The problem with ATS at times.....

Well not with ATS as such, but with some of the users on here.

Someone posts a thread, and someone replies, and some person might not like the reply of that person and a conflict starts for the next 3 pages.

Now the problem is i clicked on that thread because i was interested in it, and what people had to say about it.

Instead, i have to read 3 - 4 pages of people insulting each other.

Is it just me or should something be done about this ?


+spelling+



[edit on 20-4-2008 by Vimes]

reply to post by Vimes


Yhea I hear ya!

Hopefully the duelling parties have distinctive avatars, that makes it easier to scroll past them.

There is always the ignore function - but I've never used that.

Problem is it isn't just dueling parties, it is a whole group acting in one accord.

I wish something could be done about it also.

Very distracting and takes it's toll on the entire site.

It is a natural reaction, to having someone trying to get you to try to believe something against what you were taught all your life. People at first laugh about something that goes against what they have been taught. But then they get in an argument.

Ats is always going to be like that, even though like you say alot of the posts are useless, as they are just arguments. Like everything, only the little details are what we all are looking for.

Andy1033 - I hear what your saying,

Just gets to u sometimes, im relaxing with a red wine, wanting to read some interesting things, and let's face it, i know of no other site where u can sit down and read such a wide variety of topics.

And instead i read me vs you battling crap, anyway, i suppose nothing can be done about it, except maybe points taken off of to get banned, i mean ive had 400 points taken off once for getting into a argument...

won't do that again soon

And yet, we mods are called names for meddling too much. The sad fact is everyone wants some other person's post worked over, but never their own. Each points to the other side as the culprit of malcontent.

You see, we try to enforce the T&C equally towards all parties. We try to gently remind people to play nice by posting in the thread words to that effect. But since everyone just knows it's the other guy that is being bad, no one changes their style. Our posts of persuasion fail to persuade, our sweet mannered offering of guidance is spurned, And we are forced to fall back on the T&C.

Then, in exasperation, and because no one wants to pay attention to the gentle reminders, we have to start penalizing people. Sure enough, we get noticed then. U2Us start flying from those people with little red stickers or road signs in place of their posts. "Why? Why? Excuse! Excuse!", when they could have avoided the mess if they had taken our gentle posts to stay on topic to heart.

But I've come to realize that it's human nature at fault. We all see ourselves as the hero of our own story. We can't be wrong, because heroes are never wrong, only misunderstood. So it has to be the other person bringing down the level of conversation by resorting to rudeness. And naturally, because everyone fancies themselves a fair wit, retaliation in kind shows the world that we are not someone to be verbally trifled with. And so a thread war of snipping and baiting blooms anew. And 'er long, the red badges of "courage" come out, and certain voices are silenced, never to trill upon these boards again.

So simple the answer, so hard the execution. Address the topic, if it interests you, and all will be fine. So a troll calls you an idiot for thinking pink leprechauns have the most gold hidden away. Instead of addressing the troll, address the gold, the sartorial splendor of Little People, or even the difficulties of locating hidden wealth and then keeping the government from taking most of it in taxes. And if truly incensed by the idiot label, from which no hat has ever been hung, then hit the complaint button and your local mod will answer forthwith.

It all starts with you. It can end with you.

[edit on 20-4-2008 by NGC2736]

Here's the problem with ATS...

The censorship is starting to get a little uncomfortable.

Civility at what price?

reply to post by Vimes


it has to do with believeablity, most people here want some kind of proof, or at leat reasoned thought. if not, you will get these type of reactions. if you did NOT get these type of reactions, the board becomes typed foolishness.

I mean.... it's the same problem that we have as a society. Everyone wants to not have their feelings hurt, to feel safe and secure, but they want someone else to do it for them, so they complain to the authorities... and then after a while, you get all these rules, and authorities wanting more ease of control, instead of just letting the people work it out and solve their own damn problems.... why do we have to have a handbook about how to behave in a place where free discussion is supposed to be going on? Rulebook on discussions (???) = freedom of speech gone.

Deny Freedom?

Maybe Civility and Decorum is just a nice way of saying "We're here to make money, and your free speech doesn't look good to our advertisers."

What does look good to advertisers is a bunch of easily mallable easily gullible fools that are encouraged to talk about insulent stuff, and have to refrain from showing any real emotion. Sometimes, emotion involves injury! People will never learn if you just put tape over the mouths of the "disturbance".

As above, so below... society as whole reflected in this little microcosm.

[edit on 20-4-2008 by indierockalien]

I will take what you said to heart.

Thanks for a well thought out response that includes a potential towards a solution.

Reply to NGC2736

[edit on 20-4-2008 by interestedalways]

reply to post by indierockalien


And you would feel better if allowed to scream and yell vileness at others? And what if they could have the same right to utter whatever bleakness they chose?

