for neo-nazi holocaust deniers

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I am confused as to your reasoning here, could you explain how you connect the Rothschild's with the Warburg's?

As far as I know, the Jewish banking families Rothschild-Warburg-Schiff have been more or less a triumvirate for at least a century.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The Rothschild's it should also be noted are monarchists, at least the remaining ones are, as well as British Nationalists.

The Britisch monarchy is subservient to the Rothschild dynasty and not the other way around. The British monarchs are little more than pawns.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Though I agree with you that there is no open conflict, it is not through general agreement, more a division of booty, plus and over-riding dimishment of the power of the Rothschilds during the two war period. This is certainly on the change, with the Rothschild's regaining their foothold fast. The reasons for the polarization of intention during the Roosevelt administration was the brilliant manipulation exacted by Churchill. It was short lived when it was realised that they had been paled off with a dud 'un in the shape and form of the Gehlen Organisation.

It's the first time I read this explanation, so I'll have to look into this later on.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I agree to some extent, with the qualifier that they both support economic immigration rather than free immigration.

Immigration serves two purposes. One purpose is cheap employees and another purpose is the atomisation of society.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Agree again to an extent...though Blair ain't no socialist.

Blair is member of the Labour party, otherwise known as the British socialists.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
If only more peopleeven knew they had a will!!! I think that the role of Bilderberg (and the such like) is often misinterpreted as a group of individuals that agree with each other, I don't necessarily think that they do...there would be far less machinations in the wider world if they did, but i do think that whereever possible they get together to divide responsibilities, but I also think that they will shaft each other royally given the right incentive.

I see Bilderbergers are just a bunch of extremely powerful people trying to allign their agenda with one another to further increase or consolidate their power. Obviously, there are too many big egos among them for them all to agree.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by OutoftheBoxthinker]

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
As far as I know, the Jewish banking families Rothschild-Warburg-Schiff have been more or less a triumvirate for at least a century.

Apart from them all having Jewish origins I fail to see any direct link, between Warburg-Schiff and the Rothschilds. Not to say it doesn't exist. Certainly British SIS used Kuhn Loeb as an their US agent in transferring funds to Kerensky but not sure how the Rothschild's fitted into that. Anything you can add to help me would be highly appreciated.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The Britisch monarchy is subservient to the Rothschild dynasty and not the other way around. The British monarchs are little more than pawns.

You are mistaken, though it was originally a symbiotic relationship and it is, given post-war changes in the power dynamic, somewhat more evenhanded, the Rothschild's are still highly reliant on the preservation of the British Monarchy. So while they may not work for the Monarchy, they consider it their role to preserve it.

Immigration serves two purposes. One purpose is cheap employees and another purpose is the atomisation of society.

Not to appear too 'dumb' can you explain to me, briefly on what you mean by 'atomisation'...I think we may agree on that, but would require a little more clarity if you don't mind.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Blair is member of the Labour party, otherwise known as the British socialists.

In name only...they are not socialists by mine and many of my fellow countrymen's definition and Blair most definately isn't.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Apart from them all having Jewish origins I fail to see any direct link, between Warburg-Schiff and the Rothschilds. Not to say it doesn't exist.

Solomon Loeb (1828 - 1903) had two daughters : Nina and Theresa. Nina married Paul Warburg (1868 - 1932) who himself was the spawn of a Warburg and an Oppenheim. Theresa married Jacob Schiff (1847 - 1920) and their daughter Frieda married Felix Warburg. Their daughter Carola married Walter M. Rothschild.

This little bit of family history illustrates how close these Jewish banking families truely were. Not only were there lots of intermarriages, they also shared political goals. For example, during WW1 the Jewish Recruitment Committee was headed by Edmund Sebag Montefiore and Lionel De Rothschild whereas the Jewish War Relief Committee was header by Jacob Schiff. See enclosed images.

- Jewish War Relief Committee
- Jewish Recruitment Committee

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

The Britisch monarchy is subservient to the Rothschild dynasty and not the other way around. The British monarchs are little more than pawns.

You are mistaken, though it was originally a symbiotic relationship and it is, given post-war changes in the power dynamic, somewhat more evenhanded, the Rothschild's are still highly reliant on the preservation of the British Monarchy. So while they may not work for the Monarchy, they consider it their role to preserve it.

