The Decline of America

Since the 1960s population has increased 41%; our gross domestic product has grown 3 fold; and total social spending by (measured in 1990 dollars) has risen from $143.73 billion to $787 billion. Inflation-adjusted spending on welfare programs has increased by 630%, and spending on education by 225%. Sounds like growth right?

Unfortunately violent crime has also increased 560% since 1960 and illegitimate births were up 419% by 1990. In 2005 36.9 % of all births were to unmarried women. There has been a tripling of the percentage of children living in single-parent homes; a quadrupling in divorce rates; a drop of almost 80 points in SAT scores and more than a 200% increase in the teenage suicide rate. (see links at end)

Harvard sociologist and historian Dr. Carle Zimmerman wrote, "Family and Civilization," a treatise of history, sociology, and science in 1947. Dr. Zimmerman theorized there are three basic family types. The "trustee" family predominates in agrarian societies and is clannish. Civilizations undergoing rapid development like the United States were many years ago favor the "domestic" family model. It centers on the nuclear family with relatively strong extended-family ties. Advanced civilizations (where the U.S. is today) favor the "atomistic" family, which features weak familial bonds between and within nuclear families and unfaithfulness in marriage. In the fifth century the Roman Empire fell largely due to the strong trustee families of the barbarian tribes replacing the weak, atomistic Roman families as the foundation of society.

Atomistic societies like the United States today, with its loosening of constraints on individual family members, eventually quit having enough children to carry on. Hedonistic pleasures take precedence over delayed gratification and family values. Dr. Zimmerman said, "Mothers will not bear the pains of childbirth nor fathers the worries of parenthood for economic rewards alone," he wrote. "Fundamentally, people are familistic because they think it right and for no other reason." Is fertility dropping in America? Yes it is… See Time magazine

Dr. Zimmerman was not a religious man, but he contended that the crux of the problem was a loss of religious faith. Religions that lack a strong family component don't survive over time; nor do cultures that don't have a pro-family religion.

America has been compared to the Roman Empire in secular and religious ways. Regardless of its ultimate legacy, America is a civilization on the decline. A couple of centuries from now (or sooner), someone will write a book called "The Decline and Fall of the American Empire." Historians will lament the loss of a once-great civilization that brought prosperity to the world and tried to make it safer for democracy. The glory that was the United States will lay in ruins, brought down not by terrorists but its own debauchery and complacency.

Even before cultural decay was apparent, a man named Dr. Carle Zimmerman wrote a book called "Family and Civilization" in 1947. He reviewed the decline of multiple civilizations and empires and found eight patterns of domestic behavior that signaled the decline of a civilization:

1) Marriage loses its sacredness; is frequently broken by divorce.
2) Traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony is lost.
3) Feminist movements abound.
4) Increased public disrespect for parents and authority in general.
5) Acceleration of juvenile delinquency, promiscuity, and rebellion.
6) Refusal of people with traditional marriages to accept family responsibilities.
7) Growing desire for and acceptance of adultery.
8) Increasing interest in and spread of sexual perversions and sex-related crimes.

www.gopusa.com...


Edward Gibbon, in his 18th century book “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” points to the fact that Rome was lost to internal decline not to outside forces. Roman virtues of hard work, service in the military legions, strong families and honest virtues were replaced by apathy, mercenary barbarians, and rampant homosexuality and vice. Wide spread acceptance of homosexuality among the aristocrats in Rome contributed to a decline in the birth rate among the educated thus reducing the pool of leadership manpower. As Roman virtues decayed into selfish hedonism, the Empire decayed as well.

"Dr. Zimmerman disdained his academic colleagues, who in his view denied history because the facts led them to conclusions they didn't want to accept. James Kurth, the distinguished Swarhtmore political scientist who edited the new version of Family and Civilization, says that book's publication made one of the nation's premire sociologist a politically incorrect nonperson overnight. Why should we read Dr. Zimmerman today? For one thing, the future isn't fated. We might learn from history and make choices that avert the calamities that overtook Greece and Rome."— Rod Dreher, Dallas Morning News

www.isi.org...


