The Real Aushwitz

reply to post by neformore

Think about that - 8000*365 is 2,920,000 people a year - at one camp

Thats alot of bodies. Anyone ever find where they are buried?

Originally posted by tevis69

 

My God... Deny Ignorance must be the one thing this member never read when joining this site. Were many many other people tortured, killed, murdered? yes. But were any of them targeted as brutally and systematically by the Nazi regime as the Jews were? No.

The Jewish population suffered a great loss during this war, and died in the most inhuman and dispicable ways. That is why the "Holocaust" is associated with mainly the Jewish population. O, and in every single piece of information I have ever read about the Holocaust mentions the deaths of the gypsies, christians, mentally handicaped as well as the jews.

And Judiasims is a religion and a culture. Which is why their holidays are recognized in the USA. If you believe in Judaism your a Jew. If you are from Isreal, you are a Jew.

Hey, tevis69, if you believe Power_Semi like most other posters on this board, you will realize that the Holocaust didnt happen because you or I were not there as witness to it.

In any case, you are exactly right. The conspiracy here is by anti-Semites trying to bash people that KNOW the Holocaust against the Jewish people occured.

The conspiracy to deny the Holocaust began the second Nazi leaders were being rounded up for war crimes. While they may not have gotten a fair trial by todays standards, denial of the Holocaust even then was foolish as the concentration camps were full of corpses. I guess because the bodies are gone now, its easy to be deniers. Its hard to believe that in this day and age that Nazi sympathizers exist.

Originally posted by metaldemon2000
Thats alot of bodies. Anyone ever find where they are buried?

The disposal method in the beginning was to incinerate the bodies. Later in the war, gas shortages made this all but impossible. Bodies were soon stacked on each other in mass graves. It became a real pain in the ass to dig all those graves in such short demand with the Red Army closing in, so Nazis opted to just gun down people in open fields that were dozens deep full of dead bodies.

When the Allied and Soviet forces moved in and discovered this, the bodies that were left out in the open and in open mass graves were documented and then burned to prevent the spread of any diseases they may have carried.

reply to post by DisInfo


lol it didn't happen because I wasn't witnessed to it. sounds like im in my visual cultures or media studies class all over again! but yes you are right in that regard. The same idea went about with the article how "the gulf war did not take place" since there was never any footage of an actual battle... just vids of a missle being shot out of a plane n hitting a building...

Anyways i agree, I fear that many many people will try to deny the existence of these atrocities as the people from that generation slowly die out. Which is why it is ever more imporant to remind and remember those events, so that they never happen again.

You might want to consider what some of those directly involved in what happened at the camps had to say instead of relying on revisionist history:

Rudolf Höss, former commandant of the Auschwitz camp complained: ‘Believe me, it wasn’t always a pleasure to see those mountains of corpses and smell the perpetual burning.’

He also expressed

“surprised disapproval that Jewish Special Detachments (Sonderkommandos) were willing, in return for a short extension of their own lives, to help with the gassing of members of their own race.” (The Face of the Third Reich, by Joachim C. Fest, page 285)

German author Fest adds:

“Some of the one-sided perfectionist pride of the expert comes out in Höss’s statement: ‘By the will of the Reichsführer of the SS [Heinrich Himmler], Auschwitz became the greatest human extermination centre of all time,’ or when he points out with the satisfaction of the successful planner that the gas chambers of his own camp had a capacity ten times greater than those of Treblinka.”

In his autobiography Höss wrote:

“Unknowingly, I was a cog in the chain of the great extermination machine of the Third Reich.” “The Reichsführer SS [Himmler] sent various high-ranking Party leaders and SS officers to Auschwitz so that they might see for themselves the process of extermination of the Jews. They were all deeply impressed by what they saw.”

There’s little doubt the holocaust happened, and there is also little doubt that it was and continues to be exaggerated for political purposes. Also, there is plenty of blame to go around.

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

www.jewsnotzionists.org...