The British monarchy barely has any power today. It continues to exist largely because of its symbolic power.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Immigration serves two purposes. One purpose is cheap employees and another purpose is the atomisation of society.

Not to appear too 'dumb' can you explain to me, briefly on what you mean by 'atomisation'...I think we may agree on that, but would require a little more clarity if you don't mind.

Traditional society was fairly homogenic and this homogenity led to a strong sense of unity and strength. By creating conflict in race, ideology and religion society loses its homogenity and becomes just a group of loosely associated individuals with conflicting interests. This seriously weakens the population as a whole.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Blair is member of the Labour party, otherwise known as the British socialists.

In name only...they are not socialists by mine and many of my fellow countrymen's definition and Blair most definately isn't.

Socialists are only socialists in name and conservatives are only conservatives in name. Modern politics is filled with this sort of Orwellian newspeak.

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
From the moment the Rockefeller-Morgan fraction and the Rothschild-Warburg fraction joined forces following the failure of the New Deal, national-socialism and fascism stood in clear oposition to the NWO agenda which was anti-traditional, anti-racist and anti-nationalist.

My current ongoing research indicates the Illuminati-Holy Roman Empire-O-WO-NWO sucessfully & simultaneously put Roosevelt & Hitler into power for the same time period, for similar reasons. I'll put in a url in a few minutes, coincidence or conspiracy? …reign of Hitler & Roosevelt the same …March 1933 to April 1945.
www.abovetopsecret.com... also, fight-tyranny.blogspot.com...
coffins

Any references to pro-fascist sympathies from prior to this time are pointless and deceptive unless viewed in the proper context. There was no greater enemy of the NWO than Hitler.

Are you familiar with the work of the neo-Nazis about Hitler, or the Hitler apologists?

[edit on 31-7-2008 by counterterrorist]

Originally posted by counterterrorist
My current ongoing research indicates the Illuminati-Holy Roman Empire-O-WO-NWO sucessfully & simultaneously put Roosevelt & Hitler into power for the same time period, for similar reasons.

The Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church were the old elite. The NWO is the new elite. The latter is responsible for the destruction of power of the first. Hitler was mostly alligned with the old elite, whereas Roosevelt was a pawn of the new elite.

Originally posted by counterterrorist

Any references to pro-fascist sympathies from prior to this time are pointless and deceptive unless viewed in the proper context. There was no greater enemy of the NWO than Hitler.

Are you familiar with the work of the neo-Nazis about Hitler, or the Hitler apologists?

Yes I am. The vast majority rejects the claims that Hitler was responsible for genocide and regard this claim as part of black-ops propaganda. They blame the NWO for attempting to destroy traditional Western civilisation and are both anti-zionist and anti-American.

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
The Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church were the old elite. The NWO is the new elite. The latter is responsible for the destruction of power of the first. Hitler was mostly alligned with the old elite, whereas Roosevelt was a pawn of the new elite.

Interesting view. However, I see the progression (and am currently researching the O-WO-NWO process of the last 2,000 years from the Apostle Paul (who apparently was NOT the Christianity of Jesus and James, but what became the STATE version of Christianity, thru the Illuminati, up to present.

Originally posted by counterterrorist

Are you familiar with the work of the neo-Nazis about Hitler, or the Hitler apologists?

reply by OutoftheBoxthinker:

Yes I am. The vast majority rejects the claims that Hitler was responsible for genocide and regard this claim as part of black-ops propaganda. They blame the NWO for attempting to destroy traditional Western civilisation and are both anti-zionist and anti-American.

As I mentioned a few posts back, (www.abovetopsecret.com...) just yesterday I came across the research that both Roosevelt and Hitler had some of the same companies and some of the same major players in common supporting them.

Had there been no bloodshed or hostility of any kind, Hitler, or 'Dolph' as KT prefers to call him ... perhaps might have been a fine leader whose life didn't end in heroin and speed addiction and alleged suicide (although, there are accounts he successfully escaped).

