Challenge to 757 impact at the Pentagon supporters...

Originally posted by CaptainObvious

All that and they could not agree on the type of airplane or if it hit the building or ground first.

Witness admits they did not know what hit the pentagon they were told later it was a 757.

NO official reports match the parts found to flight 77.

NONE OF THESE WITNESS TESTIMONIES WOULD HOLD UP IN COURT.

Glad to see C.O. has accepted the challenge.

So far he has presented zero independent verifiable evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon.

I am simply demonstrating how his belief in this notion is merely faith based.

That's certainly his right but this thread is simply helping him to realize it.

Sure there are witness reports of people who BELIEVE it was a 757 that hit the Pentagon but only first hand testimony is valid evidence and virtually no eyewitness other than perhaps an aviation professional would be able to definitively tell if the plane they saw for one or 2 seconds was a 757.

So....if we are to work with true critical thinking principles, valid verifiable eyewitness evidence that a 757 hit the building would have to be FIRST HAND testimony from an aviation professional who was in a position to see the plane AND the alleged impact point of the Pentagon.

A quote or report is not sufficient.

This is the scientific rigor we hold ourselves to when proving the official story false.

Why is it unreasonable to demand it from those who choose to dismiss the scientific evidence we present while rabidly defending the official story based on faith?

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT


Craig... I am simply showing ALL others that YOU ignore evidence.

the firefighter SAW a person strapped in their seat. HAve you contacted him to verify this?

I can post the thousands of pieces of evidence that prove what hit where and who died, and what damage was caused.

You are blind to ANYTHING that does not fit into your theory that was proven not possible.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious

I can post the thousands of pieces of evidence that prove what hit

That's the ONLY detail this challenge is about

So far you have posted none.

Until you personally obtain or find a video or audio account of a witness who was an aviation professional that could definitively tell it was a 757 and was in a position to definitively see it enter the building as reported you have nothing and must admit that your belief in the official story is faith based.

It's perfectly your right. You and about 99.9999999% of the population are in the same boat when it comes to accepting the official 9/11 story.

Fact is that you have not applied critical thinking principles and scientific reasoning to this debate despite your incredible devotion to challenging those who challenge your faith with evidence.





[edit on 5-4-2008 by Craig Ranke CIT]

Let me also add that EVEN IF you found an aviation professional witness and provided his first hand testimony this would not be enough to refute the evidence we have provided proving a military deception on MULTIPLE fronts.

That would take the equivalent of at least 6 first hand eyewitness accounts that the plane was specifically SOUTH of the citgo as well as numerous other sources directly refuting the multiple lines of independent verifiable evidence that we present proving the plane came from east of the river.

Good luck!

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
By now it should be clear that CIT has provided a large body of corroborated independent verifiable evidence proving the official Pentagon story false.

We have done this on multiple fronts most notably in regards to the fact that we have demonstrated how the plane came from east of the river and flew north of the former CITGO station.

Each of these claims prove a military deception on 9/11 for two completely separate reasons that are not dependent on each other.

My challenge for official story supporters is to provide independent verifiable evidence SPECIFICALLY that a 757 hit the Pentagon.

I suggest that they can provide none whatsoever.

Evidence controlled and provided for solely by the government is not independent.

Anyone who accepts the challenge and fails to provide the evidence requested must concede that I am correct or admit that they have chosen to reject scientific reasoning and evidence in favor of nothing but pure unadulterated faith in the government.


Good luck!

www.geocities.com...
wtc7lies.googlepages.com...
Who trust the government? We all are suppose to be the government; you did vote right? I mean who can we trust? I think if you would not cherry pick a few witnesses to manufacture your ideas, but used all the witnesses you would be trusted. But if you use all the witnesses and apply logic, scientific reasoning, and knowledge with some experience, you will see your implication of no 757 melts into the reality of truth when you find out the DNA was real, the 757 was real, and the terrorist were real.

