Ex-Pentagon arms tester belittles missile defense

Ex-Pentagon arms tester belittles missile defense

www.reuters.com

WASHINGTON - The former top U.S. weapons tester told Congress on Wednesday the Pentagon was wasting what may add up to hundreds of billions of dollars to build what he described as a largely useless anti-ballistic missile shield.

"Missile defense is the most difficult development the Pentagon has ever attempted," said Philip Coyle, who served from 1994 to 2001 as an assistant secretary of defense and the head of Pentagon arms testing.

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Coyle and other prominent critics testified the Pentagon and contractors such as Boeing Co, Lockheed Martin Corp and Northrop Grumman Corp had made scant progress toward being able to defeat ballistic missiles despite federal outlays of perhaps $150 billion since then-President Ronald Reagan made his famous "Star Wars" speech in 1983.

President Bush is seeking $13.2 billion for all missile defense programs in fiscal 2009 and a projected total of $62.5 billion over the coming five years, according to the private Center for Defense Information.

Such a valuable project and so much money consumed so far and still they need billions of Dollars to make it work perfectly? This news would definitely make some countries happy.

www.reuters.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

We learn about live nukes being flown over our own country by our own aircraft in weapons-ready configuration just last year, then we find out that Ballistic missile fuses were sent to China in 2006 by accident, then all the other incredible blunders which we don't know about (some of which we are only learning about now, some we will never know about)..

This comes now at a time when we have a huge military and contractor fighting-force in Iraq, military commitments for the foreseeable future GLOBALLY which don't have an end in sight, a military that is in general stretched to it's limits, and people in Iraq who are there right now in their fifth and sixth tours of duty. Pretty ridiculous.

I, myself, am ex-air force and I don't exactly like pointing out these degradory facts about the military but the truth is the truth here. Beyond all the nuclear blunders and other accidents there are huge dollars going down the tubes to which we have no idea where it is going (the black budget). These operations are un-checked and have no oversite past congress, which means the military can do whatever it wants (we know this because it has ended in military members dying before).

I once knew a radar operator who worked at Little Rock AFB who told me that a bearing or other small component had snapped and that the radar couldn't rotate. Instead of taking the radar down long enough to repair the damage, they installed a brand new 7 figure-cost radar system. I can probably guess a few reasons why they would do this, but these are OUR tax dollars in action being thrown down the tubes. This is our children's livelihoods being lost to economic neglect and malpractice. Where does the rabbit hole of stupidity end? We are likely only seeing the tip of the iceberg here folks with the missile defense fraud and that is the truth.

A nuclear warhead reenters the earth's atmosphere at around mach 10 or 12 I think (it's some ridiculous mind-numbing figure). Then you are firing a projectile to knock down that warhead from a moving point also (the earth) which travels at an extreme velocity and you are trying to hit this other moving object that is traveling over 10 times the speed of sound and is about the length of an office-desk. IT IS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE and that is with some of the best technology available. Recent weapons systems have proven fairly reliable in testing but NOONE REALLY KNOWS how it would work in actuallity. These were all extremely small-scale tests compared to actually knocking out nuclear warheads..

The kill vehicle for one of the missile defense projects being installed here in Alaska was tested a couple years ago on a full scale but it failed (miserably).

Also, where do these big defense contractors begin and the government end? All things we with children should be concerned about..

-ChriS

good to know that american missile defence is failure and i hope it fails miserably .....


it is a threat to global stability and peace.....

USA is increasingly being a threat to world peace

The claims that AMB defense is 'impossible' today is largely fictitious given the fact that both the USA and the USSR managed such technologies in the early and mid 60's both deploying such systems with one side just choosing to dismantle it's ( the USA) while the USSR continued to expand and develop it for the next forty years.

It's well summed up by the following extract:

In the late 1960s the U.S. sacrificed its 20-year technological advantage in ABM defenses on the altar of "arms control." As Russian sources now admit, the Soviet General Staff was in total control of Soviet "arms control" proposals and negotiations, subject to Politburo review, which was largely pro forma. The Soviet military's objective was to gain as much advantage as possible from "arms control" agreements (SALT).

Similarly, SALT did not constrain the buildup in Soviet strategic offensive missile and air forces. The Soviets negotiated the terms of the 1972 Interim agreement and the SALT Treaty to ratify acquisition of the missile and bomber arsenals required to satisfy their nuclear targeting objectives. Hence 80 to 90 percent of Soviet ICBM forces and roughly half their total arsenal were designed for counterforce strikes, an outcome SALT was supposed to prevent.