And plenty to be gained by using the holocaust as a political club.

www.savethemales.ca...

www.amconmag.com...

When you take in all of the evidence as a whole, it’s clear that ‘the holocaust’ was just another step in the globalist plan. A step intended to create the modern nation state of Israel, and the resultant need for a one world gov to quell the inevitable violence. Violence that has been intentionally fostered and maintained and kept in the face of the western world through the media. We are witnessing ( and perhaps participating in) the globalist endgame.

The laws in some European countries that criminalize any discussion or
challenge to the (official history); are very sick. In my honest opinion.
That is all we need. More educational dogma, being forced on a unthinking, unquestioning public!

I've always had some questions about the official story.
For one thing. Why the number of Jews killed in the camps, grew over the years? At first it was 60,000. Was it just because they finally tallied all the missing Jews. Then attributed them all to being killed by the Germans?
10s of millions of people disappeared in WW2.
Also when the camps where liberated. They still had alot of Jews living in them. Some had 10s of thousands! A few years ago, I read there where over a million survivors still living???? At least Jews claiming to be surviors.
One train full of bodies, found at the end of the war. Was full of prisoners, that died of starvation. Not gassed! They're was no need to
kill prisoners in the last year of the war. They were all starving anyway.
Before then they needed every worker they could get. They were being killed in factories, by allied bombs every day.
Why would they waste time and effort, just to speed up the process by a few days! The Germans new they were loosing the war by then. Why would they want to be caught with fresh blood on their hands? Knowing they would be prosecuted for war crimes!
Undoubtedly terrible suffering went on in those camps. They all suffered terribly. Includeing allied soldiers. Also starving.
But I believe Zionist milk it, for all it is worth. The fish got bigger with each telling of the story.

I seriously can't believe people dont believe the holocaust ever happened...

You obviously haven't done that much research because there is plenty of photographic evidence... and missing people...

... I dont even know what to say...

... I may have to use my ignore button for the first time ever... I guess this is why they made it...

this is a recent tragedy... and people still dont believe it happened?
I mean, I can see questioning events that happened hundreds or thousands of years ago.. but this? come on...
Perhaps in 40 years people won't even believe the twin towers collapsed...

[edit on 13-4-2008 by Odessy]

Both my Grandpa's served in WWII, Both in Germany, one in the engineers and one doing search and destroy. My grandpa who did S&D found camps, jew filled camps. He along with his fellow soldiers made the mistake of feeding the prioners, who instantly died from eating. So they accidentally killed about 20. There were millions of Russians, Poles, gays, bi's, blacks, mentally disabled, German dissenters, so on and so forth. It happened. We aren't Jewish, we don't care who specifically was killed, but people were killed, by the millions. My grandpa found a half full mass grave of 1000's, half filled with ash and bone, half with corpses, and on top some between life and death. He talked about it once, and then never again. It happened, no one disputes the other races and people killed, only the jews. It was the single worst thing done since the khan's invasions with raping and pillaging on a brutality scale. Only Chinese leader Mao's, and Stalin's slaughter of millions of their own people has it been equaled since. Although I'm never surprised by the amount of I hate jews they should all be killed threads and posters on ATS. Not a lot of Denying ignorance here.

reply to post by queenannie38


If you say that cyanide gassing would be a difficult way to kill dozens of people at one time, I would say that the doctors who were prosecuted during the war crime trials would disagree with you. The concentration camp "gas" rooms were set up with recirculating air systems that vented through the ceiling and pumped back into the floor vents, a very efficient way to make the most use of a gas that does not have a very short half life.

Frankly it's insulting to deny that hundreds of thousands of innocent Jews were killed during WWII. Maybe the number wasn't 6 Million who really knows. I am not a Jew nor are any of my immediate ancestors, however I know of eyewitness's that were in the camps who were NOT JEWS, they were there for other reasons some of them were Germans who opposed Hitler and deemed political enemies of the state. They confirm the stories told, these non-jewish survivors have no reason to do otherwise. Many of these types of people did not make it out of the camps alive, they were generally very few in number.