Interesting how people use a subset of witness statements to make up any CT minded story they want when they suspend reality and scientific analysis.

After reviewing the evidence in the links above, you better not take your ideas to the Washington Post who would gladly get a Pulitzer Prize and kick Bush out of office for your implied CT, BUT your evidence does not prove anything. The overall evidence seen in the two links, does prove a 757 hit the Pentagon, and is backed up by all that "can't trust the gobermint" evidence you are ignoring and have not shown to be false. DNA; did you show the DNA to be false? Or is this an OJ thing, where you make your decisions based on not trusting the government and just use your own made up story?

I do not trust the government any more than your information, and I have to admit after looking at how you come up with your implied conclusions; I trust you less! Plus you are not giving me a refund! That reminds me, the government information is free, yours costs 15 bucks a DVD (it is for sale right?). Now who do you trust?

It comes down to this, you must have knowledge and experience to trust information. Your information seems to be made up from witness statements you have cherry picked, when examined with math and physics falls apart and is proven false. Your ideas can not be trusted based on the thousand pieces of evidence available for free on the internet and from many independent sources.

[edit on 5-4-2008 by beachnut]

Regarding credibility of at least some the alleged witnesses of the Pentagon hit, has anyone heard of "the amazing new PentaLawn 2000?"

www.thewebfairy.com...

The scariest thing about the whole 9/11 saga is that there were at least a few actual Pentagon "witnesses" who flat-out LIED when they claimed they saw a plane FIRST hit the grass and then BOUNCE up into the building. There's clearly a larger-scale premeditated cover up/conspiracy than most of us believe or want to believe. There wasn't a scratch on the lawn.

SOMETHING hit the Pentagon. I can't buy that it was planted explosives. How else to explain the big missile-sized hole in the building? (I don't have the pic, but pretty much everyone has seen it by now).

One more important point.....

I'd like to make it clear that I am not arguing that no first hand witness testimony exists that fully supports the official story.

Only that nobody has done what we did and sought to obtain it and provide it on video tape for everyone to analyze.

But the fact that we HAVE applied scientific reasoning and STILL had no problems obtaining multiple lines of independent verifiable evidence proving the official story false on multiple fronts has serious implications.

It means that many people had to have been involved with this operation and that deliberate planted witnesses exist who lied.

This is why it's important to provide evidence that is equal to or greater than what we provide in order to refute it.

Only if evidence on that level was provided should anyone begin to dismiss what we present.

This isn't unreasonable folks.

We held ourselves to this standard so the official conspiracy theory should be held to it as well.

The scariest thing about the whole 9/11 saga is that there were at least a few actual Pentagon "witnesses" who flat-out LIED when they claimed they saw a plane FIRST hit the grass and then BOUNCE up into the building. There's clearly a larger-scale premeditated cover up/conspiracy than most of us believe or want to believe. There wasn't a scratch on the lawn.

Lying ? To lie is a deliberate act - 757 was travelling at around 400mph
It struck a number of objects (cable drums, generator, electric vault)
in front of building before crash. People probably saw dust and debris
being kicked up by plane as skimmed over ground. Mistaken yes -
lying no. Seems anyone who disagrees with your paranoid fantasty
is lying.

Thedman, if those you refer to were simply misperceiving rather than lying, it's the most incredible case as such in history. An airplane hit-and-bounce sounds as unambiguous as it gets... Regardless, there's plenty of big-time lying coming from plenty of sources in this whole thing.

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

Craig,

Third time now - what sources would you accept as being independent?

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
You and about 99.9999999% of the population are in the same boat when it comes to accepting the official 9/11 story.

Too pessimistic.
Last poll I saw:

51% of Americans Want Congress to Probe Bush/Cheney Regarding 9/11 Attacks;
Over 30% Seek Immediate Impeachment;
67% also fault 9/11 Commission for not investigating anomalous collapse of World Trade Center 7

Zogby International September 06, 2007

But perhaps your point was that vanishingly few have access to any independent first-hand data.