There are web sites that do this. There's no learning, no growing, going on at them. They're the ghetto of ideas and expansion. Where people are discussed more than ideas, there can be nothing but the beggars cloth to wrap our thoughts in.

What is censored that is so worthy that civilized behavior should be abandoned? Hemp, both utilitarian and esoteric, seems likely to be the flavor of the month. What needs be said? It's illegal here in the states, it seems to be likely to stay that way for a while, or as long as it's more profitable that way. We exclude it from most conversation as a polite nod to the need for wider dissemination of a the grand breadth of ATS ideas. And despite the anguished cry of wanna be "pot messiahs", most people are comfortable leaving certain subjects off the table for the good of the many.

We are all censored by some aspect of society. Just because the human body is beautiful, we can't stroll downtown on a Thursday afternoon wearing just a smile and slippers. Because most of us care for children, we can't encourage the sick users to think they have a greater right to personal satisfaction than children to childhood. Many ways of censorship are used by society, and ATS is no different. We are a society with a few rules of expected conduct.

But the crux of the matter is self censoring. We need to be better at that. We need to stop, for just a second, and ask ourselves if anything is served by ranting at a troll, or starting a thread on a subject we know is liable to be a problem for thousands of businesses and schools that let ATS through now. Or is it instead simply a selfish desire to be so different, to be seen as a radical, that we postulate changing society overnight using ATS. Is it because we want to learn more that we waste time and strength to give the trolls a reply, or because we need to be right and make sure everyone knows it?

A little thinking does a body good.



[edit on 20-4-2008 by NGC2736]

Let me remind you all that this is a business, and businesses have needs just like any other... but truth should not be a business opportunity. If you wanna maintain the credibility of this site as a place where people can come and truly "deny ignorance", you have to sacrifice your business for the good of all... but I get it. It's a business. It always was a business. I mean, David Wilcock admits it openly. Yet we're trapsing around here like the selling of truth and freedom for a buck doesn't have some limitations in the amount of truth and freedom the buck provides the people who are being used to make this buck.

Meh. It's public relations you guys are doing. You wanna keep everybody happy and docile so you can continue making the buck. It's a job. I get it. Mods = the PR department... and since we're dealing with a bunch of people who want real truth... we all know the real truth will never get out here, because it is the antithesis to buck making, because real truth does not involve manipulation (by means of making people think that points are any relevance whatsoever...points = currency = control). If you wanna continue your buck making, you play the game, and you play it safe.

I'm sure not all mods are out to get us, but it's still their job to police us. I got points taken off for "excessive quoting"??? What if the whole quote was relevant to what I was saying? I understand the mentality of people and not clicking on the source and reading the whole article. I do that myself! So being punished for trying to get my pojnt across on a forum... points don't matter here. It's the principle.

The principle of this place is kinda screwy, when you look at it.

It's gotten too big for its own good, man. The truth won't work here. Best you can do is find people of like mind to make friends with and try to discuss things with, within the (RULE]S.

I hope I've made my point clear.

[edit on 20-4-2008 by indierockalien]

reply to post by indierockalien


NGC has pretty much summed it up but I'll make it a little more succinct:

Since when is "truth" and "civility" mutually exclusive?

I'll say that this is what happens when some bring " Playground Politics "
to the debate table.
Topics SHOULD be discussed in an adult manner, but of course are not always.
Mods, do a great job of enforcing the T&C and Courtesy, but in the end there is still some freedom of speech, that comes across as childish, or offensive.
You simply move on..or hit the ignore button. No one is forcing anyone else to read anything.
I too agree with NGC, words very well spoken my friend. You as well Intrepid.
If all of us would just realize that topics are great for debating, but not ARGUING...perhaps we would be better off.
No need to call someone a jerk to get your point across, because at that point, you are grasping at straws, and are losing your debate entirely.

My 2 pennies..
AD

Originally posted by NGC2736
reply to post by indierockalien

 

And you would feel better if allowed to scream and yell vileness at others? And what if they could have the same right to utter whatever bleakness they chose?





[edit on 20-4-2008 by NGC2736]

Exactly! I'm not challenging your ideals at all, but simply challenging the way to go about getting the ideal goals met.

I don't wanna scream and yell at people at all. I see that as the big problem, as well... but does the way you are doing things really seem to be working? I think damage control would be to say "yes, look at how we are helping fix this by censoring those innappropriate comments and this and that"... but I see things as getting more bitter, more tense... as the censorship clamps down and people can't express themselves, they get a lot more cynical, it seems.

When I first came to the forums, I was kind of a ranting raving maniac as well... but it was not the mods that taught me how to play nice. It was the top brass of posters here that policed themselves, and made people think and feel before they spoke, by gently saying "that's not very appropriate here".