I don't understand why people continue to deny history.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Frankly it's insulting to deny that hundreds of thousands of innocent Jews were killed during WWII. Maybe the number wasn't 6 Million who really knows. I am not a Jew nor are any of my immediate ancestors, however I know of eyewitness's that were in the camps who were NOT JEWS, they were there for other reasons some of them were Germans who opposed Hitler and deemed political enemies of the state. They confirm the stories told, these non-jewish survivors have no reason to do otherwise. Many of these types of people did not make it out of the camps alive, they were generally very few in number.

I don't understand why people continue to deny history.

I personally believe more than 6million were killed...
We go by 6million because that is the "reported" number...
I'm sure many more were not reported.
but, I have a biased opinion as half my family is Jewish and live in Israel...

non-jew is an existing member who specifically created that account to post that comment, in his mind for fun.

I dont know too much about this Holocaust denial topic, but from what I read about from the people who are crucified is not really denial. It appears they just want to make clear that there is a sort of privelage granted for a set of victims, and the actual reasons of why the dispecable "Final Solution" took place.

I cannot even imagine what a mental and physical shock it would be to come across a camp of that sort and magnitude, let alone be forced to live, work, or die in it. Some fools will deny the holocaust, and yes they got to be really ignorant to do that. However, this is not the case in most of the thread. These people just appear to be attempting to raise facts that are always seem to be looked over.

Noone deserved what happened to them during that massacre. It does noy seem anyone is trying to dispute that. It just seems they want to reveal the facts of hidden players that caused lunatic leaders to beleive their crimes against humanity were justified, and show how perhaps we should investigate further the actions of their descendants in this world today (the hidden players) and be sure they are not a direct cause of the world's problem now.

I think it is a problem when a private profit making organization can own an entire desperately poor nations infrastructure and resources, leaving the native population to poverty and malnutrition. It becomes an even bigger problem when the hidden players of the modern exploits are descended from the hidden players of the last generatiosn exploits which caused the loony leaders of the axis to go crazy at an undeniably unacceptable level.

What and who will the next generation of the HP's be exploiting, who will they enrage as a result of it, and what will be the consequences to the world?

I talk in redundant code because it forces segments of the brain to see things not normally observed.

[edit on 4/14/2008 by DYepes]

Thanks to all from your opinions and talk in this threat!

There is lot of motions running in this issue, and that is not a surprise, because the goal of propaganda after the war is targeted directly to our motions. Holocaust, as we all have learned to see, is a motional tragedy, fueled with most tragic stories, and official statements.

Questions what I want to raise here, is targeted over those motions. Asking for hard evidence is cold blooded attitude, what I have learned to to do my self after 911. I have seen here how US citizens has lots of motions still running with september events, and for those who has not experienced that high scale motional propaganda from those events, its much easier to except evidence against the official story.

I had been in Treblinka, where 1 000 000 Jews are claimed to meet their destiny in two year period. What I found there in middle of the forest, was not same place that I found from witness diary in my hand that day. Facts was missing, place was too small to carry that task, and it was almost forgotten place in middle of Poland. I learned after my visit, that no mass graves ever find from there... And there is still 250 000 dollars offered to those who find ONE mass grave from Treblinca. Many have try.

I was in Treblinca before 911, and first time I raise that important question over there, in front of accused "labour mine", at my lonely journey to evilness of human kind: "Was it true, and where is the evidence?" What I saw in my eyes didnt run with the big picture... And it was terrible found.

Also important is to understand, that Jews also fight war with in German Wehrmacht. My grandfather was one of them, and he even get a german medal from doing that. In Finland not one Jew get prisoned, or deported, and they fight with German forces true the war. So there was high scale difference in German attitude towards Jews, among 300 000 thousand of them in Finland. There is no mention from this in international history writings, no picture from German awarded Jew soldiers. Why?

Why we have to see only the worst side of history? What good is in hate, and fuel that motion? Whats the purpose of continuing blame of Germans? And why its only Germans that we have to learn to being the worst race of human history? Thats why I keep my eyes open to false flag in here...