[edit on 5-4-2008 by EvilAxis]

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
I can post the thousands of pieces of evidence that prove what hit where and who died, and what damage was caused.

Oh, really?

Just like you promised to post information about ALL alleged nineteen hijackers. But, at last count, you're only up to number six?

I too, can make immense claims and not follow through with them.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Oh, really?

Really... and if you noticed, I am posting Hijackers information. 1 or 2 a day...if your a good boy, I will post 3 tomorrow!

Now keep up and count the evidence as I present it to you.

Turner, Ron
Ron Turner, the Navy's deputy chief information officer, was standing solemnly at a funeral at Arlington National Cemetery when American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon Tuesday morning. He had only to turn to watch the disaster unfold.
"There was a huge fireball," he said, "followed by the [usual] black cloud of a fuel burn."
Turner, a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War, said the explosion was just the same as explosions of jet fighters and helicopters during his tour of duty in 1971.
"It reminded me of being back in Vietnam," he said, "watching Tan Son Nhut Air Base burn."

"Pentagon executives bear witness to terrorist attack," by Joshua Dean, Government Executive Magazine, 9/13/01

Hahr, Matt
According to Matt Hahr, Kirlin's senior project manager at the Pentagon, the employee "was thrown about 80 ft down the hall through the air. As he was traveling through the air, he says the ceiling was coming down from the concussion. He got thrown into a closet, the door slammed shut and the fireball went past him," recounts Hahr. "Jet fuel was on him and it irritated his eyes, but he didn't get burned. . . ."

"Saving the Pentagon, Part 1: Damage Control - Pentagon Shifts Into Higher Gear," by Victoria L. Tanner, Design·Build Web Magazine, October 2001

DiPaula, Michael
Michael DiPaula 41, project coordinator Pentagon Renovation Team -- He left a meeting in the Pentagon just minutes before the crash, looking for an electrician who didn't show, in a construction trailer less than 75 feet away. "Suddenly, an airplane roared into view, nearly shearing the roof off the trailer before slamming into the E ring. 'It sounded like a missile,' DiPaula recalls . . . Buried in debris and covered with airplane fuel, he was briefly listed by authorities as missing, but eventually crawled from the flaming debris and the shroud of black smoke unscathed.

Dead link: www.sunspot.net...

Evey, Walker Lee
[Walker Lee Evey, program manager of the Pentagon restoration project:] Fires from the plane's 20,000 gallons of fuel melted windows into pools of liquid glass.

"Rebuilding Pentagon a labor ahead of its time," by Peter Boylan, Grand Forks Herald / Knight Ridder, 3/8/02

Henson, Jerry
Inside . . . his office, Jerry Henson freed his hands enough to move rubble off of his shoulders. . . .
. . . Now fires were burning closer as deposits of jet fuel ignited.
"You could hear them lighting off," Henson said. "They would go `poof,' kind of like when you light a furnace. You could hear these getting closer."

"An anniversary of agony at the Pentagon," by Ryan Alessi and M.E. Sprengelmeyer, Scripps Howard News Service, 8/1/02

Jarvis, Will
From time spent on military aircraft as part of his job at the Pentagon, Will Jarvis . . . knows what aviation fuel smells like.
That smell was his only clue that a plane had crashed into the Pentagon, where he works as an operations research analyst for the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

"Testimony to Tragedy," University of Toronto Magazine, Winter 2002

Kirk, Mark Steven
Rep. Mark Steven Kirk (R-Ill.), a Naval Reserve intelligence officer. The first thing you smell is the burning. And then you can smell the aviation fuel. And then you can smell this sickly, rotten-meat smell, he said.