The truth often isn't always popular or “politically correct”. Much like Nero, the first Roman emperor in a gay marriage and an early persecutor of Christians, is famous for having "fiddled while Rome burned". We modern Americans increasingly get fat, divorced and addicted to internet pornography while our country is falling into shambles. Never mindful that the late Harvard scholar Zimmerman warned us, "Very little public knowledge of the nearness, the inescapability or the seriousness of this impending crisis exists."



Zimmerman,Carle C., Family and Civilization, 1947 - H. Holt and company

Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
Polybius
Polybius II
www.disastercenter.com...
www.cdc.gov...
www.familyfirstaid.org...
www.columbia.edu...
en.wikipedia.org...





[edit on 4/20/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Excellent research, Whammy. It's obvious you put a lot of work into this thread.

Zimmerman seems to have unwittingly been writing prophecy as well as history. It is strange how history repeats itself, isn't it? And how they say if we do not learn from history we are doomed to repeat it? Fascinating stuff.

It's no secret America is on the decline and it is very disheartening. All of the warning bells are going off but we are too content with our material [pseudo] prosperity that we fail to see our world crumbling around us while what is the most important in this world is slipping away: family bonds, the value of human life, humility, hard work, and our love for God.

Great job.

These are all the good things we were promised if we work hard for the factories and companies who buy our labor. Looks like capitalism is working!


/sarcasm off


Seriously... who can defend our lifestyle any more? Isn't it obvious that it was designed to eat itself?


Surely we can come up with something better.


For years after the 1st American Revolution, there was almost no unemployment to speak of, and coincidentally almost no crime either. What was the difference?


The people created money in accordance with productivity. It was not created by central bankers for the purpose of making profit.



"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal -- that there is no human relation between master and slave." - Leo Tolstoy


"Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and, with the flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again. Take this great power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. But, if you want to continue to be the slave of the bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers continue to create money and control credit." - Sir Josiah Stamp, Bank of England President, Second Richest Man in England

reply to post by ianr5741

Thanks for adding that! I chose to focus on social issues and family in particular because I believe it to be core. But economically we clearly show the signs of impending doom as well. In his book, "Americas Engineered Decline," William Norman Grigg said, "Even as our nation exports jobs that once opened the door to the middle class, we are importing waves of unskilled immigrants, including millions of illegals. No longer our protector, our political elite schemes to merge our country with other nations of this hemisphere into a continent-spanning socialist mega-state modeled after the European Union." We have completely destroyed the middle class worker in America. During my Grandfathers era a man could make a decent living, own a home and support a family with an honest days work as a tradesman. It is very hard to do now. Almost all manufacturing is gone to China. The Armies Green Berets berets are now made in China. Even high tech jobs like computer programming are being farmed out to India. I understand the reality of the global economy but it seems to me that some protection and restoration is in order.

www.rense.com...

No doubts here dude. If you go down to Wal Mart and watch the door for a while you get a good idea of the average American these days. Fat and soft and buying cheap Chinese made goods. People used to go to community churches and stuff and that seemed to keep a handle on the vice problems. HA, now you don't even have to go to a dirty book store and risk being seen to get porn. It comes right into your bedroom via the net. I think we are becoming so lazy and corrupt we don't even recoginize it anymore; we're used to it.

Actually the decline of America is rooted in hubris, a refusal to face hard facts, a I got mine, screw you attitude and just plain old greed. Oswald Spengler in his "Decline of the West" (1918) pointed out that parallels between societies only go so far... he used mathematics to prove his point... the ancient Greeks were known for their mathematical ability yet they never produced anything like theoretical mathematics... why? because they viewed mathematics as a practical hands on problem, not something abstract. The same reason is why the Hellenistic societies of Alexandria and Rome used mechanical devices as entertainments as opposed to problem solving solutions... there is the story of Hadrian dismissing an inventor for coming up with a more efficient way to lift loads and build buildings, because it would put people out of work.

