Battle Against Teaching Evolution in Texas Begins: Should creationism win out, textbooks throughout

reply to post by RuneSpider


here we have something called religous studies
where Religious stuff is taught

and Science where Science is taught

do they have RS in the US?

reply to post by bodrul

In High School? The cloest I know of would be the class I mentioned. i'm not the final say in this of course, there are other schools with similar classes. The problem is it seems we are moving back towards relying on Chritiantiy, wich makes sense at the moment seeing all the other problems facing us. When everything else fails, the people tend to move back towards religion.

reply to post by Parabol


This is just so ridiculous. I say this both as a man of faith and a man of science.
Evolution is the basis of modern biology, without which we would not be able to have modern medical care of any kind. We would not be able to understand how our bodies work, and how to mitigate biological threats to it.

Then there's the matter of separation of Church and State. Faith has no place in schools. You are there to learn science, math, reading and writing skills, and social skills. THE CHURCH is where you go to learn about god. And in your heart and mind is where you learn how to reconcile your spiritual beliefs with that of the world around you, and how it works.

I firmly believe God created everything... But I also believe we can describe how he did it. If you take away those tool based on the assumption that you fully understand god, then you are doing your fellow man and yourself a very bad service. We are a society dependant on science for everything we do in our lives. From waking up on time, to getting to work on time, to visiting your parents in another part of the world, or peering into the vast distances of the universe. It is apparent in how we communicate, and how we deal with disease.

God gave us the ability to use the tools we have to better ourselves and to enrich our lives. To not use the tools we were given is tantamount to blasphemy. Because that would be to go against god. Not saying that faith in god should be shunned, but this shouldn't take place either:

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

So...Where does this leave us?



[edit on 6-4-2008 by projectvxn]

[edit on 6-4-2008 by projectvxn]

reply to post by Parabol


Hi,
Very interesting thread. Thanks for posting.
Although I am a Christian, I believe that both need to be taught side-by-side. Because evolution has not been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt either. As a believer in God, I believe that God believes in science. I think there are many mysteries yet to unfold until we get all of the answers. Thank you for listening.

reply to post by bodrul


Hello, bodrul, good question, Star!

I know you were already replied to, but hope you wouldn't mind an
additional answer- Yes, religious studies was required for those of us who
attended Catholic school, and optional for other kids in public schools, but
who still attended our church.

I attended "CCD" from early grade school, all the way into high school.
'Catechism of Christian Doctrine', normally on sunday afternoons, was
shifted to wednesday nights.

About an hour & a 1/2 long, hosted by a different family, or couple, from
our parish. Very cool, i thought! Prayers & Bible studies for the first half,
then totally relaxed, & social for the last half.

But you know how it goes, once we started getting driver's licenses, and
involved in sports, going out to movies on our own, & concerts; well,
attendence slipped away to nothing!

But i believe that it helped to instill good morals, and advanced us socially
to keep decent behavior, with God in mind.

There is plenty of evidence for creationism or perhaps intelligent design, if you want to remove religion from the topic for a second.

www.arn.org...

www.designinference.com...

You can also look at the works of Michael Behe and irreducible complexity.

Originally posted by sizzle
reply to post by Parabol

 

Hi,
Very interesting thread. Thanks for posting.
Although I am a Christian, I believe that both need to be taught side-by-side.

Which creationism story do you think should be taught alongside evolution? A christian one? Why would yours be more valid than other peoples?

This is why there is seperation of church and state.. saying it should be taught side by side with evolution is saying to non christians that your religion is nearly as credible as a science. There is no scientific evidence of any creator let alone a christian one specifically. There is however scientific evidence of ToE.

[edit on 6-4-2008 by riley]

reply to post by riley


riley brings up a good point....

which 'creationism' fantasy do you wish to pursue?

Let's start thinking, backwards as Humanity has tended to progress, and learn....where do we start?

2,000 years ago? No, that's not 'creation'....6,000 years ago?

OK, start there, we'll see what you can provide to convince us...and every other thinking, educated adult in the world....

Or....you could entertain an idea...either there is some sort of omnipotent being, who sees everything, but does nothing, all this time....about 13.5 Billion years....or this is a grand Experiment, started by an omnipotent being, about 13.5 Billion years ago.....who is seriously considering coming back and checking on his work in, say, another few million or billion years, since his time scale is obviously different than ours??

Choose one, and let us know what you think!!

Thanks.

reply to post by SevenThunders


Seven....ID?

One very closely held component of ID is the 'human eye'!

Well....hmmmm....OK. Let's ask this, can't wait to see your answers.

IF the human eye is so 'well designed'.....then why can't we see in the infrared...or, for that matter, why not in the UltraViolet? I mean, bees can't see the lower frequencies of light, but can see UV.

Wouldn't OUR eyes be 'designed' to see everything? Heck, we should even have extra protective eyelids, just in case we happen to look at the Sun, to help protect aganst the damage its intensity can do to our retinas...of course, our outer eyelids do that, but why not two eyelids, just in case?

OR, why not 'design' the eye to look directly at the sun, with no problem?

I can go on, I just used the 'eye' as a discussion point....don't get me started about excretions......

Hmm lets think about this for just a minute,

Actual physical bones in the ground, Versus, A theory...

Thats a real hard choice..

reply to post by C0le


The bones lack many transitional forms to support Darwinism. There's a huge gap between vertebrate and invertebrates, single celled and multi-celled organisms, etc. etc. Plus just try to reason through the absurdity of Darwinism. You are talking about self replicating machines more complex than any supercomputer or mechanical device devised by man, and one that includes an embedded software code (DNA). Somehow we are to believe that it all happened by accident. Highly improbable. If so I'll look for my fully formed pentium quad core duo chip next time I'm walking down the beach. After all it's filled with silicon sand, surely one has formed accidentally by now.


