Who changed the 2nd Commandment?

Originally posted by Enthralled Fan
Now my question is, why can't they go directly to God and ask for favors?

Jesus said no one come to the Father except through Him. In other words, Jesus Christ is the only intercessor. The Church of Rome has declared that there are many intercessors ie Saints, Priest, Mary, etc . . .

This video by Professor Walter J. Veith explains how the High Priest from the Old Testament is symbolic of the part Jesus plays today as intercessor between God and man.

Total Onslaught An Advocate for Our Time

The video is 1hr 19min long, but is a good resource for understanding the symbolic nature of the Temple and Priest.

I know I cop cop it from certain readers, but here goes. ...
On the surface it would appear to have been tha Catholics. As has been suggested the catholics do tend to pray to not only the saints but pictures, medalions and statues of the saints as well as the crucifix. (Yes the crucifix is highly symbolic and a reminder to us all but would a simple cross not suffice instead of the whole bloody and beaten jesus and why focus the prayer on it instead of God dirctly?)

It is intersting that you ask only about the 2nd comandment. Why just this one? What is to say all of them haven't been changed.

Slightly off but related, there is a line of thought that there were more than 10 but Moses picked the 10 he liked most or suited him best. Once the tablet were broken who would be able to argue?

reply to post by VIKINGANT


quote]Originally posted by VIKINGANT
Slightly off but related, there is a line of thought that there were more than 10 but Moses picked the 10 he liked most or suited him best. Once the tablet were broken who would be able to argue?

The Bible says that God wrote the Ten Commandments with His finger onto stone tablets. When Moses broke those in anger, God replaced them with another set.

reply to post by darkelf


True....Big OOPS from me and humble apologies.
Thanks for pointing it out. That aside, did Moses make the commandments available for all to see or pass them on verbally? That would also allow room for censoring. I am not saying it is what happened but an idea that has been suggested. I guess bringing it back onto topic the answer could be Moses?

reply to post by darkelf


There are numerous times in the Bible where we are instructed to pray for each other. I realize that you may not believe in the legitimacy of the Epistle of James, but James 5:16 is a good example. It seems like a pretty clear call to act as intercessors for each other.

Eric

reply to post by EricD


Eric,
from the NIV

16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

I am pretty sure this refers to live people praying for each other. Not asking dead saints or images of the saints to speak to God on our behalf.

First of let me say a big thank you to all of you. I few things I would like to address. I was born and raised a catholic. Until I started to ask questions that, no one could /would answer. When I was old enough I left. I still believe in god and Jesus. Just so, you know where I stand.
Enthralled fan. Why can’t they go directly to god? A very good point.

Madnessinsinmysoul. Sorry bout that, exodus.

Jphish. I am so glad some one brought that up as I was going to pop that in somewhere thanks. (Who changed the Sabbath?)

Darkeif. Every thing you have posted has me nodding my head. It’s so true. Mary is becoming more popular then Jesus. Churches named after her and so on. And boy the pope just can’t praise her so-called importance fast enough.

(not directed at any one)
Don’t get me wrong I mean no disrespect to her. However, no one. God, Jesus, or any where in the bible, ever said she was holy. Or we should pray to her. That’s the c.c.

Vikingant. I have many questions to ask. However, the reason I posted this one, is research for a project I’m working on.

Ericd. I cant remember off hand where in the bible it says “the dead have no conscious no thoughts no memory there are no wonder or answers no wisdom in the grave” my understanding of that is the dead are dead until judgement day.



By the way, please don’t think I’m a bible-thumping person I’m far from it. As I have said, I’m working on a project. This involves the bible. And all the questions I had as a kid came back. Normally I don’t like it when a post goes of topic, but this thread should NOT be contained to just the 2nd commandment. And I really appreciate all of you putting your input in. Thanks.



[edit on 23/4/08 by iammonkey]

To the OP: I don't think it's so much about who did what, one should rather look at the Greeko-Roman tradition with idols and see how this came into popularity within the early church and has stayed as stains on the robes of Christianity. The idols I refer to are the Orthodox and Catholic icons. Often illuminated with gold and painted with tempera on pricy wood, depicting everything from Mary with child, Jesus on Cross one of the Apostles and so on. These icons are highly valued and often given magical potensial. They are worshipped like the idols at Moses' time were worshipped and is therefore a grave sin. The second commenment actually prohibits all figurative art, photographies, video, maybe even audio too...

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Couldn’t agree with you more. And let’s not forget the images that weep tears and so called blood. So the second commandment forbids this. But the pope is the biggest culprit. He kneels and bows down to them. And tells his flock to do the same. why can’t they see the contradiction? I can remember some old relative of mine. Who kept bits of cloth from a saint, on them? And saying novenas, to Mary. Now either the pope is dumb (all of them) or they do this in full knowledge. With an agenda in mind. Dan 7.25 talks about men who excel them self above god. Changing time and law (or words to that effect) the c.c has done that (imo.) The 2nd commandment. And changing the true Sabbath Saturday, To Sunday. Also I think its matt.23.9 says no one should be called farther on earth in the same meaning as a spiritually way. Yet the pope and priest are called the holy farther, and farther. (I think I have that right I don’t mind any one correcting me as Its the whole point is to ask questions.)