The point being that the drawing of parallels between societies 2,000 years apart is a futile exercise... Rome's problems were her own, ours are ours.

[edit on 21-4-2008 by grover]

wow, agenda abounds...

1) Marriage loses its sacredness; is frequently broken by divorce.

translation: let's stop the gays from getting married

2) Traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony is lost.

...you mean the forced indentured servitude of a woman to a man?
hells yeah that meaning is lost!

3) Feminist movements abound.

oh, yes, i forgot that you're from a church where women don't teach men...
hate to break it to you...wait, i think the FSM put it best:

get this into your thick heads: woman = person. man = person. Samey = Samey

4) Increased public disrespect for parents and authority in general.

eh...we need a balance here. there were times when there was far too much respect of authority.

5) Acceleration of juvenile delinquency, promiscuity, and rebellion.

...rebellion is a good thing, this is a country founded on rebellion.
delinquency and promiscuity...well, delinquency we can deal with, but there isn't too much to show that promiscuity has gone up recently...

but do you know what does increase promiscuity? abstinence only sex-ed

6) Refusal of people with traditional marriages to accept family responsibilities.

...more veiled gay jabbing! people in all marriages should accepted family responsibilities..

7) Growing desire for and acceptance of adultery.

...there isn't a growing acceptance of adultery. everyone i know is disgusted by the idea.

8) Increasing interest in and spread of sexual perversions and sex-related crimes.

...ah, another veiled jab at homosexuals

this whole thing is basically a voicing of the virulent ideas of groups like the "moral majority"
it's ridiculous, the true reason we're getting more messed up is a lack of personal responsibility and hubris as well as general greed.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


While I agree with part of your OP I got hit hart with you views of marriage and women.

I don't think you view of a women place in society is submissive, barefooted and pregnant (by a husband) while mentally abused and unable to get away from a marriage that only benefit one side of what should be a partnership.

Anyway if you look at the decline of our society you should see that our own government has a lot to do with it so blaming the decline on religious base is just a small part of the problem.

Perhaps you should look at the decline of religious teaching in this nations since the birth of the megamulitibillion dollar empire that religious organizations has become so commercialized religion has become the decline of meaningful religious teachers and leaders.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
wow, agenda abounds...

1) Marriage loses its sacredness; is frequently broken by divorce.

translation: let's stop the gays from getting married

That's quite a leap since it specifically says Divorce. I know this might be a stretch for your way of thinking... maybe when it says divorce, it means divorce?

Nearly two-thirds of today's marriages will end in divorce or separation. Forty-five percent of all first marriages end in divorce.

2) Traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony is lost.

...you mean the forced indentured servitude of a woman to a man?
hells yeah that meaning is lost!

Irrelevant erroneous comment. That's not what the traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony is. It goes all the way back to Abraham's first covenant with God in Genesis. It's talking about a lifetime bond.

3) Feminist movements abound.

oh, yes, i forgot that you're from a church where women don't teach men...
hate to break it to you...wait, i think the FSM put it best:

get this into your thick heads: woman = person. man = person. Samey = Samey

Maybe you need to look in a different chapter of that biology book you use to read about evolution. Man and Woman not "samey samey". Women can have babies and men can not....

4) Increased public disrespect for parents and authority in general.

eh...we need a balance here. there were times when there was far too much respect of authority.

Perhaps a mirror is in order?

5) Acceleration of juvenile delinquency, promiscuity, and rebellion.

...rebellion is a good thing, this is a country founded on rebellion.
delinquency and promiscuity...well, delinquency we can deal with, but there isn't too much to show that promiscuity has gone up recently...

but do you know what does increase promiscuity? abstinence only sex-ed

Your comment is on a completely different topic. Dr Zimmerman is talking about the basic laws of society. From the OP "violent crime has also increased 560% since 1960"

From the OP "since 1960 and illegitimate births were up 419% by 1990. In 2005 36.9 % of all births were to unmarried women."

