Can God make a stone so heavy that he can not pick it up?

I saw this question in a book and thought about it for a while, i would like to no what some religious people think about this. If god can do anything, he can make a stone so large he cannot pick it up, but then he could also pick it up because he is god. how does that work?

reply to post by superevoman


superevoman you say in your post and I quote "If god can do anything, he can make a stone so large he cannot pick it up, but then he could also pick it up because he is god. how does that work?". Well my simple answer is Omnipresence and then to ask you which level of god is doing the lifting? If God is Omnipresent then I too am GOD and I don't think I can lift the planet earth all that much but a black hole which has infinite density (as opposed to infinite mass) can easily lift/move entire galaxies worth of mass and it too is GOD. Globally is not GODS mass infinite and he moves himself with ease so what is to say he (the global level of GOD!) hasn't already lifted a stone that for any other level of GOD would be impossible!

reply to post by superevoman


i have no idea.....

i do know that the bible doesnt claim god can do everything, for instence, god cannot lie.

titus 1:[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

someone told me there are 2 other things be cant do, i think one is die. and i forgot the other.

i guess making a stone he cant pick up is one of them too, i dont know....

reply to post by miriam0566


Are you aware that the Titus scripture you quote (titus 1:[2]In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; ) therefor negates these three basic states of a perfect of GOD!

1) Omnipresence : being where ever a lie is! Being the Liar!

2) Omniscience : knowing all lies and how to lie!

3) Omnipotence : having the ability to lie!

I believe this breaks the 3 basic tenets for a GOD! Do you have any answer for this apparent dichotomy in the GOD you present (the God of Titus 1:[2]) and the GOD that he himself presents in the Bible which is as follows I believe (please correct me if I am wrong or misleading!).

A) Omnipresence : God said through Jeremiah,

Am I only a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him? Do I not fill heaven and earth? (Jeremiah 23:23,24)

In Psalm 139 David wrote,

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,” even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you. [Psalm 139:7-12]

B) Omniscience: Scripture declares that God’s eyes run everywhere (Job 24:23; Psalms 33:13-15, 139:13-16; Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 16:17; Hebrews 4:13). He searches all hearts and observes everyone’s ways (1 Samuel 16:7; 1 Kings 8:39; 1 Chronicles 28:9; Psalms 139:1-6, 23; Jeremiah 17:10; Luke 16:15; Romans 8:27; Revelations 2:23)

C) Omnipotence: in Revelation 19:6 it is stated "...the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" the original Greek word is παντοκράτωρ, "all-mighty".

also Jeremiah 32:27: Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Personal Disclosure: I have only provided scriptural forms of proof to my argument and I'm well aware they fall down under other POV (ie philosophical or logical ect) as can be found on wiki under the 3 said basic states of a Perfect GOD. I see you state the following and I quote "i do know that the bible doesn't claim god can do everything, for instence, god cannot lie". Are you willing to change your position with the near I feel overwhelming scriptural evidence to the 3 basic states of GOD and maybe admit St Paul might have got it wrong in the book of Titus therefor throwing doubt on any and all of his books or the entire bible canon in general. I don't expect you to convert or throw your faith away willy nilly but I hope you can answer my questions accurately without getting distressed at them to much. Basically who do you believe? St Paul or YHVH!

reply to post by miriam0566


Disclaimer: I'm atheist but not of any of the abrahamic faiths.

I have more scriptural weight to my argument directly against your 1st point and here goes ....“…And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie.” & “God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12).

Personal Disclosure: I thank MatrixProphet for awakening me to this scripture! all kudo's go to him/her and not me! And I patiently await your reply to my deep questions.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
A) Omnipresence : God said through Jeremiah,

Am I only a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him? Do I not fill heaven and earth? (Jeremiah 23:23,24)

In Psalm 139 David wrote,

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,” even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you. [Psalm 139:7-12]

1kings 8:[43] Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

im not sure that god is omnipresent. we use the expression, you cannot hide from the law. its possible that the scripture in jeremiah could be said in that context, that with holyspirit and his army of angels, nothing is beyond his reach.

if it wasnt this way, it calls into question things like "are we god" which we obviously are not.

psalms could be expressing something similiar, nothing is beyond the reach of god.