[edit on 23/4/08 by iammonkey]

Originally posted by iammonkey
Darkeif. Every thing you have posted has me nodding my head. It’s so true. Mary is becoming more popular then Jesus. Churches named after her and so on. And boy the pope just can’t praise her so-called importance fast enough.
[edit on 23/4/08 by iammonkey]

I thought the Beatles were more popular than Jesus

I will just be quick as i am short on time. It is my understanding that the Mary phenominon started when southern america was 'invaded' by the missionaries. The cultural beliefs of the natives was to worship famale deities so Mary was pushed to get thier attention and it grew from there.
If you want more, let me know and I will et more details
Ant

[edit on 23/4/2008 by VIKINGANT]

reply to post by VIKINGANT


Thanks for that. yes i would like more info. when you have time.I have just been reading one of your threads.very Enjoyable. I should come here more often.People are putting up some great links.

reply to post by iammonkey


Greetings I find this an interesting topic...my 2cents...if you do not mind...The Mary worship concept has it roots in pagan antiquity eg..The Queen of Heaven...A large portion of Catholosism has its roots in the ancient Babylonian Mystery religion....The feasts of this religion were adopted as holy days at the council of Nicea,whose sole purpose was to deJudieze the christian church (Holidays..SUNday sungod worship,CHRISTSmass,Easter celebration of fertility and so on..ref Hyslop The two Babylons)

reply to post by theodorej

Greeting to you. Thank you. Do I mind? Not at all. Jump right in. I’m trying to soak up all the links and references. Please post as much as you can.

Wow you discovered your hand picked bible! I call it hand picked because thats what it is from the first translation and thru the ages.
I can prove it

Originally posted by alienib
Wow you discovered your hand picked bible! I call it hand picked because thats what it is from the first translation and thru the ages.
I can prove it

Please do.
thats what im looking for. all info welcome

The book of Enoch was spoken of by Jesus...it was in his old testament but it's not in yours so you need to look up that book and start there.

Originally posted by VIKINGANT
reply to post by EricD

 

I am pretty sure this refers to live people praying for each other. Not asking dead saints or images of the saints to speak to God on our behalf.

My response was directed to the question of whether there can be an intercession with God. It seems clear that there can.

There is then a second question of 'can a Saint communicate with God on our behalf as the living can'. I (and to the best of my knowledge; the Catholic Church) believe that they can.

On another topic, The Two Babylons is not worth discussion except as an example of what scholarship has evolved from. The logical errors and research that has proved faulty has resulted in this popular tome being dismissed by any serious academic, including it's formerly most fervid supporter Ralph Woodrow.

Eric

reply to post by iammonkey
What alienib says is true, you won't find some of the original books of the bible in the modern day bible as some of them were intentionally taken out. Also some of the original text was changed during translation. They have a book to translate the new version back into the original text, they're pretty pricey though you may want to go to a religious bookstore and see if they have a copy for public viewing. I was confirmed lutheran many years ago but stopped going to church long ago, so things may have changed, but when i went i was taught that the 2nd commandment was thou shall have no graven images (false idols), there are also other divisions of the lutheran church that may have been taught differently. Sorry but i can't presume to know who changed it, if you research the original text it should help you find an answer though.

Originally posted by pierreletrek
nohup you seem to know much about things. do you believe in life after death !

No life after death for me, thank you. I figure if I do it right, one limited lifetime should be plenty. As it is, the same basic conditions existed before I was born that will exist after I'm dead, and I sure don't remember any pre-life.

As I've said before, after doing some careful study of the matter, I've come to the conclusion that life is nothing but a painful series of horrors, punctuated by very fleeting moments of joy, destined to end badly.

Originally posted by iammonkey
reply to post by VIKINGANT

 

Thanks for that. yes i would like more info. when you have time.I have just been reading one of your threads.very Enjoyable. I should come here more often.People are putting up some great links.

Hi Monkey,
I am glad you liked the thread. It appears not many did as you would have seen.
The CiR forum is a good one to look at occasionally. I get a lot out of it, Even from those who take themselves too seriously.


The ‘Mary to convert’ concept was from various things I had heard and read over the years but I cannot locate the books or references, I have however found a couple of links for you if put together would suggest this idea.

This info does not necessarily explain the ‘Mary phenomenon’ world wide but does largely explain it for the Hispanic countries and could well have led to world wide acceptance

Incan Religion says

In the centuries following the Spanish conquests of Mexico and Peru most Native Americans were at least nominally converted to Catholicism (see Roman Catholic Church). The blending of native and Catholic beliefs was a complicated process

and

, the Virgin of Guadalupe appeared to an Aztec man named Juan Diego. Devotion to the Virgin spread rapidly, and within six years 9 million Indians had been baptized as Catholics in central Mexico. Worship of some Aztec gods and goddesses, most notably ancient agricultural deities, persisted. These deities were blended with Catholic saints in the new religion.

This link under the headingGoddess Revival Says

This is merely an expensive monument outlining the Roman Catholic Church’s agenda in gathering all religions under her jurisdiction. In the past whenever astute Protestant historians documented Rome’s merger of Christianity and paganism, Catholic spokespersons protested loudly denying any such connection. And now they proudly identify the origin of their own Lady of the Angels with the pagan Inca goddess, Pachamama. Unbelievable!

Then this link says

….in order to change their gods decided upon disguising them as Virgins and Saints. Thus, it was considered that the "Pacha Mama" (Mother Earth) was represented by Virgin Mary….

And here is another one just to have a look at. Here

Happy reading