6) Refusal of people with traditional marriages to accept family responsibilities.

...more veiled gay jabbing! people in all marriages should accepted family responsibilities..

You have a positive talent for creating things that aren't there. Did you learn that form studying evolution?

That statement explicitly addresses "people with traditional marriages". It does not define a nontraditional marriage. What it refers to is the fact that a lot of children are no longer raised by there parents. And dead beat Dads that do not provide for them. It says what it says.

7) Growing desire for and acceptance of adultery.

...there isn't a growing acceptance of adultery. everyone i know is disgusted by the idea.

Obviously there is or the divorce rates wouldn't be so high. What people do is more indicative, than what they say sometimes...

According to Peggy Vaughan, author of "The Monogamy Myth," first published in 1989 by Newmarket Press (third edition published 2003).
Conservative infedelity statistics estimate that "60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an extramarital affair. These figures are even more significant when we consider the total number of marriages involved, since it's unlikely that all the men and women having affairs happen to be married to each other. If even half of the women having affairs (or 20 percent) are married to men not included in the 60 percent having affairs, then at least one partner will have an affair in approximately 80 percent of all marriages. With this many marriages affected, it's unreasonable to think affairs are due only to the failures and shortcomings of individual husbands or wives."

www.womansavers.com...

8) Increasing interest in and spread of sexual perversions and sex-related crimes.

...ah, another veiled jab at homosexuals

Not veiled at all, this time it does mention perversions.

The Greek Historian Polybius recorded that Rome was also riddled with pederasty (literally “boy-love”), which refers to an intimate relationship between a boy and an adult male outside his family. Google Books

In a similar but modern fashion:

AFFECTING CHILDREN

100,000 websites offer illegal child pornography
Child pornography generates $3 billion annually
90% of 8-16 year olds have viewed porn online (most while doing homework)
Average age of first internet exposure to pornography is 11 years old
Largest consumer of internet pornography 12-17 age group
One in five children ages 10–17 has received a sexual solicitation over the Internet.
Three million of the visitors to adult websites in September 2000 were age 17 or younger.

AFFECTING ADULTS
20% of men admit accessing pornography at work
13% of women admit accessing pornography at work
53% of Promise Keeper men viewed pornography the previous week in one study
10% of adults ADMIT to having internet sexual addiction (Internet Pornography Statistics: 2003

www.womansavers.com...

this whole thing is basically a voicing of the virulent ideas of groups like the "moral majority"

Hardly ! Maybe you missed that the author of the study was noted Harvard Sociologist and Historian Dr. Carle Zimmerman. His book, "Family and Civilization," is a scholarly work, pure history, sociology, and science. Far from being current rhetoric from the "religious right," the book was published in 1947.

it's ridiculous, the true reason we're getting more messed up is a lack of personal responsibility and hubris as well as general greed.

Good points which were mentioned, more symptoms of the breakdown of the family.





[edit on 4/24/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by marg6043

Originally posted by marg6043
While I agree with part of your OP I got hit hart with you views of marriage and women.

I don't think you view of a women place in society is submissive, barefooted and pregnant (by a husband) while mentally abused and unable to get away from a marriage that only benefit one side of what should be a partnership.

I don't think that either. I also don't think the traditional marriage roles are anything like what you just described. It sounds more like unisex propaganda to me. Men are naturally more muscular and aggressive, designed to be providers. Women are care takers by design, if not what are breasts for? It says nothing about intelligence or capability. Women can be providers, men can use a bottle of formula. Yet it is a compromise.

Originally posted by marg6043
Anyway if you look at the decline of our society you should see that our own government has a lot to do with it so blaming the decline on religious base is just a small part of the problem.

I think they certainly do have a lot to do with it. They corrupted to the core by lobbys. And our leaders morality examples aren't very good either.

Care to share some examples of how you think the government is contributing to the downfall of society?

