for an article, it is about 50 pages so more like a book, is online somewhere, that tells the complete story. It's one you can't stop reading once you start. We don't have enough of them in the US to face the problem of them having large muslim communities but in the future we might. I think immigration should have been halted after 9/11. We don't know who can be trusted anymore.

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by groingrinder

 

You clearly don't know how it works in the US, either. Having access to schools does not equate getting an education. There are countless kids in the US who don't go to school (and who are not homeschooled). Just having schools is part of the problem - getting kids to go is another part of the problem societies in general are having more difficulty with. It's relatively easy to just put up some bricks and call it a school.

Ok Jack, let me tell you what I do know. Schools in America are more than just a pile of bricks. We have building codes here. This is not a third world country. Our children are not schooled in condemned buildings. My company had contracts to paint the interiors of the public schools in Colorado Springs, Co. I am very familiar with the architecture of American Schools, having poured over plan sets for hundreds of hours to prepare bids. We have laws here that mandate that children must go to school. We have police who will pick up children they see who are obviously not in school when they should be. What we are lacking is SUPPORT FROM THE PARENTS AND SCHOOL CHILDREN THEMSELVES. You cannot force somebody to learn who does not want to. You cannot legislate somebody to become motivated. Parents need to be charged with criminal charges when their minor children are not in school. PARENTS ARE THE MISSING LINK HERE. When I was going to second and third grade in Catholic school, I had to ride my bike five miles to school and five miles home. There was no excuse for me not to get there. If I had a flat, I was expected to walk to school and fix my bike when I got home that night. If I got bad grades, or my parents heard from the nuns that I was misbehaving, there was going to be hell to pay. QUIT TRYING TO FIND AN EXCUSE FOR BAD BEHAVIOR!!!

Admittedly, not having read every post in this thread, I don't know how it got off onto the public school thing. But I know a little bit about it. My sister has taught public school for years. She has a police escort from and to her car. Every person entering goes thru metal detector. At least 3 or 4 times she has feared for her life after reprimanding kids. I could go on and on.

reply to post by groingrinder


I dont think we are trying to find excuses here.

I have repeatedly stated that the fault lies within those who refuse to knuckle down and work within the system, which in turn leads them to criminality.

What we are trying to discuss is how can the situation be changed? Sure we can continue with this current system, but it is clear that it is not working.

While ideologically it would make sense to have a system of meritocracy only, practicality demands that special measures be taken to address the rampant criminality amongst certain groups.

Now we can either do that by deportation (which is arbitrary, racist and unworkable), execution (which you suggested, and I doubt can be taken seriously), or we can think up some situation where special measures are taken to help these people. I dislike the idea of having to spend extra effort, time and money on certain groups, but we need to at least try before saying "lets execute them all".

But Im rambling a bit... the essence of what Im trying to say is that if we can use these folks in a constructive way (national service) as opposed to letting them run riot, would we not actually be helping ourselves in the long run?

Originally posted by Bumbeni
They have their own sections in every city, and if you value your life you would not step even one foot into them. Talk about PREJUDICE. The muslims despise anyone non-muslim.

Self segregating. Also - they have their own laws in these self-segregated pockets and refuse to follow the laws of the land they moved to. It's their own fault they are in jail. Period.