Many folks interpret Hitler as Germany's economic savior and forget that following Germany WWI slaughters and genocides Germany was bankrupted and in effect PURCHASED by the WO and NWO folks ... as it was again, after it's humiliating military defeat in WWII. However, because of it's intelligence, that is, inate intelligence, in going underground via Odessa and Bormann both working with Brown Brothers Harriman and Rockefeller interests, succeeded in the transition of the Third Reich into the Fourth, and the Fifth (beginning with WTC/911 -- basically a replay of the Reichstag fire provocation).


[edit on 31-7-2008 by counterterrorist]

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
From the moment the Rockefeller-Morgan fraction and the Rothschild-Warburg fraction joined forces following the failure of the New Deal, national-socialism and fascism stood in clear oposition to the NWO

The Rockefeller-Morgan and Rothschild-Warburg faction joined forces in the founding of the Federal Reserve Bank, which, along with Bank of England and Bundesbank, via their central bank collective, financed BOTH sides of both WWI and WWII, as they continue to finance both sides of all conflicts, today.

See Sutton's brilliant research: 'Wall Street & The Rise of Hitler' www.reformation.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.reformation.org...

-- totally ONLINE at
here's the table of contents:
Preface Introduction
Chapter 1 Wall Street Paves the Way for Hitler
Chapter 2 The Empire of I. G. Farben
Chapter 3 General Electric Funds Hitler
Chapter 4 Standard Oil Fuels World War II
Chapter 5 I.T.T Works Both Sides of the War
Chapter 6 Henry Ford and the Nazis
Chapter 7 Who Financed Adolf Hitler?
Chapter 8 Putzi: Friend of Hitler and Roosevelt
Chapter 9 Wall Street and the Nazi Inner Circle
Chapter 10 The Myth of "Sidney Warburg"
Chapter 11 Wall Street Nazi Collaboration in World War II
Chapter 12 Conclusions

here's an excerpt of a review of the book:

Makes Every Previous Book on World War II Obsolete.
Finally, a distinguished scholar has penetrated the cloak of falsehood, deception, and duplicity that for more than thirty years has protected one of the most incredible secrets of World War II: the support from key Wall Street financiers and other international bankers in subsidizing Hitler's rise to power.

Professor Antony C. Sutton proves that World War II was not only well planned, it was also extremely profitable—for a select group of financial insiders. Carefully tracing this closely guarded secret through original documents and eyewitness accounts, Sutton documents the roles played by J.P. Morgan, T. W. Lamont, the Rockefeller interests, General Electric Company, Standard Oil, National City Bank, Chase and Manhattan banks, Kuhn, Loeb and Company, and scores of other business elitists.

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler shows how the bloodiest, most destructive war in history was financed and promoted. It is sure to spark angry denials and heated debate.

See my day-old posts on Antony Sutton's work: First, from ‘Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution: How western capitalists funded Lenin, the Bolsheviks, and the Soviet Union-- by Antony C. Sutton, 1974’, at reformed-theology.org... & with hyperlinks, same text at www.modernhistoryproject.org...
& also at oneheartbooks.com...
& ONLINE AT reformed-theology.org...
sutton
www.reformation.org...

I'll be going out of town for about 8 days starting tomorrow (Friday), and may or may not have access to a computer, but I look forward to interacting upon my return. -- or -- if I have access to a computer, in my absence.


[edit on 31-7-2008 by counterterrorist]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
could you explain how you connect the Rothschild's with the Warburg's?

Paul Warburg, a German citizen, came over to the U.S. as a Rothschild agent in 1906. In 7 years he had founded and was in charge of the Federal Reserve. Not bad, for an immigrant. We now owe the Fed 9 trillion dollars, plus another 4 trillion because the same folks own Fannie Mae.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by counterterrorist]

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
As far as I know, the Jewish banking families Rothschild-Warburg-Schiff have been more or less a triumvirate for at least a century.

Again, if we go back to the original Jesus & James version of Christianity and regard Paul as the STATE interpretation, which is non-Christian, and trace Paul's STATE 'CHRISTIANITY' into the Roman and eventually into the Vatican bank -- and investigate the interaction of the STATE Christian i.e. Catholic bankers up thru Luther's Reformation, then trace the monied interests of the German Lutherian financiers (keeping in mind the founding of the Illuminati by a Jesuit Catholic)

-- and, we note that the Holy Roman Empire EXCLUDED Rome and was REALLY just Germany and it's provinces and neighboring territories ruled by Germans

THEN we're in a better position to see the interaction of the Vatican bankers, with the Illuminati bankers, and with the Jewish bankers.