Originally posted by marg6043
Perhaps you should look at the decline of religious teaching in this nations since the birth of the megamulitibillion dollar empire that religious organizations has become so commercialized religion has become the decline of meaningful religious teachers and leaders.

I think you have a valid point here as well. The true church is not an organization, it is a fellowship of the spirit.



[edit on 4/23/2008 by Bigwhammy]

The US welfare system is helping to cause single parenting.

my mother left my dad and turned into an alcoholic. She relied on
welfare to get by, she got hepatitis with her reckless lifestyle, now she's receiving disability money, her boyfriend also, she still drinks and smokes, goes to garage sales, happy little life provided by the govt.

If there was no welfare system, she could have never lived that kind of life and maybe she would have thought twice and did her motherly duty.
My dad was the single parent who raised us, he never asked one thing from the govt.

But so many single moms use all kinds of govt funded programs, like child care. Its too easy for people to do whatever they want without thinking of the consequences.

Good points which were mentioned, more symptoms of the breakdown of the family.

Yes, yes, indeed. Where did the happy little nuclear family of the 50's go to? I think everybody here has notice by this thread that all of this points to the human need to have 'pleasure', sex, drugs, money, power. Notice I did not say 'happy'. True happiness can only occur through things that can be seen on the inside, such as community serivce.

When I say happiness and community service in the same sentance, you much think I'm crazy. But that is because society has taughet you things like impure relationships, money, and power will bring you happiness, but they don't. Those pleasures will never truly satisfy you, you will always want more more more. But with true happiness, you will be acually 'happy'. I doubt that you have experienced 'true happiness' much, neither have I.

But we must all learn, to the better part of our community, to act resopsible. I teach a week-long leadership training course in the summer, and I drill over constant hours of leadership presentations, that there is one reocurring theme: Servant Leadership.

To show people the right way, you must show them first. You do not tell people how to throw a baseball, you show them, etc...

Look at Mother Tereasa. Servant Leadership, before you lead others, you must be able to lead yourself. Some of the Worlds best leaders were servant leaders.

My 2 cents and a little Brain Food
Willie

Two generations ago a family was able to live the American dream, own a home raise a family and provide with all the needs to support that family on one salary alone.

It was a mother a father and grandparents.

Now a family can not longer survive on one person salary unless you are fortunately enough to have wealth, middle class is almost obsolete and the poverty in our nation when it comes to income has grown.

We made more money but have to work more often with two salaries or three to make ends meet.

Because our own capitalistic government has not been able to keep up the nations growing inflation with matching salaries, forcing families to split in order to be able to work.

We have more jobs now in service sector than in manufacturing, we have more educated people now that we did in our parents and grandparents time but they made comparatively less that they did when faced with inflation.

We have been geared to become consumers because that is the base of our economy of today, America is not longer a supporter and producer of wealth.

You are an intelligent person you know exactly what is ailing our nation and lack of religion or lack of morals is just a small part of the whole problem.

Religion and faith can feed a soul but doesn't feed and empty stomach.



[edit on 23-4-2008 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043


Good post! I agree with just about everything you said Marge. My dads dad built a house and supported a family of 5 kids as an electrician. His wife never had to get a job to make ends meet. Now some people have to both work to survive today but others do it for a "lifestyle". I don't think a BMW is a good trade for witnessing your kids childhood. I think it is a major cause of increased teen disillusionment.

There is a connection to faith in the sense that our politicians have been corrupted by greed. They have forsaken higher ideals to win. Our politicians sold out the middle class. We never should have given away our manufacturing base to China. Sure we get cheap stuff. But if we fight a war with China our troops will be naked

Yes, Bigwhammy, I see the biggest problem affecting our nation is the greed of corporate America influencing us the citizens.

Funny but I do not put the blame on lack of religion because people of faith will never lose their faith, but the greedy will always be greedy.

The same greed has made our world a very competitive one we can never be isolationist, I agree that the nuclear family and family values has gone down the drain but guess what still work for many at least it did for me and my husband and our children, we kept the family together in good times and bad times, I know that is has work for many others.