Jews declared war against Germany officially in 1933. Massacre of German minority in Poland, made by Jews in 1939, and continuing tensions by Jews against German minority from 1938... Many events in Germany is easy to see as natural counter measure against enemy inside their nation. And what really caused WWII is maybe widely unknown, and who get the benefits from that? Maybe not Germans, because after all they suffered most.

After continuing false flags, witch has lead to all major wars: 911 in WOT, Bay of Tonkin in Vietnam, Mainila Shots in Finland, Pearl Harbor... I have lost my trust to elite, and to their fabricated lies. There is a good reason to ask about holocaust, and reasons for continuing occupation and war in Palestine.

In my mind, worst things happened at WWII, in first total war. But can we accuse another, and promote another with that awful result? We have been learned to see Jews as only being victims, but I see many facts that oppose this educated stance. Hitler said before he died, "That history will promote him to being the first to challenge the Zionist goals."

Look the world today, when greatest Zionist agenda is exposed: Illuminati, Knights Of Templars, Masons, Jesuits, NWO... Against what Hitler was really fighting for, for whom?

reply to post by neformore


Thank you for your response.

Soviet counter-offensive drove Wehrmacht back, out of Russia and Eastern Europe, from territory Germany had conquered and occupied. Nazi High Command tried to hide evidence of its butchery of war prisoners, and civilians. Slave labor was organized to dig up corpses of victims, then burn them in bonfires. Bonfires burned for days. Bones not destroyed in fire were crushed in machines designed to crush human bones, then slave labor scattered crushed bones and ashes into fields.

June 1943, Gestapo Chief Heinrich Himmler, and Major General of SS Police Katzmann, issued orders to dig up and burn corpses of civilians and war prisoners tortured to death or machine-gunned near Lvov. Sodenkommando No. 1005 consisted of 125 men, commanded by Hauptsturmbannfuehrer Scherlak. They removed corpses from mass burial pits, 1,600 corpses they stacked in piles, covered with tar and gasoline, then burned. Ashes were sifted to collect gold teeth, rings, and watches executioners had missed. The Sodenkommando recovered one-hundred-and-ten kilos of gold teeth, watches and rings from several sites …then, sent it to Germany.

In Yanovska Extermination Camp in Lvov, Germans had a special school for extermination camp commandants from Lublin, Warsaw and Cracow. Chief Scherlak, Sodenkommando No 1005, taught commandants to dig up bodies, stack them, burn them, sift ashes for gold, crush the bones, fill-in the pits ...then, plant trees and shrubs for camouflage.

Fall 1944, Red Army troops reach Tody German Extermination Camp near Looga Estonia. Smell of burning human flesh comes from the forest. Red Army finds four huge, smoldering hills of corpses ...3,000 men, women, and children ...recently butchered …intellectuals from Vilan, Riga, and Tallinn …including Soviet prisoners of war.

Yanovska Extermination Camp in Lvov produced concrete, but that day, prisoners collected pine logs, bringing logs to a forest meadow by Yanovska. Germans had them put the logs on the grass in rows, made prisoners lie face down on logs ...then, machine-gunned them. Victims screamed. Then, more prisoners were made to lay a row of logs on the murdered people, and lie face down on those logs ...then, they were machine-gunned. Their were five layers of corpses sandwiched with four rows of logs. There were more logs to lay on the victims, but Germans knew Red Army was nearing, so Germans poured gasoline on the corpses, and burned them. SS returned to the Yanovska Extermination Camp in Lvov, herded remaining women, and children, into barracks ...forced them to lie on the floor ...machine-gunned them ...then, set the barracks on fire. Several men and women who weren’t dead tried jumping out windows of burning barracks, but were shot. Their half-burned bodies lay on the ground, when Soviet liberation troops arrived. Some Red Army soldiers found corpses of their wives, and children, burned at the camp …no, Russian soldiers would show no mercy to Germany. British and Americans were not as determined.

