Why the Longer Flight paths?

Why would hijackers take longer routes to their targets? For example, they flew out of Logan when they could have just left from JFK, which if your a hijacker you would think the *LESS TIME IN AIR* the more possible you accomplish your goal. The *MORE TIME IN AIR* the more chance of an intercept.

How would the hijackers know it would be clear sailing? Look at the route below.

they would have used a smaller airport to get in to the aircraft unhindered, there is more security at JFK

reply to post by weemadmental


The first immediate question would be..

How would they know JFK had greater security? Also, with the greater amount of people at JFK one would think you would have more of a chance to "slip through".

IS Logan the closest "smaller airport"?

This still doesn't address why the hijackers would know it would be clear sailing. Even *IF* there is greater security, why would they think they could get away with that much *TIME IN AIR*.

Smaller airport, and fewer passengers on each flight.
Flights out of NY or DC would be packed.

reply to post by defcon5


So in other words they were more worried about the "SECURITY" at the "AIRPORT", rather then the "SECURITY" by the "AIR FORCE"?

Also, this makes zero sense since OSAMA BIN LADEN proclaims in his "confession"

archives.cnn.com...

UBL: The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.

#1. They didn't know what they were doing, so it couldn't be that they were at LOGAN for greater security.

#2. This also makes it unbelievable, since they only got wind of the plan soon before boarding.

#3. They must have had some "THOUGHT" about being intercepted.

This whole thing doesn't add up.

Originally posted by talisman
reply to post by weemadmental

 

The first immediate question would be..

How would they know JFK had greater security? Also, with the greater amount of people at JFK one would think you would have more of a chance to "slip through".

IS Logan the closest "smaller airport"?

This still doesn't address why the hijackers would know it would be clear sailing. Even *IF* there is greater security, why would they think they could get away with that much *TIME IN AIR*.

its a much bigger airport, more people, aircraft its a given that security would be tighter, also they may have come into the country at this airport, or the planners could have travelled through, or checked it out on the net.

maybe they had plants/workers at that airport that they plant the weapons on the plane.

if the CIA/FBI didnt know they were there then neither would the ATC, they would just check in with the aircraft if/ why it went off of course, if they dont get a response they would keep trying, then call the military to check it out.

how long were they in the air for, a before they were noticed and how long does it take for an intercept that is the questions you should be asking

reply to post by weemadmental


All that would mean is they had a greater fear of Airport Security, then the Air Force. Which is not believable.

How would they know not to fear the "AIR FORCE"?

Also see my post above, they didn't know the plan until they boarded the planes.



[edit on 13-4-2008 by talisman]

reply to post by talisman


I think you have pointed out yet ANOTHER issue with the OCT. If *I* was planning to hijack planes I had never flown before, I would be looking at the closest I could find. And what does "greater security" have to do with it? Back then, it was pretty easy to get on board a plane with a lot of things you can't get on board with anymore.

They had very little more to fear from security at a nearby airport than a more distant one. But instead of choosing JFK, say, they chose something farther away, when, if it was as the OCT suggests, they would be FAR more fearful of the Air Force, and would want to spend the least amount of time in the air.

But somehow, they just "knew" that the distance/time in air was not a real issue.

Good catch! I'll star ya. Would flag ya, but I'm still tring to figure out how that is done.

#1. Going out of Logan and Newark gives you more time to make sure things are done right and you have total control of the plane. You have more time to secure the plane, and ensure everything is ok, then worry about finding your target. Going out of JFK you have to immediately take over the planes, secure everyone, and find your target. You're more rushed, and there's more opportunity to miss.

#2. What Defcon5 said was smaller airport, fewer passengers. If you go out of JFK you are probably going to be on a flight that is full, or nearly full which means you have more passengers for your crew to deal with. So instead of having 2 in the cockpit with 3 to handle 40 people, you would have to have 1 in the cockpit, and 4 to handle 150-200 people. More chance that IF the passengers choose to fight back they could overpower your muscle.

As others posted earlier - smaller airport, fewer passengers. Hijackers
needed to get seats in 1st class to quickly rush the cockpit and force
the remaining passengers/flight crew to the rear of the cabin. Higher
passenger load means greater likehood not get prime seats or even
not being able to get seats in 1st class. Also more passengers, more
difficulty in securing cabin, especially on larger 767 (WTC aircraft)
which have 2 main aisles. The 2 aisles force hijackers to spread out
to cover more ground. Greater chance passengers can overwelm
hijackers.

reply to post by talisman

#2. This also makes it unbelievable, since they only got wind of the plan soon before boarding.

The pilots knew when they were going to attack at least five days beforehand according to UBL.

UBL: We were at (...inaudible...) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the muscle hijackers.

Apparently, some of them knew as early as August 23.
Source

Originally posted by talisman
Why would hijackers take longer routes to their targets? For example, they flew out of Logan when they could have just left from JFK, which if your a hijacker you would think the *LESS TIME IN AIR* the more possible you accomplish your goal. The *MORE TIME IN AIR* the more chance of an intercept.

How would the hijackers know it would be clear sailing? Look at the route below.

Perhaps, the hijackers had to wait until the cockpit door was unlocked...say, when flight attendants brought coffee. Or, a restroom break, etc..

Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by talisman

 

#2. This also makes it unbelievable, since they only got wind of the plan soon before boarding.

The pilots knew when they were going to attack at least five days beforehand according to UBL.

UBL: We were at (...inaudible...) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the muscle hijackers.

Apparently, some of them knew as early as August 23.
Source

And where does it say he got 'notification' from the hijackers?

But let us suppose what you think for the sake of argument---The "notification" even *IF* it came from them would not mean they "KNEW" the plot, only that they had to board the planes!!



[edit on 14-4-2008 by talisman]

Originally posted by thedman
As others posted earlier - smaller airport, fewer passengers. Hijackers
needed to get seats in 1st class to quickly rush the cockpit and force
the remaining passengers/flight crew to the rear of the cabin. Higher
passenger load means greater likehood not get prime seats or even
not being able to get seats in 1st class. Also more passengers, more
difficulty in securing cabin, especially on larger 767 (WTC aircraft)
which have 2 main aisles. The 2 aisles force hijackers to spread out
to cover more ground. Greater chance passengers can overwelm
hijackers.

So they were more afraid of "AIRPORT SECURITY" as opposed to "AIR FORCE" security>?

Can you explain why they had no fear of the air defense of the United States the only superpower in the world at the time?



[edit on 14-4-2008 by talisman]

I think it was better for them to not "fly" from JFK, less time in the air, less chance to take control of the entire plane, maybe more chance to get intercept in the air but the goal is to put terror in the U.S., in case of being chase by the airforce they would just have to go straight to the ground with the plane in crash in a random town/street/building, there is also the security fact, less security in the airport more chance you have to go on board with unboardable items, just do the test when you have to take a plane, choose a big airport and a smaller one and you'll see.

What happens exactly this day is still a shadow for me, i'm pretty sure the government is responsable of that but what i start to think is there is a kind of collaboration between al-qaeida(?) and the u.s., they needed someone to did the bad work and being responsable for this attack, give him all the means necessary, just put the explosive for the final fireworks and here it is!

reply to post by ufopunx



If they left from JFK, depending on where plane was headed, they could take all the time they needed for "control" and still be within striking distance.

I can see no real good reason why they didn't have respect or fear of the greatest air defense in the world? It would seem to me that this would be priority #1.




[edit on 14-4-2008 by talisman]

reply to post by talisman

But let us suppose what you think for the sake of argument---The "notification" even *IF* it came from them would not mean they "KNEW" the plot, only that they had to board the planes!!

Are you saying that the hijacker pilots trained for over one year, rented simulators, took reconnaissance flights, made martyrdom videos and bought tickets nearly 2 weeks beforehand did not know that they were going to hijack airplanes and crash them?

I think that the size of the airport IS a factor - although i bet its a small one - im willing to bet that 'time in the air' would be the larger factor. I say this because I believe that a) they knew it would be 'smooth sailing' and therefore, b) they had all the time in the world and c) they needed at least a certain ammount of time to make sure they could accomplish the most critical part of their mission - the take-over of the planes themselves.

They needed at least enough time to 'scope out the situation' and ascertain if it was feasable. They may have seen that it was not going to work and then 'stand down' (THAT factor must certainly have been in their minds because missions like that dont go off well unless and until they have a proper awareness of the situation and how to deal with it).

I bet on many of their survaillance flights on commercial airlines previous to 'the big one' (their dry-runs) they must have encountered various situations, like: "yeah we could do it right now" or "not this time because of this thing, lets modify it this way" or "maybe if this was a little different we would be able to do it better in this one area" etc... see what i mean?

So they would need enough time - not too much, not to little, but just right - so they would have worked out ahead of time what and where they needed to do it based on a time factor more than airport size (though still a factor).

***The Big Point that I think being brought up in this thread though, is the factor of them 'knowing' ahead of time that once they accomplished the taking over of the planes, they had all the time in the world - they knew this and built their mission parameters around this knowledge.

Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by talisman

 

But let us suppose what you think for the sake of argument---The "notification" even *IF* it came from them would not mean they "KNEW" the plot, only that they had to board the planes!!

Are you saying that the hijacker pilots trained for over one year, rented simulators, took reconnaissance flights, made martyrdom videos and bought tickets nearly 2 weeks beforehand did not know that they were going to hijack airplanes and crash them?

Let us look carefully at what your saying. First of all, Bin Laden did say that they knew they had a "martyrdom" operation. They did know this. He even says this. But that doesn't mean they knew exactly what and how.

Again, let us look carefully at this...

Does taking flying lessons mean your going to fly a plane into a building?

There was nothing wrong with the "training".

Let us suppose, that by not learning to "land" that this somehow dictates the plan. But how? They could have thought that they were going to crash at sea or into the land below.

Perhaps they thought that the pilots would be used for the landing.

The point is, the DETAILS weren't told them until just before they boarded the planes. This is according to Bin Laden.

[edit on 14-4-2008 by talisman]

reply to post by Grock


They really couldn't have known that, since according to Bin Laden, they didn't know the plan until just before they boarded the planes.

How exactly would they have known there would be clear sailing? Who would conduct such an operation?

Are they that wise and smart and that stupid at the same time?

To be on a warpath, you must respect your enemies. You must always give them more, so as to not to under-estimate them.

It would seem to me that if the official story is true, then there are some difficult questions to overcome.