We are capable of doing everything and still have time for our children's need, is just how we prioritize those needs.



[edit on 23-4-2008 by marg6043]

Things are geting messed up north of the border aswell. I'd say we may be in a slightly beter position now, but you're going to take most of us down with you .

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
That's quite a leap since it specifically says Divorce. I know this might be a stretch for your way of thinking... maybe when it says divorce, it means divorce?

i meant the subtext, not translation. my bad. seriously, it's the same argument...

Nearly two-thirds of today's marriages will end in divorce or separation. Forty-five percent of all first marriages end in divorce.

and that leads to the degradation of society how?

how about this: we stop telling kids that marriage is the only way people can have sex. then we can say that marriage is reserved for those people that want to spend their lives together

odd note: gays hold marriage quite sacredly, don't they? 1 divorce case with all the gay marriages (so far). and they're fighting very hard for the right to get married. maybe you have an unlikely ally there.

Irrelevant erroneous comment. That's not what the traditional meaning of the marriage ceremony is. It goes all the way back to Abraham's first covenant with God in Genesis. It's talking about a lifetime bond.

marriage predates that. marriage was a sumerian custom well before abram (later abraham) left ur.

it was not at all an irrelevant erroneous comment and your response was nothing but an ignorant view of the history of marriage.

Maybe you need to look in a different chapter of that biology book you use to read about evolution. Man and Woman not "samey samey". Women can have babies and men can not....

yes, but in terms of rights and privileges, they are the same. men and women are equal, the only difference are, as you said, superficial biological ones.

women deserve the exact same rights, thus the importance of feminism to shrug off the yoke of sexism

Your comment is on a completely different topic. Dr Zimmerman is talking about the basic laws of society.

which ones?
i mean, "the basic laws of society" are actually quite arbitrary products of the zeitgeist and subject to change.

From the OP "violent crime has also increased 560% since 1960"

and it's been going down since the nineties...

and what does this have to do with marriage and "traditional values"?
it seems like more evidence that "traditional values" have utterly failed us and that we need more enlightened values that rely on compassion and empathy instead of on archaic foundations

From the OP "since 1960 and illegitimate births were up 419% by 1990. In 2005 36.9 % of all births were to unmarried women."

how does this deal with promiscuity? promiscuity is the number of partners you have sex with, not whether or not your child is born in or out of wedlock

That statement explicitly addresses "people with traditional marriages". It does not define a nontraditional marriage.

it implies there's a difference.

What it refers to is the fact that a lot of children are no longer raised by there parents. And dead beat Dads that do not provide for them. It says what it says.

and people have done great things without being raised in traditional households. there's nothing to show that a traditional household is inherently better than a nontraditional one.

Obviously there is or the divorce rates wouldn't be so high. What people do is more indicative, than what they say sometimes...

ah, but you're indicating that divorce = adultery

do you call the woman who divorces her abusive husband who routinely batters her an adulteress when she marries?

alright, i'm snipping a lot. i just want to know where the causation is.

Hardly ! Maybe you missed that the author of the study was noted Harvard Sociologist and Historian Dr. Carle Zimmerman. His book, "Family and Civilization," is a scholarly work, pure history, sociology, and science. Far from being current rhetoric from the "religious right," the book was published in 1947.

ah, then it's early religious right. the religious right was well established by the late 40s...
remember prohibition? one big group behind it was the religious right.

Good points which were mentioned, more symptoms of the breakdown of the family.

...there's no causation
at all

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by Bigwhammy Nearly two-thirds of today's marriages will end in divorce or separation. Forty-five percent of all first marriages end in divorce.

and that leads to the degradation of society how?

Dr Zimmerman simply pointed out the consistent historical trend that as great societies advance they have weakening family structures and usually collapse. We are following that trend with our families. Politics and economics are also following suit. We are following the same profile.

