The Reason It Really Doesn't Matter if God Exists...

I am not a parrent as some of you may be, but if you are a loving mother or father, if you had a child who did something bad, no matter how bad and it doesent matter wether they knew it was bad or not, would you send them to eternal damnnation to the firey pitts of hell? I would certainly hope not. So you truely think god did that with his child(satan)?
come on he is a loving god does that sound like something a loving god would do? If thats what you think of a loving god, and i dont care what any religious doctrine says thats pure contridiction in its self.......no wonder we have loving parrents murdering their children. Religios people have so much to learn.

reply to post by the basset hound


See... that was the initial question that brought me to a point of turning away. I asked this, and completely came to a loss. And I had MANY people say, "God doesn't send, he allows"... That is NOT enough! It makes no sense why a loving, POWERFUL God would just "allow" children to burn.

We don't know what comes after death. If we ARE wrong, I would think he could see the fact that in all fairness, we don't have eternal eyesight to know what is on the other side. So He should display His love, and say, "You were wrong, but I will allow you to live peacefully" Instead of, "Yeah.. ha ha Told ya he was there! How do you like that pitchfork in your arse?!" (obviously not what I'm sure would be said, but just kidding anyway)

The point is: Would He truly let us burn just because we chose our own path?

Which in fact, comes back to the original post again: It doesn't matter if He exists.

reply to post by Thurisaz


The sin of offending the spirit is unforgivable because, once you block out the voice of God speaking to your conscience, you do not have the desire to be forgiven.

hold up.

over and over again you keep refering to hell and how unfair it is that god is¨burning our children¨

yes eternal torment would be the act of an unloving god, but a fiery hell is UNbiblical

reply to post by miriam0566




"Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest, this shall be the portion of their cup."

"Luke 16:22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

"Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

These are a few of MANY scriptures which mention fires and flames in hell. It IS biblical. And it doesn't sound like a loving act for Him to allow His children to go there. Even if He doesn't send them, He "allows" them. It's still NOT loving. It says it's forever.

I have been upset at my girls before, but it wouldn't matter even if they shot me and left me for dead in a jungle a million miles from nowhere. I still would never let them burn forever. Or be tormented forever. If you wish to remove the fire. It just isn't an act of a loving father.

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
reply to post by miriam0566

 

"Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest, this shall be the portion of their cup."

like sodom and gommorah (sp?) this is something that happens that kills them. it doesn´t happen after

"Luke 16:22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

and illustration he used showing regret. see also the virgen of the marriage feast and thier ¨gnashing of the teeth¨

"Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

lake of fire, refers to gehenna. if you look up info on it you´ll find its parallelling a literal gehenna in which stuff was burned and could not be salvaged. criminal´s bodies were also thrown there.

means perminant destruction

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

again, what does fire do? it destroys

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

regret then destruction

how do we know this?

eccl 9:[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

the bible says that the dead do not think.

rom 5:[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

this implies that if adam had not sinned, then no one would die. if noone would die, then why would god make us with an immortal soul that goes to heaven or hell?

rom 6:[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

so death itself is punishment for sin, not hell. also, if eternal life is the reward, and people in hell are conscience of the pain and torment, then how would this scripture make sense?

gen 2:7, gen 6:17, gen 7:22 all point to the spirit of man being a ¨breath¨of life. so is that spirit immortal? what is the spirit?

james 2:[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

what happens to the spirit?

psalm 146:[4] His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

eccl 12:[7] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

so again. we dies, our thoughts stop. our ¨live force¨ returns to god. (extra note, the words here translate ruach, which mean breath, or spirit, not soul)

so what is our soul?

gen 2:7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

so adam wasn´t given a soul, he IS a soul. and he died. so what happened to him?

ezekial 18:[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

so the soul is not immortal

is hell a place of torment?

acts 2:[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

so jesus even went to hell. if jesus was perfect and hell was eternal damnation, how can this scripture make sense?