CIA bears primary responsibility for the intelligence contribution to U.S. self deception on SALT negotiations with erroneous assessments of Soviet: nuclear doctrine and strategy; strategic offensive missile force development; ABM programs; the Politburo's motivations for entering into SALT and the role of the Soviet military in the "arms control" process. U.S. documents show that all of U.S. President Johnson's top national security advisers at the time shared CIA's erroneous estimates of the Politburo's motivations, policies, and objectives, in whole or for the most part.

www.jinsa.org...

And what capabilities did the US ABM defense system have in the late 60's and why was it shut down if there were no fundamental problems?

When operating, both radars combined to form an integrated layered defence. Incoming targets were acquired and tracked by the PAR and their computed impact point was determined. Once it had detected an incoming RV, it only had 6 minutes to destroy it. Based on the computed impact point, the target information was handed over to the MSR which then tracked the RV target once within range. Powerful computer systems (for the day) then determined which warheads were to be intercepted. The appropriate missiles were launched (which were co-located with the MSR), with the MSR tracking both missile and target with the associated ground based computers guiding the missile to an intercept. Warheads on the missiles were detonated by ground command.

An effort was made by the Army in 1966 to acquire production funding but such funding was not actually forthcoming until 1968. In the meantime, McNamarra was forced into a corner. All the objections that he had raised over the years against an ABM system had been resolved and he found himself in a position where his reasons for non-deployment were no longer valid, and he could no longer deny funding. So he started questioning the deployment.

In June 1967 China exploded their first thermo-nuclear device and so a new threat was perceived to exist to the USA. It was felt that they would have missiles with a range capable of reaching the continental US within a number of years. It was also during this time that the USA and the Soviets were having talks regarding arms limitation. From a political perspective, it was felt not advisable to deploy an ABM system designed to intercept Soviet ICBMs. So Johnson and McNamara re-orientated the ABM system to counter the perceived Chinese threat instead. Nike-X died and Sentinel was born

www.paineless.id.au...

With Eisenhower departing the White House, and being replaced with Kennedy, the funding situation for Nike Zeus did not improve. Although funding was made available in 1961, it was not spent, and no further funding was provided in 1962 and 1963. Kennedy and his Defence Secretary (McNamara) both did not like Nike Zeus and argued against it. The Army presented Nike Zeus as a system that could protect the US, however, Kennedy and McNamara felt that although the system was viable against missiles that existed at that time, it could not cope with any future missile threats and so was not worth implementing.

In 1963, Project Defender from AARPA presented a look at the future of radar, data processing and rocket propulsion. With new improved technologies in these areas, AARPA felt that a much improved ABM could be developed. (AARPA was already in the process of showing the feasibility of phased array radars) As a result, AARPA presented a number of options. NZ-0 was the current Nike Zeus system, NZ-1 was the same as NZ-0 but had a higher velocity missile for endoatmospheric interceptions, NZ-2 had a faster missile and phased arrays, while NX used faster missiles, phased array radars and most importantly, faster computers. NX was known as Nike-X and was the preferred option. Nike Zeus was dead, and Nike-X was born. Needless to say, the Army was not happy.

www.paineless.id.au...

As the following indicates this is hardly as 'impossible' a dream ( the bullet with a bullet 'problem' ) as commonly presented by those in the US who wish to fundamentally undermine the capability of the USA to prosecute , and survive as modern industrial nation, a nuclear war.

(2)On 4 March 1961 the V-1000 achieved a world first - the destruction of the re-entry vehicle of an R-12 IRBM. This was followed by the destruction of an R-5 re-entry vehicle. In all, there were 11 launches with military warheads, plus launches of developmental warheads. The S2TA variant used an infrared-homing self-guiding high-explosive warhead and was designed by Storozhenko at the GOI State Optical Institute in Lengingrad. It was capable not only of determining the moment for warhead detonation, but also was capable of guiding the anti-ballistic missile independently using an on-board computer. The R2TA version used a radio-guided explosive warhead, with two types of proximity fuses used to determine the correct moment for warhead detonation. These were the G2TA, a radio ranging system, developed by Bondarenko and an optical system, developed by Emdin at GOI. Flight tests of the V-1000 with a nuclear warhead designed at Chelyabinsk-70 were also carried out.

www.astronautix.com...