Dr Zimmerman said,

The child is born into a family and sees the world throughits eyes. His introduction to civilization is through the family. At first he is only a child in a system of social relations consisting of a unity of husband and wife, parent and child.

(Familiy & Civilization p.1)

In the latest studies on the effects of divorce on children, the most conservative statistics say 25% of children from divorce do have serious social, emotional, or psychological problems (in contrast to only 10% of children from intact families). In the study by Judith Wallerstein, she found:

that a significant minority of children has permanent scars that linger through adolescence and well into adulthood. Such scars are seen as depression, delinquency, poor grades, fear of failure, fear of commitment, and fear of following their parents’ path.

www.divorceinfo.com...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how about this: we stop telling kids that marriage is the only way people can have sex. then we can say that marriage is reserved for those people that want to spend their lives together

We are telling them that… that is part of the problem.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
marriage predates that. marriage was a sumerian custom well before abram (later abraham) left ur.it was not at all an irrelevant erroneous comment and your response was nothing but an ignorant view of the history of marriage.

Yes it was irrelevant and your reply is again. The text you were commenting on said “traditional marriage ceremony”. The topic is "The Decline of America". Anyone reasonable will assume that in America that refers to a Judeo Christian ceremony. Do you practice Sumerian marriage ceremonies in your family?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

yes, but in terms of rights and privileges, they are the same. men and women are equal, the only difference are, as you said, superficial biological ones. women deserve the exact same rights, thus the importance of feminism to shrug off the yoke of sexism

I know it’s not politically correct, but it is historical fact. Dr Zimmerman found that strong feminist movements were an observable symptom of the impending doom of a society. Like I said in the OP, the truth isn’t always popular.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
which ones?
i mean, "the basic laws of society" are actually quite arbitrary products of the zeitgeist and subject to change.

And [violent crime] it's been going down since the nineties...
and what does this have to do with marriage and "traditional values"?
it seems like more evidence that "traditional values" have utterly failed us and that we need more enlightened values that rely on compassion and empathy instead of on archaic foundations

Is this really so hard? Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not kill. There are some pretty universal morals. For instance, the Ten Commandments cover them all pretty well.

No - we are failing the traditional values - they aren't failing us. It’s connected to families in that the rising crime rates since the 1960s strongly correlate to the rising break down of families. The damage to children is obvious. There had never been a school shooting when I was growing up. Now almost all schools have metal detectors. What happened? Kids are more violent.

Violent crime is still up from 160.9 in 1960 to 473.5 in 2006 (offenses per 100,000 population) And the reason for the decrease since the 1990s might be the skyrocketing prison population.

2,258,983 prisoners were held in Federal or State prisons or in local jails – an increase of 2.9% from yearend 2005, less than the average annual growth of 3.4% since year end 1995.

www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how does this deal with promiscuity? promiscuity is the number of partners you have sex with, not whether or not your child is born in or out of wedlock

I think there is a relationship between sleeping around and illegitimate children; sorry if that was too much of a stretch for you. In 2002 a fifth of all 20 something females had multiple sexual partners that year. That is nothing however compared to their male counterparts where a third were bouncing from bed to bed. Source CDC report on Drug Use and Sexual Behaviors Reported by Adults

Another very recent CDC study show STD rates among young people are up as well:


Washington Post

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and people have done great things without being raised in traditional households. there's nothing to show that a traditional household is inherently better than a nontraditional one.

Dr Zimmerman’s study isn’t about exceptions to the rule; it’s about general trends that are indicators of the decline of a nation. Your pointing out of exceptions doesn’t diminish historical facts.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
ah, but you're indicating that divorce = adultery
do you call the woman who divorces her abusive husband who routinely batters her an adulteress when she marries?
alright, i'm snipping a lot. i just want to know where the causation is.

Are you arguing that adultery doesn’t lead to divorce? Good luck with that line of reasoning.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
ah, then it's early religious right. the religious right was well established by the late 40s...
remember prohibition? one big group behind it was the religious right.