Mayer, Thom
Dr. Thom Mayer had cleared his emergency room early Tuesday morning, in expectation that Pentagon victims would be streaming into nearby Inova Fairfax hospital where he heads the ER staff. . . . By evening, he was out at the triage site at the Pentagon, wearing one of his other hats, as medical director of the Fairfax County Fire and Rescue team. He stayed there all night and into the next day . . .
At one point, he went into the charred opening, to check on the safety of workers there "There was jet fuel all over the place. It was very smoky, and it was difficult to breathe, even with a respirator," he said. " I saw horrifying things. It looked like the inner circle of Dante. . . . I stood there wondering, how did Dante know what this would look like."

"Washington's Heroes - On the ground at the Pentagon on Sept. 11," Newsweek, 9/28/01

Ramos, Maryann
Although it's been eight months since last September's terrorist attacks, for many of the medical personnel on duty that "horrific day" at the Pentagon, the memory of their experience is "permanently etched" in their minds, according to Maryann Ramos, MPH, an occupational health certified physician assistant for the Pentagon's Civilian Employees Health Service (CEHS). . . .
During the Feb. 5 interview with U.S. Medicine, Ramos said she had seen a female patient before the interview who still had coughing and upper respiratory problems stemming from Sept. 11. On that horrific morning, the woman had left her Pentagon office to go for a coffee, and returned to find that 23 of her co-workers had died in the crash. "We're still seeing patients with smoke inhalation and sinus infections," Ramos said. "There was mold left over on desks. When you have a whole plane with jet fuel, there will be [lingering] problems."

"Pentagon Medics Remember Sept. 11," by Matt Pueschel, U.S. Medicine, May 2002

Birdwell, Brian, LTC
He was just heading back down the hall to his office when the building exploded in front of him. . . .
. . . [He was] transferred . . . to George Washington Hospital where [he was treated by] the best, cutting edge burn doctor in the U.S. The doctor told him that had he not gone to Georgetown first, he probably would not have survived because of the jet fuel in his lungs.

"Pentagon Survivor LTC Brian Birdwell," USMA 1961 Luncheon Speaker, July 18, 2002

Rosati, Arthur
"The `muscle part' of your brain takes over and you just do what you've been trained to do," said Arthur Rosati, a member of the Pentagon Police and the union shop steward for the Fraternal Order of Police D.C. 1 Lodge. . . .
Rosati was in a meeting when the plane hit. "I ran down the hallway and there was smoke everywhere. You could smell the jet fuel, it was unbearable," he said. "I was overcome with smoke, but managed to get a lieutenant colonel out. I went back in to the hallway. The smoke was so dense I couldn't stay. I was ordered out."

"The Pentagon's first heroes in a day of heroes," Henderson Hall News / dcmilitary.com, 9/28/01

Schickler, Rob
Rob Schickler, a Baylor University 2001 graduate and Arlington, Va. resident, said. "A plane flew over my house," (one mile away from the Pentagon). "It was loud, but not unusual because the [Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport] is by my house, on the other side of the Pentagon. Occasionally planes that miss the landing fly over my house." "A few seconds later, there was this sonic boom," he said. "The house shook, the windows were vibrating."
"There was a hole in the building, and you could smell it in the air. It's a beautiful day, but you can smell the burning concrete and burning jet fuel."

Dead link: www3.baylor.edu...

Some more evidence of a plane... (Jet Fuel)