This whole anti-semitism junket of blaming religion leaves me cold -- and I do not appreciate it ... just as I do not appreciate Islam being blamed for terrorism. We're more educated than that, at least I like to think so.

WHAT ARE YOUR MAIN RESEARCH INTERESTS? You seem very well informed and educated.

As to Hitler ranting and raving against the Jewish banking conspiracy it's kind of humorous, since Hitler was financed by the Jewish and Christian bankers.

Where Hitler's propaganda and understanding totally failed in a very obviously and lame way, is in blaming only Jewish bankers, and not blaming the Christian bankers with whom they partnered.

Trying to say capital or capitalism is 'Jewish' or 'Christian' is absurd propaganda.

What is interesting, and I'm in the middle of researching is the following, which may or may not be of interest to you.

There is a great body of research that Jesus was actually the last Ptolemy pharaoh -- his father was the head of the Roman empire and his mother, Cleopatra, the head of the Egyptian empire.

According to this research, he fled with two keepers, Joseph and Mary to India where he studied Buddhism, then returned and directly or indirectly fostered the influences that lead both to Catholicism and Protestantism, which of course the leaders of which became the Illuminati -- basically the inheritors of the Roman, Egyptian, Holy Roman Empire -- i.e. THE ORDER.

Throughout this thread I've discussed the evolution of the O-WO-NWO-Fourth Reich-Fifth Reich.

Anyway, according to this research, the patriarchal 'shepherds' such as Joseph referred to in the Bible, were NOT shepherds, they were the Shepard Pharoahs of either southern or northern Egypt (Egypt dividing into two factions of pharoahs (or, warlords) -- in the north and south,

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Apart from them all having Jewish origins I fail to see any direct link, between Warburg-Schiff and the Rothschilds.

1. They are all Germans born in Germany.
2. They are all business partners, notably documented in 1913 by all being co-directors (and all being the private owners) of the Federal Reserve bank.






[edit on 31-7-2008 by counterterrorist]

see, Pakistani Intelligence ISI wired Mohammed Atta $100,000 on Sept 10 – news censored in U.S. www.abovetopsecret.com...

summary of posts on p23

(cont) summary of p23 posts
two Sept 11 hijackers kept bank accounts at DEUTSCHE BANK, including leader Mohammed ATTA.

(cont) summary of p23 posts

(cont) summary of posts on p23

(cont) summary of p23 posts

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Interesting view. However, I see the progression (and am currently researching the O-WO-NWO process of the last 2,000 years from the Apostle Paul (who apparently was NOT the Christianity of Jesus and James, but what became the STATE version of Christianity, thru the Illuminati, up to present.

First, there was pagan Europe. Since the Council of Nicea, things changed. Pagan society would be replaced by Christian society and the pagan leadership would be converted to Christianity or replaced by a Christian elite. This elite was arristrocratic and provided both kings and popes.

During the era of the crusades, an order of knight-priests called the Templar Knights would gain esoteric knowledge (contradicting Christianity) during their time in the East and at the same time become more powerful than most kings. As such, they became both an economical and religious alternative to the existing Christian elite who considered them a threat. The consequence was the elimination of the Templar Knights.

Many of these Templar Knights fled and went underground where they founded or joined semi-secret societies like the Rosicrucians. As such, they kept their ideals and way of life alive far from public display. Around the 17th century their descendants infiltrated in "free masonic" circles and developed what we now know as freemasonry. They also alligned themselves with Jews who were also competing with the Christian elite and wanted supremacy.

Freemasonry would soon become a powerful entity in Western society and entirely controlled by both Jews and those who continued the Templar legacy. As such, it developed a great hostility against the Christian elite and masonic circles were a hotbed of dissidence and revolutionary thinking.

The "Englightenment" was their product and so were the revolutions that followed soon after. Graduately, they would replace the European monarchs by their own presidents and they would replace the Christian church by humanism. Arristocrats were forced to pay heavy taxes on their land, which made them graduately lose their once vast fortunes. At the same time, the humanist bourgeois would flourish by exploiting the masses in a way never seen before.