1 cor 15:[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

so hell is the grave, ill show you some scriptures that support that.

job 14:[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

intersting to note, the original lexicon has ¨grave¨as ¨sheol¨ or hell. so job was praying to go to hell to end his suffering. this would make sense if hell was the grave or a state of inactivity.

and the most damning scripture of all for the hellfire doctrine is found in revelation.

20:[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

if hell is the lake of fire, how can it then be thrown into the lake of fire? the beginning of 20 goes on about blessing for mankind, the scripture is saying death will be no more.

so to review.

we are souls. when we die, ours souls die too (not immortal). when we die, he don´t think (can´t be tormented). when we die, our ¨breath¨or lifeforce returns to god. hell is the grave.

is this in harmony with the rest of the bible?

john 5:[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

a cornerstone of christian faith is the resurrection (hebrews 6:1,2). why would we need the ressurection if we are immortal spirits and have already got whats coming to us? the second death mentioned a rev 20 doesn´t make sense if you go by the teaching of the church.

those who are good are resurrected and recieve life eternal. those who are bad are resurrected and are judged (the lexicon, damnation can also be translated as judgement)(given a second chanceto prove themselves). if they turn out to be good, then they recieve eternal life. if not, then they are thrown in to the ¨lake of fire¨or eternal destruction, non-existence.

as for when, my guess (only a guess) is that the resurrection is sometime after armegeddon

reply to post by miriam0566


thank you for the response.

I sincerely appreciate your contributions here and thank you for posting and sharing your understanding and knowledge.

LOL I am following you around lately...

cheers

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
I would have to believe He is loving enough that He will still let you pass. If He is so loving, could He truly allow His beloved children to burn?

The Shepherd of the sheep does not allow the wolf to enter for he endangers the flock.
While the shepherd loves the wolf and allows him to roam free outside the gates, the safety and tranquility of the flock is maintained within.

The wolf is not terminated, merely kept outside the gate.

For it is written:

Revelation

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Further...

A mountain of granite is before you. You break off a large piece of stone and carve an image of a man.
Was the image of the man always in the mountain, or did it take the stoneworker to bring him out? Surely the stone did not call out to be formed.

Consider all that makes you. Then consider the mountain from which we are hewn.

Respect the stoneworker, and know that without him, you are naught.

Peace

Those are of course only applicable if you believe in God in the first place. It's a lot like the argument my parents try. They try to use the bible to prove the bible. Doesn't work.

The bible has far too many stories that have been taken from other, much older religions. He simply doesn't exist.

It's not that bad really. I feel much more free now than I did when I was an evangelist. So many rules. Now, I'm still a good guy, but without the thoughts of being in eternal torment.

I believe in science. That energy cannot be destroyed, nor created. We simply are. And when we die, we return. In one form or another...

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
Those are of course only applicable if you believe in God in the first place. It's a lot like the argument my parents try. They try to use the bible to prove the bible. Doesn't work.

im not "proving" the bible. the fact is, you made a thread and used a doctrine that churches use as a stepping stone to make your point. what im trying to show you is that you have no point. hellfire is not supported by the bible and i believe i made a VERY good case for that.

before, i used to think the bible was riddled with contradictions. after i really began to look into what it really said i discovered those contradictions were because of doctrines that the churchs pushed on people. why? i dont know. but those doctrines arent really supported.

i mean it doesnt take an idiot to see that a god who makes a fiery torment for all eternity isnt a loving god. but thats not what the bible says. so why use it to condemn the bible?

The bible has far too many stories that have been taken from other, much older religions. He simply doesn't exist.

do you really know for sure that the stories were taken from other religions? or are you just assuming so because someone makes a convincing arguement?

It's not that bad really. I feel much more free now than I did when I was an evangelist. So many rules. Now, I'm still a good guy, but without the thoughts of being in eternal torment.

im happy for you, really. but im sorry you fell for the eternal torment BS.