Pfeilstucker, Daniel C. Jr.
Daniel C. Pfeilstucker Jr., caught in the flying debris, didn't know if he was going to make it out alive. The Pentagon was on fire. "It was horrifying," Mr. Pfeilstucker says . . . Danny Pfeilstucker is a commissioning agent for John J. Kirlin Inc., a Maryland-based mechanical contracting company that worked on the Pentagon renovation project that was nearing completion September 11. . . . Kirlin Inc., among many companies involved in renovating the Pentagon since the early 1990s, was in charge of updating plumbing and heating units. Around 9:30 a.m., Mr. Pfeilstucker and a co-worker got orders to check a hot-water leak in a third-floor office on the western side. After doing so, he stepped off an elevator on the second floor in Corridor 4, ladder in hand. Suddenly the walls and the ceiling began to collapse around him. The lights went out. "It went from light to dark to orange to complete black," Mr. Pfeilstucker says. "It was so dark I couldn't even see my hand in front of my face. "Within seconds, his left leg buckled. Unable to grab on to anything, he was thrust 70 feet down the corridor and into a tiny telephone closet halfway down the hallway connecting E Ring and A Ring. All I know is that the blast must have pushed open the steel door to the closet," says Mr. Pfeilstucker, who had been 40 feet away from the plane's point of impact. He remembers shutting the door and trying to stand up, not understanding what had just happened. "I thought it was some sort of a construction blast," Mr. Pfeilstucker says. "Or maybe there was a helicopter accident." His hard hat and work goggles were blown away. His ladder also had disappeared. . . . The fire sprinklers came on as the temperature shot up. Then he smelled jet fuel and smoke. The putrid odor was seeping into the closet. "It was this odor that I can't describe, but one that I'll never forget, that's for sure," Mr. Pfeilstucker says. "It was so hard to breathe. I didn't think I was going to make it out."

Dead link: www.washtimes.com...

Owens, Mary Ann
Gripping the steering wheel of my vibrating car, I ducked as the wobbling plane thundered over my head. Once it passed, I raised slightly and saw the left wing dip and scrape the helicopter area just before the nose crashed into the southwest wall of the Pentagon.
Still gripping the wheel, I could feel both the car and my heart jolt at the moment of impact. An instant inferno blazed about 125 yards from me. The plane, the wall and the victims disappeared under coal-black smoke, three-story tall flames and intense heat.
"The day thought I was going to die", by Mary Ann Owens, This is Local London, 9/11/02

Shaeffer, Kevin
Another floor down, in the Navy Command Center, Lt. Kevin Shaeffer was sprawled by the shock wave, then watched from the floor as a roiling, bright orange ball of fire shot toward him and everything -- cubicles, desks, ceiling tiles, the building's concrete support columns -- everything blew to pieces. Flames bathed his skin, his eyes, his lungs.
The room went dark. Shaeffer, dazed, prone on the carpet, realized his back and head were on fire. He rolled to put himself out, then staggered to his feet. He ran a hand through his hair. His scalp felt wet. . . .
He saw none of the 29 others who'd been in the room. From the dark came groans and whimpers, the unconscious sounds of the dying, but those who made them were invisible. "Is anybody here?" Shaeffer hollered. "Can anyone hear me?"
No one answered. Thoughts collided in his head: He had to stay alive. He had to see Blanca again. And he had very little time -- the air, already reeking of kerosene, was filling with a choking black smoke. He had to move.

"Inside the Pentagon on 9/11: Trial by Fire," by Earl Swift, The Virginia-Pilot, 9/8/02

Slater, Mike
As soon as Mr. Slater stepped outside, he saw and smelled something uncomfortably familiar. "I saw a mass of oily smoke and thought of the oil fields of Kuwait," he said. "There were 3,000 Americans killed in Pearl Harbor, this will be at least that many, if not more, and I hope Congress has the guts to do something about it."

"A Hijacked Boeing 757 Slams Into the Pentagon," by Don Van Natta and Lizette Alvarez, New York Times / ObituaryRegistry.com, 9/11/01