Nazi Germany was suffering military defeat. But, the battle to win the peace was just beginning. General Staff considered military loss of World War II ...a temporary defeat ...just as they’d considered military loss of World War I, temporary military defeat ... in the 1,000 year Reich new World Order. They prepared plans to win the peace ...have a Third World War ...a fourth ...a fifth, as many as were necessary for a handful of German and American and British ruling families of the new World Order … to rule the world, with Fed majority shareholder financing ... the masters of war.

reply to post by counterterrorist


From 1939 to 1941, Gehlen and Nazi Wehrmacht over-ran borders of peaceful countries, into Soviet Russia ...led by Fehme death squad leaders, spies, sadists, and anti-Semite gangsters of Schwarze Reichswehr. Wehrmacht was led by murderers, assassins. Wehrmacht officers included SS and Gestapo officers ...Ordensburgen graduates. Ordensburgen ...a special military school for training SS and Gestapo officers to degrade, kill and torture.

Wehrmacht cut a path of human suffering through the countryside. Ordensburgen graduates, from Berlin and Munich, preyed on citizens of Paris, Brussels, Prague, Rotterdam, Warsaw, Kiev, and Kharkov. Factories in Hamburg, Berlin, and Dresden were built ... to provide Gestapo and SS with torture tools ... pliers to pull out fingernails ...thumbscrews ...hand-presses ...shackles ...chain handcuffs ...racks ...whips ...bludgeons ...electrical devices to burn men and women alive, ...tools to scald people ...presses to crush bones. In four years of German occupation of Paris, Nazis tortured and murdered 75,000. Germany military prisons in Paris had baths of freezing water to submerge prisoners until they were unconscious ...rooms of men and women burned with electricity ...prisoners shackled to walls, then burned with fire. Nazis called torture, ‘interrogation’ ...striking the face, the body below the belt ...beatings with truncheons, cat-of-nine tails ...tying people to tables, then, beating them ...hanging people from ropes, then, whipping them, then, letting them fall on pointed wooden blocks ...burning people with lit cigars ...crushing fingers in screw-presses ...burning people with electric needles.

The techniques of Wehrmacht brutality, and terrorism, was not restricted only to trained officers, Gestapo agents, and SS men.
Wehrmacht brutality was designed to stamp out opposition, to terrorize indigenous populations in invaded countries. And, at the same time, to create morale in German troops.

Each German soldier became a team player, led by German General Staff. German General Staff psywar experts made each soldier an accomplice to Wehrmacht’s criminal war, issued standing orders that German soldiers ...rape women ...torture people ...assassinate citizens in Nazi occupied countries … business as usual. Looting, rape, murder, and robbery by German soldiers in Europe was proven, German psychological terrorism.

July 17, 1941 Nazi Supreme Command issued orders to Wehrmacht Propaganda Company Commanders . ‘Foster in every German officer and German soldier, personal material interest in war.’
So, in Europe, Eastern Europe, Russia, Africa and the Mid-East ...German officers and German soldiers ...ransacked homes, stealing clothing, shoes, watches, kitchen utensils, baby wear, underwear and furs ...drove army vehicles up to shops, and looted them, removing entire inventories ...stripped civilians on public streets of shoes, cloths, jewelry, glasses, wallets.

Nazi Supreme Command scheduled needed transportation, for German soldiers and officers shipping booty home. Freight-train cars, and truck convoys, filled with stolen goods, flooded into Germany. German homes were furnished with stolen furniture. German pantries filled with stolen food. German farms received stolen livestock. German shops sold stolen clothes. German women and children wore clothing stolen from women and children of France, Belgium, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Poland.

I had never really thought about this subject much until coming across a thread on some site a year or so ago. I found this David Cole dude:

video.google.com...

www.vho.org...

I found it intriguing that he basically had a hit put out on him by the JDL then recanted and disappeared, at least as far as I saw. Seems like the stuff conspiracies are based on. I don't know what to think of all that but Cole's stuff does make sense, at least to my mind.