B) Omniscience: Scripture declares that God’s eyes run everywhere (Job 24:23; Psalms 33:13-15, 139:13-16; Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 16:17; Hebrews 4:13). He searches all hearts and observes everyone’s ways (1 Samuel 16:7; 1 Kings 8:39; 1 Chronicles 28:9; Psalms 139:1-6, 23; Jeremiah 17:10; Luke 16:15; Romans 8:27; Revelations 2:23)

i agree, but if someone lies, those scriptures simply show that he knows about it. im not sure that would mean its his fault

C) Omnipotence: in Revelation 19:6 it is stated "...the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" the original Greek word is παντοκράτωρ, "all-mighty".

it is possible that titus is not literal but simply saying god chooses not to lie, so much so you can even say he cant.

im not versed on this subject so im just sending out possible ideas

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
I have more scriptural weight to my argument directly against your 1st point and here goes ....“…And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie.” & “God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12).

the problem with using this scripture to show that god lies is that it conflicts with the scripture before it...

[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

verse ten clearly shows that they are responsible for decieving themselves. verse 11 is basically saying im not going to show them different they will believe the lie.

the actual orignial word in in 11 is straying, but its commonly translated delusion

New American Standard Bible
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

American Standard Version
And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:

Bible in Basic English
And for this cause, God will give them up to the power of deceit and they will put their faith in what is false:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:

Darby Bible Translation
And for this reason God sends to them a working of error, that they should believe what is false,

some notes from the lexicon

πλανης noun - genitive singular feminine
plane plan'-ay: objectively, fraudulence; subjectively, a straying from orthodoxy or piety -- deceit, to deceive, delusion, error.

so you have several possible translations.

- god decieves them so that they believe the lie
- god allows them to be subject to thier decietfulness so that they believe the lie
- god allows thier error so that they believe the lie


[edit on 28-4-2008 by miriam0566]

Disclaimer: I'm atheist but not of the Abrahamic faiths.

You say and I quote "if it wasnt this way, it calls into question things like "are we god" which we obviously are not". I disagree with you on this and would very much like to debate it but thats another thread.

You then say and again I quote "i agree, but if someone lies, those scriptures simply show that he knows about it. im not sure that would mean its his fault" without qualifying why it wouldn't be his fault, having being the creator of the ability to lie (ie Omnipotence)!

Then you say "it is possible that titus is not literal but simply saying god chooses not to lie, so much so you can even say he cant". I agree that this could be so but could you try and provide some evidence that it isn't literal?

You state "im not versed on this subject so im just sending out possible ideas". I'm very pleased that you disclosed this and thank you for your ideas please keep them coming .

Finally you say the following (truncated by me so if I seem to mislead please call me on it) "the problem with using this scripture to show that god lies is that it conflicts with the scripture before it...

[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

verse ten clearly shows that they are responsible for decieving themselves. verse 11 is basically saying im not going to show them different they will believe the lie.

the actual original word in in 11 is straying, but its commonly translated delusion

New American Standard Bible
For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,

(truncation happens here)

so you have several possible translations.

- god decieves them so that they believe the lie
- god allows them to be subject to thier decietfulness so that they believe the lie
- god allows thier error so that they believe the lie "....
....Thanks for the information but I hate to point act that GOD is ENGAGED in all 3 of these either by active (deceives) or passive(allows) actions and holds responsibility via all 3 perfect Omni-states of being! Also being a conflicting scripture (and so close to each other!), doesn't this say something about the veracity of the bible or the book of Titus (ie its possible falsity)?

Personal Disclosure: Thanks for engaging my post so enthusiastically

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
You then say and again I quote "i agree, but if someone lies, those scriptures simply show that he knows about it. im not sure that would mean its his fault" without qualifying why it wouldn't be his fault, having being the creator of the ability to lie (ie Omnipotence)!

knowing about a lie is much different from saying the lie. this also calls into question whether god can be credited with "creating the ability to lie".

it is my personal opinion (i have no scripture or phylosophy to back this up) that god did not create "nothing". nothing is simply a side effect of "something. like hot/cold. cold is a lacking of heat, it is a side effect. love and hate are the same. god created love, but if a person chooses to go against god (free will), then the resulting vacuum is hate.

lieing is a side effect of truth. for every fact (our sun is yellow), there is naturally half truths (the sun can be blue with certain glasses on) and an infinity of full out lies (the sun is blue, the sun is a horse, the sun is a guy named bob).

god didnt nessesarily directly create them, they how we perceive the negatives..

like i said just my opinion

Then you say "it is possible that titus is not literal but simply saying god chooses not to lie, so much so you can even say he cant". I agree that this could be so but could you try and provide some evidence that it isn't literal?