And yes, the US demonstrated the same capability:

Bell's proposal would have to deal with bombers flying at 500 mph (800 km/h) or more at altitudes of up to 60,000 ft (20,000 m). At these speeds, even a supersonic rocket is no longer fast enough to be simply aimed at the target. The missile must "lead" the target to ensure it hits it before it runs out of fuel. This means that the missile and target cannot be tracked in a single radar, increasing the complexity of the system. One part was well developed. By this point, the US had considerable experience with lead-calculating analog computers, starting with the British Kerrison Predictor and a series of increasingly capable U.S. designs.

For Nike, three radars were used. The acquisition radar searched for a target to be handed over to the Target Tracking Radar (TTR) for tracking. The Missile Tracking Radar (MTR) tracked the missile by way of a transponder, as the missile's radar signature alone was not sufficient. The MTR also commanded the missile by way of Pulse-position modulation, the pulses were received, decoded and then amplified back for the MTR to track. Once the tracking radars were locked the system was able to work automatically following launch, barring any unexpected occurrences. The computer compared the two radars directions, along with information on the speeds and distances, to calculate the intercept point and steer the missile. The entirety of this system was provided by the Bell System's electronics firm, Western Electric.

Some small-scale work to use Nike Zeus as an anti-satellite weapon (ASAT) was carried out from 1962 until the project was cancelled in favor of Thor based systems in 1966. In the end, neither development would enter service. However, the Nike Zeus system did demonstrate a hit-to-kill capability against ballistic missiles in the early 1960s. See National Missile Defense and anti-ballistic missile systems.

en.wikipedia.org...

Well i hope this helps to clear up this rubbish about ABM defenses being 'impossible' or requiring the expenditure of hundreds of billions of dollars. Fact is they managed it decades ago without any massive expenditure of resources and if such money are allocated to modern projects it's clearly just another corporate military industrial complex rip-off of the American tax payer as allowed by the house and senate.

Stellar



[edit on 17-4-2008 by StellarX]

Originally posted by BlasteR

Yes it is disappointing to know the current capability of the missile defense system that too after spending so many billions of Dollars and the testings. We may never know how many more billions they need to perfect the technology or how many more billions will go to some other black project under the name of missile defense system. As you said we may never know how many black projects are running right now and the billions of dollars alloted for them.

To be honest I don't think T.P.T.B. really care how well it actually works, just so long as they can keep dishing out billions of dollars to their pals and relations in the arms industry.

Originally posted by manson_322
good to know that american missile defence is failure and i hope it fails miserably .....

it is a threat to global stability and peace.....
USA is increasingly being a threat to world peace

Your right in saying it is a threat to world peace, for america to have a shield. Its amzing how americans do not see that.

Whether it is rubbish or not, i would not believe them, as this could be just disinfo.

Originally posted by manson_322

It is not a failed project or a complete failure; in fact the US is planing to develop a missile defense system to be placed in space. It is survival of the fittest and they are least bothered about the global peace.

reply to post by StellarX


Thanks for that detailed reply.

I have several thoughts on this.

The missile defense system is based on only a very few missiles being launched by a nation such as N. Korea or Iran. A Russian or Chinese launch with a massive attack would be impossible to defend against. They also use decoy warheads to confuse missile defense radars.

The old anti-missile missile system protected specific target, not nations. The Russian system is based around Moscow to protect that city. Let's just say $150 billion has been spent for the system. If it can knock down a couple of missiles heading for Seattle/Chicago or Atlanta/Miami (these would be the ranges of N Korea or Iran rockets), what would it cost to rebuild these cities. More than $150 billion, I guarantee you. Twisted economics, yes, but this is government economics and this is how it works.

Whenever I read an article about waste/fraud I wonder what underscores the comments. This former top guy didn't just develop a sense of right from wrong one day. He didn't wake up and tell himself "I need to tell my local Congressman and the media how much money I wasted in my career". Something happened to make him bitter and now he can strike back at the agency or people who did him wrong. I'm curious what motivates this.

reply to post by hinky


Yes I am curious too, to know what made him reveal this one fine day?

Originally posted by manson_322
good to know that american missile defence is failure and i hope it fails miserably .....

it is a threat to global stability and peace.....

USA is increasingly being a threat to world peace

How is a threat? Please explain how 10 interceptors is a thread to world peace? The Russians have way more missiles than we have interceptors. If the US was going to deploy say 10000 interceptors then you may have a point, otherwise its just ignorant rhetoric you are spouting :shk:


DO the math eh?

reply to post by Enceladus


Yes what is the motivation? The guy was a Clinton era appointee for starters so why now? maybe he is auditioning for a role in the government if Obama or Clinton wins? Im thinking its nothing but personal gain at work.