I also saw a page of numbers that day - I had it bookmarked but lost it - showing how possibly the census records are not totally correct due to shifting boundaries and such.

History is written by the winners, not the losers. Makes sense that the story is what it is. I do feel that some eyewitness testimony should be looked at objectively. A pile of bodies does not necessarily mean they ALL are Jewish. With famine and sickness there is bound to be a lot of death. Just look at,say , Andersonville in the U'S' Civil War - 13,000 died there. Not 6 million, I know, but it happens. There COULD be lots of reasons to explain much of the testimony and with the Cole stuff - which may or may not be total bunk, I don't know but I'm taking it at face value - it raises some interesting questions.

But what do I know. I'm told every day the government that supposedly represents me is not evil yet everything I read tells me the opposite. Lies abound all over the place so I tend to not really believe anything.

Originally posted by JanusFIN
I had been in Treblinka, where 1 000 000 Jews are claimed to meet their destiny in two year period. What I found there in middle of the forest, was not same place that I found from witness diary in my hand that day. Facts was missing, place was too small to carry that task, and it was almost forgotten place in middle of Poland. I learned after my visit, that no mass graves ever find from there... And there is still 250 000 dollars offered to those who find ONE mass grave from Treblinca. Many have try.

I responded to these points when you made them in another thread...You're nothing if not repetitive, I'll follow suit and then perhaps you might have the courtesy to address the points I raise. Though i very much doubt that you can.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by JanusFIN
( Independent organization has make open reward for all with 250 000 dollars to that people who can find, and give evidence from only one mass grave in another "death camp" Treblinca, where zionist claims over 1 000 000 people gets killed in wartime. )

- And nobody still can not find, not one mass grave from these "death camps!"

There is not a single grain of truth in any of your post and I would suggest that you re-evaluate your sources. Just to take the above as an example of how ridiculous your claims are...

You would perhaps find it helpful to read about Aktion 1005 led by Paul Blobel, the sole purpose of the operation was to remove evidence of the mass killings (both shootings and gassings) and he approached it with German efficiency.

In March 1942 SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich met with SS-Standartenführer Paul Blobel and placed him in charge of Aktion 1005. The assignment was initially delayed with Heydrich's assassination in June 1942, but was initiated later that same month. Blobel was then officially tasked with the project by SS-Gruppenführer Heinrich Müller, head of the Gestapo. Blobel began experimentation at Chelmno, digging up mass graves and using incendiary bombs, but this approach set the nearby forests on fire. Blobel then developed a more effective technique: Alternating layers of bodies with firewood or the use of rails as giant grills, and then crushing the bones in a specialized machine. The ash and bone fragments were then re-buried in the mass graves

en.wikipedia.org...

During the second phase, from June 1943 until mid 1944, the "Sonderkommando 1005" units were ordered to open the mass graves in Poland, the Baltic states and the occupied territory of the former USSR. Each Sonderkommando consisted of several SD officers and members of the Sipo and Orpo. One hundred Jews, sometimes more, were forced to open the mass graves, exhume and burn the bodies, and examine the ashes for valuables. The Jewish workers were killed when the cremation process was completed.

www.deathcamps.org...

In July 1943 Blobel came back to Kyiv. Because of the approaching Red Army he was ordered to remove all traces of mass murder in the East. In the Kyiv area his units were assisted by SS-Gruppenführer Max Thomas, commander of the SD and Sipo in the Ukraine.
Around 18 August the Sonderkommando 1005 A started to exhume and burn the corpses. This Sonderkommando consisted of 8-10 SD men and 30 German policemen, commanded by SS-Obersturmbannführer Baumann. Of course the Germans did not carry out this work themselves. 327 inmates of the KZ Syrets (among them 100 Jews) were forced to undertake this horrible task. The prisoners completed this work within six weeks. Those sick or too slow were shot on the spot. A German Schupo witness:
"Every prisoner was shackled on both legs with a 2-4 metre long chain... The piles of corpses were not set on fire at regular intervals, but whenever one or more piles were ready, they were covered with wood and soaked with oil and gasoline and then ignited."