actually the only evidence i would be able to show that effect are scriptures you already cited. being that god can do anything, its possible that god understands the detrimental consequences that would result from him lieing (if you cant trust god then you cant trust anything, not even your own existance). therefore it would be logical for him to say it is impossible for him to lie.

i guess what im saying is that impossible is in a different sense. like if you told a loving husband to murder his wife and he replied that it is impossible for him to do that. we both know he phyisically can but he couldnt live with the consequenses of his actions

my thoery anyway

....Thanks for the information but I hate to point act that GOD is ENGAGED in all 3 of these either by active (deceives) or passive(allows) actions and holds responsibility via all 3 perfect Omni-states of being! Also being a conflicting scripture (and so close to each other!), doesn't this say something about the veracity of the bible or the book of Titus (ie its possible falsity)?

yes i agree, god is engaged.

but think of it this way....

in verse 10, people fool themselves. so you have people that say god is this or god is that, some say there is no god because we have no evidence.

11 god allows thier error so that they believe the lie. so even though god could part the clouds and show some manifestation of himself, he doesnt. that is much different that him actively decieving them.

that also calls into question, why should he reveal himself. if the bible is his word, noone who has at least seen a bible can claim that they havent heard of him. infact, you can learn ALOT about the christian god fromt he bible, so god allowing thier error to go on makes sense...

to me anyway.

Personal Disclosure: Thanks for engaging my post so enthusiastically

no, thank you. i love it when there are topics i dont have much experience in and its nice not to be attacked.

it is a pleasure debating you.

[edit on 29-4-2008 by miriam0566]

reply to post by miriam0566

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor scriptural or bible scholar skills.

You keep seeming to restrict what your GOD can and cannot do and this seems to make it look imperfect in my eyes and I see GOD as always perfect (yes also perfect in its imperfection as that imperfection is the best it can be at that point in time and space! I can be perfectly wrong for example!) so we have a point of contention here but I do know of an imperfect christian GOD in the Gnostic religion (wiki article here) where the YHVH of the O.T. is considered a flawed creator demi urge. You might like to suss that out!

Personal Disclosure: You say "no, thank you. i love it when there are topics i don't have much experience in and its nice not to be attacked.......it is a pleasure debating you". Well I'm very gratified and honored by your comments and you are truly welcome and so far I'm enjoying what you are serving up so please keep it coming.

honeslty, i dont know...

i never really studied this subject in depth until now so i really dont have a strong opinion about it.

my guess is that there has to be limits that god has applied to himself

- omnipresence - my guess (only guess) is that he limits himself, otherwise how can any of use truly call ourself individual.

- omnipotent - i cant see god being able to die. so i suppose thats a limit. things like lieing may be selfimpossed

- omniconscience (all knowing? did i spell it right?) - him knowing all possibilites past, future, and present is certainly possible. it is possible too that he doesnt actually know what possibilty we will choose (free will), but i certainly would think that he would be able to predict which we will choose.

unfortunatly, i dont have too much proof to back this all up.

reply to post by miriam0566

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. I'm very sorry but I forgot to include the link in my previous post and now I can't edit it but I will include it Here! wiki Article on Gnoticism!) and I apologize again for my slack editorial skills.

Personal Disclosure: I love your very honest reply. and I suggest you check out the link I have provided (yes its there this time! lol) as its shows a version of the Christian GOD that can be flawed and so explain all the pain and suffering but I don't personally subscribe to this point of view but I do offer it up as I see it matching closely you points of view on GOD. Please get back to me and let me know if the view expressed by the wiki article does indeed match what you know and/or are learning about GOD.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. I'm very sorry but I forgot to include the link in my previous post and now I can't edit it

but I will include it Here! wiki Article on Gnoticism!) and I apologize again for my slack editorial skills.

Personal Disclosure: I love your very honest reply.

and I suggest you check out the link I have provided (yes its there this time! lol) as its shows a version of the Christian GOD that can be flawed and so explain all the pain and suffering but I don't personally subscribe to this point of view but I do offer it up as I see it matching closely you points of view on GOD. Please get back to me and let me know if the view expressed by the wiki article does indeed match what you know and/or are learning about GOD.

i read the article. no i dont think it fits with my beliefs.

im coming to the conclusion that if god has limits, its because its self impossed.

lieing is a good example. if god lied, it would probably have untold ramifications.

as for suffering, i believe it has alot to do with a challenge satan raised. i posted about it here...

quote from another thread

some things to note.