Wallace, Alan
Alan Wallace usually worked out of the Fort Myer fire station, but on Sept. 11 he was one of three firefighters assigned to the Pentagon's heliport. Along with crew members Mark Skipper and Dennis Young, Wallace arrived around 7:30 in the morning. . . . Wallace and Skipper were walking along the right side of the truck . . . when the two looked up and saw an airplane. It was about 25 feet off the ground and just 200 yards away -- the length of two football fields. They had heard about the WTC disaster and had little doubt what was coming next. "Let's go," Wallace yelled. Both men ran.
. . . Wallace hadn't gotten far when the plane hit. "I hadn't even reached the back of the van when I felt the fireball. I felt the blast," he says. He hit the blacktop near the left rear tire of the van and quickly shimmied underneath. "I remember feeling pressure, a lot of heat," he says. He crawled toward the front of the van, then emerged to see Skipper out in the field, still standing. "Everything is on fire. The grass is on fire. The building is on fire. The firehouse is on fire," Wallace recalls. "There was fire everywhere. Areas of the blacktop were on fire."
. . . His boots were on fire. His fire pants filled with debris. The fire alarm was blaring.

"Washington's Heroes - On the ground at the Pentagon on Sept. 11," Newsweek, 9/28/01

Yates, John
Security officer John Yates was picked up and hurled 30 feet. . . .
. . . a fireball rolled through the cubicle farm like a wave, with bulbous head and tapered tail, and as it passed, everything around it burst into flames. Cabinets overturned, partitions exploded, ceiling tiles burned and danced and fell with their metal frames.
John Yates came to his senses to find that his death was at hand. He could not breathe. He could not see. The room was ablaze around him. . . .
His glasses remained on his face. They were smeared with something -- unburned jet fuel, which Yates mistook for blood. He carefully took them off, folded them, and slipped them into his shirt pocket, then stumbled toward the big room's interior.

"Inside the Pentagon on 9/11: Trial by Fire," by Earl Swift, The Virginia-Pilot, 9/8/02

Aviation Now
The large aircraft struck the outermost corridor (E-ring) of the five-ring building at ground level (the second floor) at 9:43 a.m. EDT and continued smashing its way through the D and C rings. . . .
The E-ring floors above the tunnel dug by the aircraft collapsed, leaving a gap in the Pentagon's outer wall perhaps 150 ft. wide. Fuel triggered an intense fire that caused the roof of the damaged E-ring section to give way at 10:10 a.m. It was still burning 18 hr. later.

"Pentagon Attack Hits Navy Hard," by David A. Fulghum, Aviation Week & Space Technology, 9/17/01

USA Today
The massive explosion and fire fed by 20,000 gallons of jet fuel spread destruction over 2 million square feet -- almost a third of the building. It killed 189 people, 125 inside and 64 on the plane.
Luck -- if it can be called that -- had it that the terrorists aimed the Boeing 757 at the only part of the Pentagon that already had been renovated in an 11-year, $1.3 billion project meant to bolster it against attack. That significantly limited the damage and loss of life by slowing the plane as it tore through the building and reducing the explosion's reach.
In the renovated section outside the immediate crash zone, most damage was caused by smoke and water that poured out of brand-new sprinklers. Many of these offices are occupied again.
But there was extensive fire damage hundreds of feet away in unrenovated areas that had not yet had sprinklers installed. The fire was so intense it cracked concrete.

"Pentagon repairs to cost $700 million," Associated Press / USATODAY.com, 1/1/02

Quotes from the Witness list:

Steve Riskus:
"I could see the "American Airlines" logo...It knocked over a few light poles in its way."

Mark Bright: "...at the height of the street lights. It knocked a couple down."

Mike Walter: "...it clipped one of these light poles ... and slammed right into the Pentagon right there. It was an American Airlines jet."

Rodney Washington: "...knocking over light poles"

Kirk Milburn: "I heard a plane. I saw it. I saw debris flying. I guess it was hitting light poles."

Afework Hagos: "It hit some lampposts on the way in."

Kat Gaines: "saw a low-flying jetliner strike the top of nearby telephone poles."

D.S. Khavkin: "First, the plane knocked down a number of street lamp poles."

Wanda Ramey: "I saw the wing of the plane clip the light post, and it made the plane slant.