This has nothing to do with defending our country but Everything to do with campaign promises and back-scratching your defense contractor buddies.

Originally posted by TXRabbit
This has nothing to do with defending our country but Everything to do with campaign promises and back-scratching your defense contractor buddies.

Eh? The Aegis sytems works. THAAD is sorting itself out and interceptors at Ft. Greely need more work for sure but something is much better than nothing.

Its funny if missiles were flying right now, the same critics would be asking why the government did nothing I also know that alot of the critics are NOT on the west coast which would be a prime NK tagert

Thats good news that the missile defense system is useless. That means Putin can lay this issue to rest and let the Americans waste billions on a system deemed useless. Putin has no good argument to create a new arms race against us if this system is a fad.

Originally posted by manson_322
good to know that american missile defence is failure and i hope it fails miserably .....

it is a threat to global stability and peace.....

USA is increasingly being a threat to world peace

Well I can see you are still spouting out your plain to see hatred of America and as in other posts and threads of yours...your hatred of the average American citizen.

Gee, us evil demonic Americans want to set up a (DEFENSIVE) missile shield.Funny how you see us as the threat,yet I see India as a threat.Not in the way you see America as a threat though.Who is more of a threat to the world?.....the U.S. making defensive missiles or a country such as India who can't seem to get their population and pollution under control.Wow you guys provide the world with more hungry mouths to feed and have pollution for everyone to swim and breath in.

[edit on 17-4-2008 by CaptGizmo]

[edit on 17-4-2008 by CaptGizmo]

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by manson_322
good to know that american missile defence is failure and i hope it fails miserably .....

it is a threat to global stability and peace.....

USA is increasingly being a threat to world peace

How is a threat? Please explain how 10 interceptors is a thread to world peace? The Russians have way more missiles than we have interceptors. If the US was going to deploy say 10000 interceptors then you may have a point, otherwise its just ignorant rhetoric you are spouting :shk:


DO the math eh?

do research yourself , THAAD and Sm-3 can easily be upgraded to anti-ICBm capabilities okay

THAAD claimed to soon defend against ICBMs
THAAD claimed to soon defend against ICBMs

The Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) system could possibly defend against intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMS), says its program manager, Army Col. Charles Driessnack. According to Driessnack, this is because THAAD’s radar is “outperforming what we thought it was supposed to do.” But this anti-ICBM capability will not be tested until FY 09 at the earliest. In the meantime, the program continues to bulk up its ability against shorter-range targets. THAAD is slated to undergo flight testing next year, with two controlled test flights to be followed by a seeker characteristic test which could be an intercept. As early as 2005, THAAD could undergo two flight intercept attempts. This version of THAAD has been modified extensively from the THAAD program of 1999, which did so poorly during development that observers dubbed it a “rush to failure.”
(Aviation Week & Space Technology, Aug. 23/30, 2004
www.cdi.org...

More to it in EU US is besides 10 GBI interceptors ( for witch some USA scientiest accuse US govrement of lying and saying that BGI can shoot down Russia ICBM ) US is making preparations to deploy foward looking X-band radar in southeastern Europe, possibly in Turkey, the Caucasus or the Caspian Sea region.



More to it(some expert opinions) SM-3 is America's most capable ABM system for intermediate range balistic missiles and is widely deployed and being deployed on 50 of Burke destroyers and 25-30 Ticoderaga cruisers which will in time and planed SM-3 upgrades gradualy evolve to ICBM / ASAT capable system all wired in some huge network with satelites and EW radars etc .. so by making such hudge MOBILE ICBM / ASAT capable force
there are two pdf files in this thread which are US scientists accusations and sm-3 modernaztion plans to anti-Icbm capability
forum.warfare.ru...

[edit on 17-4-2008 by manson_322]

Originally posted by CaptGizmo

Originally posted by manson_322
good to know that american missile defence is failure and i hope it fails miserably .....

it is a threat to global stability and peace.....

USA is increasingly being a threat to world peace

Well I can see you are still spouting out your plain to see hatred of America and as in other posts and threads of yours...your hatred of the average American citizen.

[edit on 17-4-2008 by CaptGizmo]

[edit on 17-4-2008 by CaptGizmo]

please prove that i hate american citizens