- eating the fruit is of little consequence. therefore it is likely it symbolized something. it is my understanding that it symbolized independance and that by literally eating it equaled saying to god "we would like to do things on our own from now on"

- i suspect the test was simple so that noone could claim that is was harsh. noone can say that not eating a fruit is difficult or unfair.

- they were told the consequences from day one. if they eat from it, then they die (non-existance, not hell). so noone can claim that god tricked them.

- adam and eve were lied to. they believed the lie, but after found god was telling the truth.

- the bible does not shy away from describing sexual encounters so it is unlikely that the fruit represents sex.

it is of my opinion that the church adds this sexual overtone to the situation because they do not fully understand the significance of the event (ive heard a pastor put forth the same thoery). this is where one must begin to see why god permits the bad things that happen today, unlike the church who simply says that "gods ways are mysterious"

if you listen to the challenge satan made, he started by implying that god was a liar "yea, hath god said", other translations say something like, is it true?

then eve tells the satan the law, after satan outright lies and says "ye will not die, For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

this part is very very significant.

ive actually heard alot of people on this forum that say good and evil are just constructions, made up. this scripture proves them right. but now who determines whats right or wrong? up to this point god did. adam and eve were in subjection. but now satan is saying that if you eat the fruit, they will be as gods... determining right and wrong for themselves.

this is a rebellion. they, like alot of people today and throughout history, are saying we do not need a god to tell us what to do. the obvious reason why is because they feel that they can do it better.

you know the rest, they sin and now life is not the paradise it once was, but why? why would a god of love allow us to go though pain? the answer lies in the challenge. if adam and eve are like gods and can do better, they were given the oppurtunity to prove it. all mankind can prove it for themselves. that is why the world today is largely alienated from god.

/rant

reply to post by OmegaLogos

Hi OL.

I do not want to be derogatory, but your statement below, and the thread itself remind me of the pointless, fruitless debate that is said to have occupied people's minds for a very long time: 'How many angels can you fit on a pinhead'(!)

Are you aware that the Titus scripture you quote (titus 1:[2]In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; ) therefor negates these three basic states of a perfect of GOD!

1) Omnipresence : being where ever a lie is! Being the Liar!

2) Omniscience : knowing all lies and how to lie!

3) Omnipotence : having the ability to lie!

I believe this breaks the 3 basic tenets for a GOD! Do you have any answer for this apparent dichotomy in the GOD you present (the God of Titus 1:[2]) and the GOD that he himself presents in the Bible which is as follows I believe (please correct me if I am wrong or misleading!).

Here you are both wrong and misleading. The chief attribute of the one, true, eternal God is infinite moral perfection. There is therefore no dichotomy: the ability to lie would require the ability to be inconsistent, not to mention deceptive.

Playing with words does not enable anyone to get to the Truth. Most people who engage in such philosophical musings are really not seeking the truth - they just find satisfaction in the intellectual process.

Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ.

Colossians 2:8



reply to post by miriam0566

Hi there.

im coming to the conclusion that if god has limits, its because its self imposed.

There was no need for God to impose anything on Himself, (otherwise there would have been a point before that at which the self-imposed restriction did not apply, implying He needed to change, or improve something about Himself).

He has always been the marvellous Being of perfection that He is through all eternity!

There are things that cannot apply to Him because nothing morally good ever was or ever can be lacking in Him. Consistency requires that there never was or ever can be anything morally bad in Him.

Philosophical musings are mind games. God revealing Himself, and His message to mankind, through the Bible - is Truth, as it is from Him.

Both exist, but only one is profitable!




[edit on 1/5/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by pause4thought
The chief attribute of the one, true, eternal God is infinite moral perfection. There is therefore no dichotomy: the ability to lie would require the ability to be inconsistent, not to mention deceptive.

thats a good point. i never thought of it that way

I don't know, but an even better question would be, Can God make a thread any lamer than this one?

This question has been presented as a joke for ever! gimme a break...

reply to post by pause4thought

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. ALSO! I've had computer troubles for past fortnight and haven't posted since then and so I apologize for any inconvenience caused by this delay (it appears I've been logged in all this time OMG!).

pause4thought you say in reference to my 3 stated attributes of a perfect GOD and I quote "Here you are both wrong and misleading. The chief attribute of the one, true, eternal God is infinite moral perfection. There is therefore no dichotomy: the ability to lie would require the ability to be inconsistent, not to mention deceptive". Could you please provide scriptural evidence that GODs chief attribute is infinite moral perfection, as it would strengthen your argument manyfold!