Blobel, on 18 June 1947:
"During my visit in August I myself witnessed the burning of corpses in a mass grave near Kiew. This grave was approximately 55 metres long, 3 metres wide and 2.5 metres deep. After the cover had been removed, the corpses were covered with inflammable materials and set on fire. About two days passed before the fire had burned down to the bottom of the trench. Afterwards the grave was filled in and all traces thereby virtually obliterated. Because of the advance of the front it was not possible to destroy the mass graves located in the South and East which had resulted from execution by the task groups."

The corpses were cremated on funeral pyres, built on iron rails. Firewood was stacked, then the corpses were placed on this petrol soaked material. When the pyres had burned down, the special command of prisoners had to collect the remaining bones which were pulverized with tombstones from the Jewish cemetery. Finally the ashes were inspected in order to collect any remaining silver and gold (these men were called "Goldsucher" ("Gold diggers").

On 29 September 15 prisoners of the Sonderkommando were able to escape; 312 of their comrades were finally killed by the SS either during or on completion of the work. In October 1944 the remaining troops of Aktion 1005 were ordered to Kärnten (Carinthia / Austria) to fight against Yugoslav partisans, under the name "Einsatzgruppe Iltis", commanded by Blobel.

www.berdichev.org...

Mass graves have and will continue to be uncovered in the East, when the corpses are naked it can be assumed that the perpetrators were the Germans and not the Soviets, as thorough as Blobel was he was not able to reach the thousands of mass graves before the Red Army advance. To specify that the mass grave must be in Treblinka only indicates that whoever is offering this reward knows as well as I do that they will find nothing but fragments of bone, if indeed that.

As I said I don't know what sources you use but they definately seem biased and you may benefit from expanding on them.

Originally posted by DisInfo

Originally posted by Power_Semi
That isn't what I said, I said you can't really know if it happened or not if you weren't there, I didn't say that it definitely didn't happen.

You either deliberately misrepresent what I said or you don't understand.

I didnt misrepresent. Anyone can logically deduct what you were suggesting by READING your post, unless you changed it.

Originally posted by Power_Semi
Also, with regards to dropping bombs in WW2 - you know damned well where you're dropping firebombs when you're over a major city. They are designed to burn & destroy buildings, & inevitably that involved killing everyone who is there.

To try & excuse that just highlights my point - some people just have it in their heads that we're the "good guys" & therefore everything that we do is justified by one means or another, whilst any claims aimed at the "bad guys" must be true & they are inexcusable..

I know damned well where I dropped the firebombs? I never dropped a firebomb in my life. Im sure it would be an experience I wouldnt have forgotten.

In any event, are you aware who invented firebombing? It was the German Luftwaffe. They used it extensivly during the Battle of Britain and purposely targeted civilian centers. Afterwords, the USAAF primarily engaged in firebombing in Japan. Hey, most of Tokyo being burned the to ground is proof of that, even if I wasnt there to see it.

The USAAF did a number in Dresden, I will admit, but the use of firebombing in Europe was only engaged in when the conditions were too cloudy to use precision bombing as the tactic of the American air crews of the time were trained.

But again, back to your premise: how can I be sure the US firebombed anywhere if you were not there?

There you go, doing it again.

I think that your problem is that you don't read properly, & then you misinterpret what you didn't read properly.

Firstly I haven't amended my original post at all since you answered, I made 1 edit to correct a spelling error prior to your reply, so the suggestion that it has been altered afterwards is to try & give credit to your idiotic argument & to detract from my comment.

Secondly, I am not insinuating anything, & you certainly haven't logically deduced anything.

Thirdly, I clearly didn't say that you personally dropped a firebomb, to suggest that this was the meaning of the post is childish & pedantic.

Fourthly, who was talking about the USAF dropping firebombs? - you've illogically deduced that from not READING properly & then drawing your own conclusions.