I think you should leave the policing to the top brass, the people that naturally know how to diffuse situations and spread reason because there's plenty of those people here... and be notice that most of all the inappropriate things being said here are from brand new members that do not know how we dictate ourselves here. You have to realize that there is an awakening of sorts happening to people, and this is why your site has gotten so popular... but people who rush into this 'awakening' are often quick to fire off any passionate statement that comes to mind... and I mean, most of us are adults here. We can handle sticks and stones, and people having tantrums, and overzealous revolutionists who can't see it any other way. You can't view us as children who need to be policed. We ARE of a higher quality than that. I truly believe you get exactly what you ask for, even if you are asking to not have it... you're still asking for it. Skyfloating, the law of attraction in action????

I'm not even saying things have gotten Gestapo, by any means. They are rather tame, for now. But let this be a revolution on its own. Don't muddle it up by people wanting you to make their owies from a harsh word or two go away. We have to encourage self- responsibility... and that doesn't work really well when the mods have taken the responsibilities away from the participants. One of those responsibilities that is SO desperately needed to be learned is self policing, of which our governments have not allowed us to do, and I believe this mistrust in the average person's judgement is what has created the malcontent in the first place. It all starts innocent, but then it evolves into the Holy Roman Empire, and the good intent is replaced by pure crowd control.

I mean, this site could be the epicenter of the new enlightened age! If only you would give it the chance to work itsself out. There's rough waters to be traversed before balance is naturally achieved, ya know?

I mean, this is a microcosm of society as a whole. I've said this quite a few times. I think I just got done saying it, as a matter of fact. Wouldn't it be great if we could evolve into an example for the rest of society to see and believe in? No matter how benign the reasoning behind all of the Civility and Decorum is, in the end, it will produce the opposite of what this site is supposedly trying to promote... because now, you're stifling people's ability to "get it" on their own, therefore, they never do get it. They just conform so they don't get punished by the system of government, and that leads to malcontent. I'm seeing it here, and I have not been very vocal about it until now... because such a benign non-offensive thing was punished without any question as to the reason of why? I had to really question the motives here... and lo and behold, a medium to express myself has already been established and stared me right in the face. Synchronicity, maybe?

Self responsibility. NGC... exactly my point.

It is "THE TOP BRASS" that go on to become Mods.

I mean, you can't censor assholes in the street, can you?

You just gotta live with it, ignore the negativity, and its so easy. You have an ignore button. You have a delete button in U2U. You can delete hateful comments on your profile. The individual has complete control over what he/she wants to hear, and what he/she doesn't want to hear. So the ability for self censorship is there in abundance.

And ya know... sometimes the assholes make you think.

reply to post by indierockalien


I don't see where you are coming up with censorship, we are just enforcing what EVERYONE agrees to:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Some renege on this and have to be steered back to the agreed terms.

reply to post by indierockalien


Do you believe that if we encounter a spammer that we should just let it happen and let the members decided when to ignore it?

Originally posted by AccessDenied
It is "THE TOP BRASS" that go on to become Mods.

Well that's good and all, but that should not be the goal, nor even the desire of the "top brass" here. I mean, I've heard discontent by a certain mod who didn't feel like being a mod was really helping anything, saying they didn't wanna be a mod anymore. I think the top brass here is really underestimated... and everyone looks to the mods to be the top brass, when a lot of them are, but so many of the top brass are those casual users. If I ever came to be respected much by many people here, I wouldn't really want them to look to me as being top brass. That's not the goal here. The goal is to simply figure things out.

I agree that's not being done here, but I don't agree that policing anything is helping. It just leads to more room for censorship. People will learn in due time... except people get impatient and want change NOW, and the only way change can be forced... is through control, which is a very dangerous adversary to truth... because truth just is, and control is trying to become that truth, and eventually... the need to force change in order to get more truth creates an ego, which creates his own way of getting to that truth, which creates barriers towards other different views on how that truth should be achieved... and the ego thinks it's right and wants it's way to be the only way... and bam before you know it, it's a dictatorship.
Moderation is a self-realization. People will gorge themselves, and some will gorge themselves to death, but others will find that it's not so healthy, and seek to reclaim their vitality by creating balance.

America is full of little dictators running around, being encouraged by the controls set around them to be completely selfish in their desires and viewpoints about the world... and self realization goes beyond selfishness. Eventually, a rational person will realize that, in order to be the best he can be, he needs to let everything else be, because he is part of that everything else, and not an enemy of it.

A little deep philosophical musing on why any form of censorship, no matter how benign, is the antigen of truth. A deadly flu can start with a sniffle.

[edit on 20-4-2008 by indierockalien]