Personal Disclosure: I feel I have provided scriptural evidence (as best I can) to back up my arguments in my above posts and I let them stand for themselves.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Awesome response. Someone who is prepared to listen to the arguments and give them consideration. Kudos. (And even more refreshing than the ice-cream I've just finished.)

Sorry I'm too busy to provide a full reply just now, but I'll be back when possible.

reply to post by pause4thought

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills.

Thanks for the compliment pause4thought. I endevour to debate reasonably and with a high level of respect for my fellow debaters so Thanks very much for pointing this out as I often don't receive many compliments at all.

Personal Disclosure: I patiently await your response.

reply to post by miriam0566

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. ALSO! I've had computer troubles for past fortnight and haven't posted since then and so I apologize for any inconvenience caused by this delay (it appears I've been logged in all this time OMG!).

Thanks for your reply miriam0566. I like your POV about GODs limits being self imposed. You suggest an overall underlying reason how and/or why he/she would limit him/herself so as being untold ramifications and so I ask could you suggest why GOD would be limited by ramifications of any type? Also I thank you for answering my question about gnosticism and whether it fitted your view of GOD. As to the suffering bit I can see your POV here as well but question why it has to be such a necessary evil. I think I need to clarify this a bit and here goes....why make us choose under duress? How does this not torpedo YHVH/GODs moral high ground?

Personal Disclosure: I'm really enjoying this conversation with you miriam0566 but I feel we need to get back on topic which is "Can GOD make a stone so heavy he/she can not lift it?" and I believe that yes it can and I state why in previous post to this thread. What do you think the names of all these stones may be? (lets start with lying as you pointed that one out before). Finally if GOD has all these stones he can't lift then how does he do anything (i.e isn't he too weighed down by all those stones?).

Edited to make even more sense.


[edit on 10-5-2008 by OmegaLogos]

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
Thanks for your reply miriam0566. I like your POV about GODs limits being self imposed. You suggest an overall underlying reason how and/or why he/she would limit him/herself so as being untold ramifications and so I ask could you suggest why GOD would be limited by ramifications of any type?

i think its because he wants to do things a certain way.

look at lying for example. GOD created free will, which means essentially we can choose to be close to him or not. it also by proxy creates this phenomenon by which we have to build a relationship with god just like we do with everybody else, its not automatically there. now lets say hypothetically, god does want to be close to us. how detrimental(sp?) would it be if he lied? it wouldnt be the same as lets say my friend sarah lying to me, it would hurt yes but with god it would be much worse. if you KNEW he existed and he suddenly lies about something, how can you trust anything?

an example of this reasoning is Kent (sp?). he approached truth from the point of view of, well what can we trust? hence his famous quote ¨I think therefore i am¨.

if an absolute truth doesnt exist, then nothing is real. GOD, by not lying, provides us a beacon from where to start. its very important.

I'm really enjoying this conversation with you miriam0566 but I feel we need to get back on topic which is "Can GOD make a stone so heavy he/she can not lift it?" and I believe that yes it can and I state why in previous post to this thread. What do you think the names of all these stones may be? (lets start with lying as you pointed that one out before). Finally if GOD has all these stones he can't lift then how does he do anything (i.e isn't he too weighed down by all those stones?).

im not sure about god being omnipresent. certainly he has the ability to be, but its possible he limits himself in this regard too

there are a few scriptures nagging at me

john 1:[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

if god is everywhere and everything, cant it be said that we have seen god?

1 kings 8 : [43] Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

how can he have a dwelling place if he is omnipresent?

hebrews 9:[24] For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

this one strikes me as interesting. the temple and tabernacle had a holy compartment and a most holy compartment. the most holy had the ark which was said to be where GOD was.

i forgot what the ritual was called but basically once a year, the high priest entered into the most holy with a sacrifice. this ofcourse was all a copy and symbolic of what jesus was to do in heaven with his spilt blood in redemtion of mankind.

my point is, how can GOD have a presence in a specific place, even in heaven, if he was omnipresent.

just a thoery

As to the suffering bit I can see your POV here as well but question why it has to be such a necessary evil. I think I need to clarify this a bit and here goes....why make us choose under duress? How does this not torpedo YHVH/GODs moral high ground?

because if you love someone, you stick with them through think and thin, you dont adandon then because life gets tough.

im thinking about posting about this topic in light of a few threads, or we can continue this in u2u?