I believe in science. That energy cannot be destroyed, nor created. We simply are. And when we die, we return. In one form or another...

science also has a law that states that life must come from other life, that nonliving matter cannot spawn life. yet some "scientists" ignore this law when talking about the origin of life. go science!

reply to post by miriam0566



I have to admit. You are highly intelligent, and I truly commend you for taking on such tough questions. Perhaps I should have just come to ATS/BTS when I first began to wander away from my faith in the first place.

But it seems that you interpret the bible completely different from many theologians who have studied their entire life to come to the conclusions I'm bringing up. Of course, that is why they call it the "The Living Word", because it speaks to each of us differently.

When my older brother first came to my mother and I with stories of the Samarian texts, we pretty much went off the wall. We reminded him of how wrong he was, and I even got in contact with an ancient text professor who told me exactly what I wanted to hear. That those texts weren't older then the adam-ite language. But then my brother found many other professors who said otherwise. Would be nice to be a learned man in these areas so I would just know for myself. But in the end, it seems we are all stuck with the advice, or intellect of other men instead.

The fact is... everything we believe in has been taught from someone else. So if I believe the way I do now because someone had a great argument or not.. it still came from someone else.

You believe in the bible, though it seems a few times you interpret it completely differently than I have ever heard. The bible has been written by men, put together by men, and altered by men. Stories that are around in many languages and then taken by the Israelites for their own religion. Have you watched the Esoteric Agenda? Or the Zeitgeist movie? Or researched the age of the bible compared to the stories of Egyptian stories?

You say there is no fiery hell, but millions of preachers are teaching it every single day. So you say it will only be a tormenting place... does that truly make it any better? And then you say that a lot of those scriptures weren't being literal. But I would ask you... how do you know?

I do have a point, and a very good one. The bible is made by men to control the populations. And if there is a God, the one of the Bible, to be more specific.... I do not believe He would send those He supposedly loves so much, into everlasting darkness. To simply not exist. And if He does exist... than you are in as much trouble as all of the rest of us, because I seriously doubt anyone on this planet is passionate enough about Him to actually succeed according to His standards.

Which in my opinion does make my case...

It really doesn't matter if God exists...

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
reply to post by miriam0566

 

I have to admit. You are highly intelligent, and I truly commend you for taking on such tough questions. Perhaps I should have just come to ATS/BTS when I first began to wander away from my faith in the first place.

thank you. i believe the same of you. i also have respect for you because you are asking questions.

But it seems that you interpret the bible completely different from many theologians who have studied their entire life to come to the conclusions I'm bringing up.

there are several problems i feel with the way people read the bible. some of it stems from people reading what they want to hear. in another thread, someone questioned what god's name was. now there is a scripture that blatenly says it, "that I, whose name is Jehovah". now why isn't that the end of the discussion? someone else brought up exodus and cited paragraphs as to why god said "i am that i am" or something like that. people have this romance with the scriptures. to them its something mystical and mysterious. the scripture in psalms just isnt mystical enough. so people come up with this complex thing. simply speaking, god gave us 2 simple scriptures. in psalm "jehovah", and in matt 6 (lords prayer) "let your name be sanctified". matt 6 shows that knowing god's name is important. thats the simple example.

it doesnt take alot of interpretting to figure that out.

hellfire has the same simplicity. there are scriptures that very bluntly say there is no afterlife. your dead, then you dont exist. that was my starting point on this subject. these scriptures cannot be simply ignored, nor can they be written off as figurative because of thier context.

now assuming the bible is written by god (i undertsand you feel different but bear with me) then there cannot be contradictions. so now you need to look at the context. thats when i found the scriptures such as job wanting to die and jesus himself going to hell. in my mind i was starting to think that hellfire wasnt what it seemed. also the scripture that god is love was a big red flag, a huge contradiction to hellfire.

it wasn't until someone told me the historical significance of gehenna that it bagan to click for me. fire didnt mean torment, it ment destruction. revelation 20 proves that when hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire.

yes the bible is partly literal and partly figurative, but the interesting thing is that it provides the context to find out which is which.