What we now know as the NWO is the legacy of this latter elite who managed to replace the old arristocratic elite. The Rockefellers and the Morgans were a transitionary elite who were not arristocratic but still felt a strong affinity with traditional arristocratic society. It wasn't until the 1930s that they turned against traditional society altogether and joined the new elite completely. This is probably the best explanation of their change in attitude towards Hitler.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
As I mentioned a few posts back, (www.abovetopsecret.com...) just yesterday I came across the research that both Roosevelt and Hitler had some of the same companies and some of the same major players in common supporting them.

It is possible that there were companies who supported both sides. However, that doesn't mean that Hitler and Roosevelt were just pawns of the same elite. It wouldn't be the first time that bankers support sides who truely are enemies to profit twice and to be sure to have a foot in the door at the winner's, regardless of who actually wins.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Had there been no bloodshed or hostility of any kind, Hitler, or 'Dolph' as KT prefers to call him ... perhaps might have been a fine leader whose life didn't end in heroin and speed addiction and alleged suicide (although, there are accounts he successfully escaped).

Göring was addicted to opiates because of an old wound. I personally don't believe the rumours that Hitler was addicted to any drugs.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
Many folks interpret Hitler as Germany's economic savior and forget that following Germany WWI slaughters and genocides Germany was bankrupted and in effect PURCHASED by the WO and NWO folks

Most people don't realise that Hitler was one of the greatest critics of the bankrupcy of Germany and it being robbed by foreigners. Most people don't realise that the Third Reich published dozens of books and pamphlets that exposed the NWO. Most people don't realise that Germany became healthy in just a few years when Hitler became chancellor and that he made and end to the robbing of Germany.... which was exactly why the British (NWO) declared war on Hitler.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
However, because of it's intelligence, that is, inate intelligence, in going underground via Odessa and Bormann both working with Brown Brothers Harriman and Rockefeller interests, succeeded in the transition of the Third Reich into the Fourth, and the Fifth (beginning with WTC/911 -- basically a replay of the Reichstag fire provocation).

The current decadent state of Germany is pretty much the exact oposite of what Hitler had in mind.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
There is a great body of research that Jesus was actually the last Ptolemy pharaoh -- his father was the head of the Roman empire and his mother, Cleopatra, the head of the Egyptian empire.

According to this research, he fled with two keepers, Joseph and Mary to India where he studied Buddhism, then returned and directly or indirectly fostered the influences that lead both to Catholicism and Protestantism, which of course the leaders of which became the Illuminati -- basically the inheritors of the Roman, Egyptian, Holy Roman Empire -- i.e. THE ORDER.

This, as well as many other claims you make, sounds very speculative and implausible... although I have read of people saying that Jezus and Buddha were the same person... and Buddha was a prince, wasn't he?!?

I'm very much aware of the fact that a lot of our history telling is distorted and I strongly regret not having access to Fomenko's literature. Although I'm very sceptical about his statements, his use of mathematics definitely appeals to me and his general conclusion is fascinating to say the least. If you haven't heard of Fomenko, I suggest you research him.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
WHAT ARE YOUR MAIN RESEARCH INTERESTS? You seem very well informed and educated.

As a teenager, I focussed on ancient civilisations and the possibility of a lost civilisation in that era. Last few years, I focussed on topics such as 19th century colonialism, communism, fascism, indoctrination techniques, liberalism, race and psychology.

add'l info on enron

from www.apfn.org...

ENRON GAVE TALIBAN $MILLIONS

The National Enquirer OnLine
The Enron Corporation gave the Taliban millions of dollars in a no-holds-barred bid to strike a deal for an energy pipeline in Afghanistan -- while the Taliban were already sheltering terror kingpin Osama Bin Laden!

Enron executives even met with Taliban officials in Texas, where they were given the red-carpet treatment and promised a fortune if the deal went through.

That's the bombshell finding of an exclusive ENQUIRER investigation into the collapse of the company that ripped off Americans for millions of dollars. The ENQUIRER has also uncovered that some of the Enron money wound up supporting Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda terrorist network!

"Enron would do business with the devil if it would make the company money!" said a member of a Congressional committee investigating the company's collapse.