Dr Zimmerman was not a religious man he just examined the data. It’s just historical fact.

...there's no causation at all

You can’t see how broken homes, illegitimacy and poor role models lead to increased violence and crime? Well it is happening all around you. Open your eyes. Dr Zimmerman is quite a bit more qualified than you are madness.

From the first chapter of Dr Zimmerman's “Family and Civilization” p.18

During this period,(late 19th early 20th century) and up until the present confusion, the main integrative theories of family sociology were centered around the evolutionary, or continuous-movement-in-one-direction, school of thought. Since continuous movement in one direction involved the shucking off or negation of familistic bonds, the dominant sociological family theories were of this nature. Some held that we must find the perfect happiness or ultimate good in easy divorce; a second group, that we must free the family from patriarchism; a third, in eliminating the burdens of childrearing; a fourth, in securing the proper sex adaptation between partners; a fifth, in increasing individual happiness by the proper mating selection and practices; and many others in various eliminations and reforms. All of these ideas have as their fountainhead the evolutionary school of thought, which has stolen good intentions and scientific analysis, mixed them with progress, and claimed them as the sole property of the school of continuous change in one direction, as regards the family.

…. to p. 19

However, as we shall show in this work, disintegration of the family
into contractual and noninstitutional forms is so devastating to high
cultural society that these atypical forms can last only a short while and
will in time have to be corrected. The family reappears by counterrevolutions.All of these facts strike directly at most of the family sociology which seeks to hold that the “unrestrained individual” is the end of society and the family his private agent.

[edit on 4/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Selling sex and corruption to your Kids

This would be bad enough – if corporate America were just following and marketing the basest instincts of confused, unsupervised teenagers. But they are not following, they are leading – downward. Exhibits A and B: the "mook" and the "midriff," two creations of this corporate youth-marketing consortium.

The "mook" is a marketing caricature of the wild, uninhibited, outrageous and amoral male sex-maniac. "Take Howard Stern," says Rushkoff, "perhaps the original and still king of all mooks. Look how Viacom leverages him across their properties. He is syndicated on 50 of Viacom's Infinity radio stations. His weekly TV show is broadcast on Viacom's CBS. His number one best-selling autobiography was published by Viacom's Simon and Shuster, then released as a major motion picture by Viacom's Paramount Pictures, grossing $40 million domestically and millions more on videos sold at Viacom's Blockbuster video." He adds: "There is no mook in nature. He is a creation designed to capitalize on the testosterone-driven madness of adolescence. He grabs them below the belt and then reaches for their wallets."

A great deal of MTV's programming features and markets to the "mook" in America's boys. For instance, a major venue of the mook is professional wrestling – the most-watched type of television among adolescent boys in America today.

OK, what about the "midriff"?

Girls, says Rushkoff, "get dragged down there right along with boys. The media machine has spit out a second caricature. … The midriff is no more true to life than the mook. If he is arrested in adolescence, she is prematurely adult. If he doesn't care what people think of him, she is consumed by appearances. If his thing is crudeness, hers is sex. The midriff is really just a collection of the same old sexual cliches, but repackaged as a new kind of female empowerment. 'I am midriff, hear me roar. I am a sexual object, but I'm proud of it.'"

And what is the purpose of these debauched role models for America's future, fashioned out of market research compiled by "culture spies" hired by corporations to predict what the likely next step down – the next shock wave disguised as authentic "cool" – will be for the MTV generation?

Why, to sell kids more stuff, of course.

www.worldnetdaily.com...

You're so right Bigwhammy!
I was thinking about it this morning.
Has the sexual revolution been more effective in England than America???
Gay marriage (at least) seems to be more acceptable there.

We are SUCH a different country in many ways than our anscestors.
We can buy more, but it costs SOOO much sometimes(mentally AND physically) to leave our children with strangers.
One daycare I worked at FOR ONE DAY was so inept, I quit THAT day and never took my (then one year old) back!

Traditional families provide for an equally traditional childhood for our children.