Also for some reason some of you are stuck on young earth creationism as though that's the correct interpretation of genesis. Someone did a caclulation that showed that from the perspective of the huge gravity well near the big bang some 7 days might pass whilst billions of years pass on earth. Remember time is relative. What is the creators time reference?

The fact is the Bible teaches that we've been in the 7'th day of creation for at least all of recorded human history. Thus not even the Bible supports a literal 7 day creation and even the word week used in the Hebrew simply means a period of 7 units of something.

I do find it interesting that the order of creation closely corresponds with the fossil record and geological strata.

reply to post by SevenThunders


I would like to point out that Darwinism is NOT the same thing as evolutionary science. The fact of the matter is that Darwin was the pioneer, but modern science has moved FAR beyond Charles Darwin(Who was a devout Christian).

reply to post by SevenThunders


Seven....do you really understand how fossils are formed?

Do you realize that there will not by a 'missing link' to satisfy your appetite for such a thing?

Can you please take the time to study the science of archeology, so you will then be able to respond appropriately?

OR....subscribe to a cable channel....or a satellite channel....and watch something from a science-oriented station....heck, you can find good stuff on PBS! Open your mind!

WW

reply to post by SevenThunders




You're basing your argument on a book written by man thousands of years ago to which there sanity and state of mind cant even be verified, And words claimed to be gods words of which god is supposed to be perfect, yet his book has more contradictions and inconsistencies then one can even begin to list...

Those who question the inconsistencies never get a legitimate answer as to why they exist other then "faith"

Yet ironically god sopposidly gave us free will, Yet he amazingly intervenes only in instances when Christians cant seem to make the world the world fit into there book...

Originally posted by SevenThunders

Also for some reason some of you are stuck on young earth creationism as though that's the correct interpretation of genesis.

The majority of Christians believe the proper interpretation is the 'New Earth' creationism. So you're in the minority of Christians there.

reply to post by C0le


Contradictions and inconsistencies are the lesser of evils. The OT, which of course creationism borrows from, espouses ruthless killing and genocide of people by todays worldview would deam 'innocents'.

For instance. Anyone that works on the Sabbath Day is supposed to be stoned to death. Millions work on the Sabbath Day Even some Christian stores work on the Sabbath Day lol..

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Hey, we get to choose what parts of our religion we like, and which ones we don't, to suit ourselves. It's not like we try to push our belifs on other people for... oh. Right. nevermind. Carry on.

Originally posted by forestlady

I have to disagree with you here, LL. What about biology? Some might even say climatology is about nature. Then there is botany, zoology, paleontology, geology and well, evolution. Those are just the ones I can think of right now that study nature. In fact, I would even venture to say that MOST of science is about Nature.

Eeek. I didn't mean Science was outside of Nature. I meant God was outside of Nature and therefore outside of Science.. Sorry, i think i messed up the wording.

Actually that isn't really reflective of my belief...I was trying to speak from 'the other side' I guess. As a Panentheist I believe God is both interconnected with everything in Nature, and is also outside of Nature. So I believe Nature is divine in itself

[edit on 013030p://7u35 by Lucid Lunacy]

You know what is really SAD about this situation is that it has not been laid to rest and buried yet....It is simply incredible that otherwise rational people cling to this system of religious beliefs for no better reason than other than being raised that way. So basically, anyone who believes in any religion has been indoctrinated and brainwashed since birth to believe that only their particular religion is correct and everybody else is wrong, screw the evidence.

It is SAD that in the year 2008, a vast majority of the human population truly believes in their religious mythology, despite there not being one shred of verifiable physical evidence pointing to the existence of a giant mind-reading invisible man in the sky who created the entire universe and everything in it over a seven day period. The bible was written by men for the express purpose of exerting control over the masses. See how well it's worked? Even today, people are willing to fight and die over this BS!

It is SAD that with all of the verifiable, repeatable experiments that have been used to demonstrate evolution and the mechanisms by which evolution takes place, that there are people who continue to deny the facts and embrace the ignorance of their religious beliefs, just because they were raised a certain way. Have we all lost the ability to think for ourselves and question the world around us? The concept of god has been relied upon for way too long as a crutch to prop people up so that they don't have to take responsibility for their own lives.

And now Texas wants to take it a step further? Geez, that's just what we need...stupider kids. Thanks, Texas! Today's youth has not been dumbed down nearly enough yet by our substandard educational system.

[edit on 7-4-2008 by keeb333]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
Eeek. I didn't mean Science was outside of Nature. I meant God was outside of Nature and therefore outside of Science.. Sorry, i think i messed up the wording.

Actually that isn't really reflective of my belief...I was trying to speak from 'the other side' I guess. As a Panentheist I believe God is both interconnected with everything in Nature, and is also outside of Nature. So I believe Nature is divine in itself

[edit on 013030p://7u35 by Lucid Lunacy]

How can something be outside of Nature? It it exists it is part of Nature. Therefore, if god exists, god is part of nature, and should be discernible through scientific observation, and even if such observations are presently outside the scope of our knowledge and ability, it does not follow that they will always be. Anyhow, the question still remains, even if there is an entity that could somehow be termed "God", how did this entity come into existence and why? Christians say that God always was and always will be, but this does not make any sense unless time is not linear.