And Atul Davda, who worked as a senior director for Enron's International Division until the company's collapse, confirmed to The ENQUIRER: "Enron had intimate contact with Taliban officials. Building the pipeline was one of the corporation's prime objectives."

As The ENQUIRER revealed two weeks ago, Enron secretly employed CIA agents to carry out its dealings overseas. And a CIA insider disclosed: "Enron was wooing the Taliban and was willing to make the Taliban a partner in the operation of a pipeline through Afghanistan.

"Enron proposed to pay the Taliban large sums of money in a 'tax' on every cubic foot of gas and oil shipped through the pipeline."

Enron shelled out more than $400 million for a feasibility study on the pipeline and "a large portion of that cost was payoffs to the Taliban," said the CIA source.

Shockingly, Enron's wooing of the Taliban continued even after Al Qaeda agents bombed two American embassies in Africa in 1998, and the U.S. retaliated with missile attacks on suspected Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan and Sudan.

"The U.S. was shooting missiles into Afghanistan, and it was clear that the Taliban were enabling Bin Laden and Al Qaeda," terrorist expert Jeffrey Steinberg, editor of the Executive Intelligence Review, told The ENQUIRER.

"Nonetheless the oil companies continued to work behind the scenes to complete the pipeline deal."

The pipeline project was originally proposed by Unocal Corporation.

And an FBI source told The ENQUIRER: "Enron and Unocal dumped hundreds of millions of dollars into Afghanistan and the Taliban. The pipeline would relieve our dependence on Saudi Arabia -- and Enron would make billions.

"When Clinton was bombing Bin Laden camps in Afghanistan in 1998, Enron was making payoffs to Taliban and Bin Laden operatives to keep the pipeline project alive. And there's no way that anyone could NOT have known of the Taliban and Bin Laden connection at that time, especially Enron who had CIA agents on its payroll!"

Said an Enron company source, "After the Taliban came to power in 1996, Tliban leaders were invited to Sugar Land, Texas, by Unocal and Enron executives.

"The Taliban's mullahs were given the royal treatment for four days in 1997!"

The visit was aimed at getting Taliban cooperation to build the pipeline, which would carry vast gas and oil deposits from Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan. Enron had exclusive contracts with the former Russian republics, according to another former Enron employee.

The pipeline was to travel through Afghanistan and Pakistan to the Indian Ocean.

When contacted by The ENQUIRER, U.S. State Department's press officer for South Asian Affairs, Len Scensny, confirmed that a Taliban delegation visited Sugar Land, Teas, in 1997 to discuss business with oil companies.

Three days after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, Unocal announced it had withdrawn from the Afghanistan pipeline project.

But the CIA insider said Enron and its CEO Kenneth Lay held on, waiting for the Taliban to give up Bin Laden as the Bush administration was demanding.

"Enron figured the Taliban wanted to stick to their deal, that they wanted riches the same way Enron did.

"What Enron and Ken Lay didn't understand is that it was Bin Laden who was calling the shots, not Enron's Taliban friends.

"Now Enron and the Taliban are both goners!"
Published on: March 4, 2002
web.archive.org... www.nationalenquirer.com...

more on Enron by Linda Minor FOLLOW THE YELLOW BRICK ROAD: From Harvard to Enron. www.newsmakingnews.com...

[edit on 1-8-2008 by counterterrorist]

[edit on 1-8-2008 by counterterrorist]

CT: You're very bright and I enjoy interacting w/you. Have been working around the clock and need to start a 5-hr car trip in about 5 hours and am trying to catch up before I leave. Plus, get a few hours sleep.

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
First, there was pagan Europe. Since the Council of Nicea, things changed ... Pagan society would be replaced by Christian society and the pagan leadership would be converted to Christianity or replaced by a Christian elite.

CT: I'm looking forward into researching this, it's one of the missing keys I've been looking for but didn't know it. Am interested finding out who the players were.

OutoftheBoxthinker said: [the Templar Knights were] both an economical and religious alternative to the existing Christian elite who considered them a threat ...the consequence was the elimination of the Templar Knights.

OutoftheBoxthinker said: Around the 17th century their descendants infiltrated in "free masonic" circles and developed what we now know as freemasonry ...they also alligned themselves with Jews who were also competing with the Christian elite and wanted supremacy.