Penny Elgas: A piece of American Airlines Flight 77 was torn from the plane as it clipped a light pole. It landed in her car. Now in the Smithsonian Institution's 9/11 collection.

Lincoln Liebner: "It was probably about thirty feet off the ground, clipping the lampposts. I could clearly see through the windows of the plane. It was maybe going 500 miles an hour - when it just flew...into the Pentagon ... less than a hundred yards away."

[edit on 5-4-2008 by CaptainObvious]

I was just about to make my turn up the sidewalk towards one of the entrances when I heard jet engines. It was not the normal jet track into National Airport, which is very, very different. I turned my head about maybe 90 degrees towards the sound of the engines, which were very loud. I fully expected to see A-10s or F-15s or something, and I saw the American Airlines airplane coming down. I watched the entire terminal descent into the building. It’s probably the loudest noise I ever heard in my life. I have heard artillery very close. I have heard rock concerts, but nothing came close to that noise. I watched the entire airplane go into the building.

history.amedd.army.mil...

"The other person who was instrumental and did an outstanding job throughout all of this was an Air Force Master Sergeant, Master Sergeant Sepulveda, who left the building because his meeting was over, and right when he walked out, he actually saw the plane hit the Pentagon and it knocked him on the ground. He got up immediately afterwards and ran right to the explosion area. We hooked up right at the very beginning and worked side-by-side during the entire operation. His assistance was invaluable. He had experience at the Beirut bombing as well." –Lieutenant Colonel Patty Horoho–

history.amedd.army.mil...

Engine 101 actually saw the jetliner plow into the northwest side of the Pentagon. The radio crackled, “Engine 101—emergency traffic, a plane has gone down into the Pentagon. I made a quick U-turn and was on scene within a minute to a minute and a half of the initial impact.

arlingtonfirejournal.blogspot.com...



[edit on 5-4-2008 by CaptainObvious]

Personal Remains from the Pentagon.



These are the Parents of the family that died including the only member not to be identified. A 3 year old girl.



Their story here:

onlineathens.com...



[edit on 5-4-2008 by CaptainObvious]

This is a graph that shows where the remains were found and if they were at the Pentagon or on flight 77.

Originally posted by coughymachine
reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

 

Craig,

Third time now - what sources would you accept as being independent?

I've already been talking about it.

Basically anything other than data or info that was solely controlled by the suspect which in this case is the government.

Yes that means that almost none exists but that's my point. That's why they were able to pull this off. There was zero transparency and blatantly egregious secrecy even though this was the worst attack on American soil.

People simply chose to have faith they were being told the truth about 9/11 as the hysteria and continuous propaganda afterwards ruled over any objective skepticism while the doctrine of preemption and permanent global war steamrolled ahead. We were not allowed to ask questions and we still aren't.

At this point eyewitness accounts are probably all you're going to be able to find for independent evidence.

The most independent you can get would be previously unknown civilian eyewitness accounts that you personally find and report.

But for the sake of the challenge ANY first hand testimony will suffice.

That means audio or video of the actual witness making the actual claim.

Of course we must not forget that a crime of this nature would HAVE to involve planted operatives who are lying to support the official story. There is no way around this.

But to be honest, as I tried to explain to you....the "challenge" is really only academic. I'm merely showing why the evidence we present is so important and how the official story has NOT been proven if you apply truly objective scientific reasoning and critical skepticism to the official claims.

This is why it's sheer LUNACY to dismiss or marginalize ANY independent verifiable evidence that DOES exist particularly if it proves the official story false.

Especially when it is as strong and broad as the body of evidence that we present.

The implications are very difficult for most to consider objectively so they often choose to attack and drown them out with faith based claims.

The extreme irony is that the most aggressive personalities behaving this way often consider themselves "skeptics" or "critical thinkers".

This thread exposes their hypocritical logic.

They remind me of angry judgmental Christian fundamentalist moral police types who are really closet sexual deviants.