Fifthly, who cares who first used firebombs. dropping firebombs on civilian targets to inflict death of civilians on a massive scale is wrong no matter how you might try to justify it. The next logical conclusion from your rather foolish comment is that the Nazis invented Death camps, so its okay if we do it too - they deserved it because they did it first?

Sixth, the use of firebombs was not "only engaged if conditions were too cloudy" they set out with the deliberate purpose of dropping firebombs, unless you're suggesting that in the 40's, whilst incapable of "precision bombing" they knew in advance what the weather conditions would be several hundred miles away over enemy territory when they arrived, or they set off with 2 kinds of bombs & decided which to drop when they arrived.


My point, in the simplest possible terms so that your limited number of synapses can fire enough to grasp it, is that you cannot be sure that any document or testimony of some event is true unless you witnessed it for yourself, especially where there is the strong possibility that it would be advantageous for the people writing the documents or giving the evidence to lie.

Power_Semi,

First, I find it interesting that you resort to calling me childish. It is just a tactic to deflect attention from what I am responding to. Believe what you will, as your posts speak for themselves. Your main theme throughout this entire ordeal has to suggest and back the notion that:

Originally posted by Power_Semi
My point, in the simplest possible terms...is that you cannot be sure that any document or testimony of some event is true unless you witnessed it for yourself, especially where there is the strong possibility that it would be advantageous for the people writing the documents or giving the evidence to lie.

Originally posted by Power_Semi
The simple truth, whether you choose to accept it or not, is that no one really knows whether the holocaust occured or not, unless you personally were there.

Originally posted by Power_Semi
I'm still not saying it didn't happen though, I don't know because I wasn't there.

Originally posted by Power_Semi
I said you can't really know if it happened or not if you weren't there, I didn't say that it definitely didn't happen.

These quotes are taken in the original form as you wrote them. What is anyone to deduce from what your suggesting? So, because documents can be forged, and because there are a dwindling number of survivors of these events, they are false and MAY NOT have happened? Silly on the face of what YOU have written repeatedly. You can obfuscate a number of different ways of what you really meant, but your basically repeating the same thing, as I am basically calling out what your suggesting every time you do it.

As far as the whole firebombing issue, you need to get some basics on what the USAAFs tactics and procedures were. There were several different tactics used in all the many theaters in the war. Firebombs were used when there was CLOUD COVER over the intended target. If the bomber crews couldnt target whatever it was with accuracy using standard explosive ordinance, the firebombs were mixed in to ensure that the target was directly or indirectly affected. The USAAF used firebombing far less than the RAF. And while weather reports at the time were mostly guess work, and fairly unreliable, that passed as state of the art. Hell, where I live they are constantly calling for rain, even though it doesnt. Seems predicting the weather is easier in hindsight.

Oh, I caught this little gem in your last post that made me chuckle:

Originally posted by Power_Semi
dropping firebombs on civilian targets to inflict death of civilians on a massive scale is wrong no matter how you might try to justify it. The next logical conclusion from your rather foolish comment is that the Nazis invented Death camps, so its okay if we do it too - they deserved it because they did it first?

Yeah, dropping firebombs was bad. Again, Eisenhower should be debated on the merits of such a tactic, as I cant speak for the Supreme Allied Commander at the time. But your last point on the acceptance of death camps is nice. I mean just because the Germans started it, doesnt make it right? If you read a good portion of the posts on this entire site, you will see all kinds of suggestions that that very thing is happening in our world as we speak. Heck, there are even some posts that suggest it is okay because the Nazis started it.

I think I understand what your getting at in your posts. You think there should be refection on the facts of the Holocaust, real or exaggerated as we know them today. I get it, but suggesting that the Holocaust did NOT happen at all is silly. There are far more documents proving it than disproving it. Though, I would surmise that you need video and audio proof of Hitler discussing it at length to maybe considering it is true.



[edit on 4/14/2008 by DisInfo]

[edit on 4/14/2008 by DisInfo]