CT: Where would I find documentation that the freemasons aligned themselves w/Jews ... as throughout Europe most Jews were confined in ghettos and impoverished ...weren't they?

Freemasonry would soon become a powerful entity in Western society and entirely controlled by both Jews and those who continued the Templar legacy. As such, it developed a great hostility against the Christian elite and masonic circles were a hotbed of dissidence and revolutionary thinking.

CT: Where would I go to document freemasonry was controlled by the Jews? I thought the freemasons were anti-Semitic? ...but I've not researched it, yet. That freemasonry was controlled by Jews sounds like propaganda to me, or historical revisionism. To me it's like saying, "brownies are controlled by Betty Crocker".

OutoftheBoxthinker said: The Rockefellers and the Morgans were a transitionary elite who were not aristocratic but still felt a strong affinity with traditional aristocratic society. It wasn't until the 1930s that they turned against traditional society altogether and joined the new elite completely. This is probably the best explanation of their change in attitude towards Hitler.

CT: I thought the Rockefellors as soon as they start monopolizing oil alongside the railroad robber barons monopolizing transportation in the late 1800s is when they turned against society.

OutoftheBoxthinker said: It is possible that there were companies who supported both sides. However, that doesn't mean that Hitler and Roosevelt were just pawns of the same elite.

CT: I just came across that info two days ago -- and at the url I previously provided there's an individual who equally advised Hitler and Roosevelt. I'll be researching him in about 10 days when I return, and am really looking forward to it.

OutoftheBoxthinker said: It wouldn't be the first time that bankers support sides who truely are enemies to profit twice and to be sure to have a foot in the door at the winner's, regardless of who actually wins.

CT: Absolutely.

Originally posted by counterterrorist: Had there been no bloodshed or hostility of any kind, Hitler, or 'Dolph' as KT prefers to call him ... perhaps might have been a fine leader whose life didn't end in heroin and speed addiction and alleged suicide.

OutoftheBoxthinker said: Göring was addicted to opiates because of an old wound. I personally don't believe the rumours that Hitler was addicted to any drugs.

CT: Here's a post documenting Hitler's addictions, plus his addicting his officers and armies, plus the German population. However, the addicting appears to have been done by Nazi Bayer corp. Please don't take the post personally, it's intentionally inflammatory.

HERE'S THE POST: 'videos & sources: The ‘great’ REAL Hitler was a speed-freak & smack junkie' www.abovetopsecret.com...

also see, www.abovetopsecret.com...

OutoftheBoxthinker said: Most people don't realise that Hitler was one of the greatest critics of the bankruptcy of Germany and it being robbed by foreigners. Most people don't realise that the Third Reich published dozens of books and pamphlets that exposed the NWO. Most people don't realise that Germany became healthy in just a few years when Hitler became chancellor and that he made and end to the robbing of Germany.... which was exactly why the British (NWO) declared war on Hitler.

CT: Hitler started his anti-Semitic ranting as a young man when he was a propaganda officer. The Jewish bankers were German. German. German. To attribute success in banking to religion, to me is senseless. Especially since Jews and Christians worship the same God, Jehovah -- as Christians believe in the Trinity of the Father-Son-Holy-Ghost, that the three are one.

CT: There is a great body of research that Jesus was actually the last Ptolemy pharaoh -- his father was the head of the Roman empire and his mother, Cleopatra, the head of the Egyptian empire.

OutoftheBoxthinker said: This, as well as many other claims you make, sounds very speculative and implausible.

CT: this is not MY claim, it is merely my reporting of research. It IS very speculative ... about as speculative as Jesus was a man but he really was the son of God. I'll be researching the works on Jesus being the last Egyptian pharoah in about 10 days when I return. It makes a lot more sense when one sees all the research, than just reducing it to a few sentences.

OutoftheBoxthinker said: If you haven't heard of Fomenko, I suggest you research him.

CT: Okay. I will in about 10 days.

OutoftheBoxthinker said: As a teenager, I focused on ancient civilisations and the possibility of a lost civilisation in that era.

CT: Did you find any? When I was a teenaqer I studied the Tarot and Kaballah and the Occult and the I Ching and Zen Buddhism and Sufi-ism ...among other things.

I'm trying to finish up a few posts, so if you respond I might not be able to respond back, as per no sleep and my driving trip in 4 hrs and 40 minutes.

[edit on 1-8-2008 by counterterrorist]

[edit on 1-8-2008 by counterterrorist]

NOTE: this url and pictures go with my immediately previous reply to outoftheboxthinker (I'm tired and forgot to put them in).

HERE'S THE POST: 'videos & sources: The ‘great’ REAL Hitler was a speed-freak & smack junkie' www.abovetopsecret.com...


here's Nazi Bayer, or should I now say, neo-Nazi Bayer's, work.



(note the reference to I.G. Farben)






[edit on 1-8-2008 by counterterrorist]

Originally posted by counterterrorist
CT: You're very bright and I enjoy interacting w/you.

Thanks.

Originally posted by counterterrorist

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
First, there was pagan Europe. Since the Council of Nicea, things changed ... Pagan society would be replaced by Christian society and the pagan leadership would be converted to Christianity or replaced by a Christian elite.

CT: I'm looking forward into researching this, it's one of the missing keys I've been looking for but didn't know it. Am interested finding out who the players were.

Good luck with that. There's only little data available on how exactly this took place and the data is usually very subjective.

Originally posted by counterterrorist

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
OutoftheBoxthinker said: Around the 17th century their descendants infiltrated in "free masonic" circles and developed what we now know as freemasonry ...they also alligned themselves with Jews who were also competing with the Christian elite and wanted supremacy.

CT: Where would I find documentation that the freemasons aligned themselves w/Jews ... as throughout Europe most Jews were confined in ghettos and impoverished ...weren't they?

[.....]

CT: Where would I go to document freemasonry was controlled by the Jews? I thought the freemasons were anti-Semitic?

First, the Catholic church dominated Europe. After the Eastern and Western schisms, there were various Christian churches each dominating a part of Europe. Jews and those preserving Templar knowledge both developed their own base of power while staying largely invisible. Because they were both forced to stay underground and they both yearning for power and revenge, it was self-evident that they would find each other.

The links between Jews and freemasonry are well-documented, however little has been published on this topic by reliable sources since WW2 because it became too dangerous to say anything negative about Jews ever since then. Therefore, I suggest you look for sources on freemasonry that are older than WW2.

Anyway, a significant part of masonic tradition involves myths and symbols relating to the Temple of Solomon. Jews are held in high regards by masons and some prominent Jews were masons themselves. There are even specifically Jewish maconic groups, like B'Nai B'Rith.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
CT: I thought the Rockefellors as soon as they start monopolizing oil alongside the railroad robber barons monopolizing transportation in the late 1800s is when they turned against society.

Sure. They were just a different fraction.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
HERE'S THE POST: 'videos & sources: The ‘great’ REAL Hitler was a speed-freak & smack junkie' www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't buy into that, I'm sorry.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
CT: Hitler started his anti-Semitic ranting as a young man when he was a propaganda officer. The Jewish bankers were German. German. German. To attribute success in banking to religion, to me is senseless.

According to Hitler himself, he became antisemitic during his stay in Vienna, where Jews were quite visible and powerful. Hitler didn't regard Jews are a religious group but as an ethnic group. Their religion was regarded as a very anti-German and destructive philosophy but not as the key identification of what defines a Jew.

Hitler's attitude towards Christianity was dubious. In his heart he was more a pagan than a Christian, but there were too many German Christians for him to take a public stand against Christianity like eg. Rosenberg or Himmler did in some of their publications.

Originally posted by counterterrorist
CT: this is not MY claim, it is merely my reporting of research. It IS very speculative ... about as speculative as Jesus was a man but he really was the son of God.

... which I don't take seriously either.

Originally posted by counterterrorist

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker
OutoftheBoxthinker said: As a teenager, I focused on ancient civilisations and the possibility of a lost civilisation in that era.

CT: Did you find any? When I was a teenaqer I studied the Tarot and Kaballah and the Occult and the I Ching and Zen Buddhism and Sufi-ism ...among other things.

I strongly believe that there was an ancient advanced civilisation that preceded Egyptian and Babylonian culture, but I've found too little information on what this culture was like or where it came from.