When my older brother first came to my mother and I with stories of the Samarian texts, we pretty much went off the wall. We reminded him of how wrong he was, and I even got in contact with an ancient text professor who told me exactly what I wanted to hear. That those texts weren't older then the adam-ite language. But then my brother found many other professors who said otherwise. Would be nice to be a learned man in these areas so I would just know for myself. But in the end, it seems we are all stuck with the advice, or intellect of other men instead.

so that leaves you with two people who have different opinions. informative yes, but i wouldn't write it down as proof. but thats just my standards

The fact is... everything we believe in has been taught from someone else. So if I believe the way I do now because someone had a great argument or not.. it still came from someone else.

true, however for it to be truthful, it must be verifyable. noone questions that the bible is largly unchanged because the manuscripts can be examined. they are there. people can claim otherwise, but in the end biblical claims can be verified. if it can be verified, its of little consquence if someone taught you or not.

You believe in the bible, though it seems a few times you interpret it completely differently than I have ever heard. The bible has been written by men, put together by men, and altered by men. Stories that are around in many languages and then taken by the Israelites for their own religion. Have you watched the Esoteric Agenda? Or the Zeitgeist movie? Or researched the age of the bible compared to the stories of Egyptian stories?

i see what your saying. but from my experience the bible is from god. i wont get into the full story of how i came to that conclusion, but the part that did it for me was prophecy.

You say there is no fiery hell, but millions of preachers are teaching it every single day. So you say it will only be a tormenting place... does that truly make it any better? And then you say that a lot of those scriptures weren't being literal. But I would ask you... how do you know?

actually i dont think theres a tormanting place. eccl cleary states that when your dead, you are dead.

preachers teach hellfire for the obvious reasons. just because they ahve a large number doesnt mean they arent wrong.

The bible is made by men to control the populations. And if there is a God, the one of the Bible, to be more specific.... I do not believe He would send those He supposedly loves so much, into everlasting darkness. To simply not exist. And if He does exist... than you are in as much trouble as all of the rest of us, .....

if you don't believe god exists, is your future much better? death is death.

the question raised in the garden of eden was simple, was god being unfair?

adam and eve lived in a paradise. they where told to populate the earth and to care for it. they were given a simple command to avoid ONE tree. they were told clearly that the consquense for eating from that tree was death.

was that REALLY unfair?

no it was fair. remember, god didnt turn his back on adam and eve, they turned thier back on him. they made a decision and stuck with it. they decided they wanted more (more of what i dont know, i wouldve loved to have thier life)

god is love but he is also a god of justice. he had to carry out is word.

are any of us worthy of life. no. am i? definatly not. i know for a fact i am not getting mercy.

god extents his mercy to those who want it. i showed you scriptures before that show that. a god of love would show mercy, but there has to be some desire on the person's part to recieve that mercy

I thought a lot about what you have said. I came to a simple conclusion: Time will tell.

You believe in God, so you argue for His side, and on His defense. I don't anymore, so I am having difficulty in accepting those ideas.

Each day, more and more people are turning from Christianity. More than not, they turn into atheists. People begin searching for truth, and oddly.. they usually end up leaving the faith in this pursuit. It was my journey for truth that took me away. And here I am now. Content, and free. I'm not worried at all that I could be wrong.

It seems the more I seek truth, the more fallacies I actually find in religion. All religions.

But, I want to thank you very much for your input. You are incredibly intelligent, and when it comes to bringing out scripture, you rock. If the God of the bible is real, I would say you're getting the red carpet rolled out. lol

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ If the God of the bible is real, I would say you're getting the red carpet rolled out. lol

lol, i seriesly doubt that. but thank you.

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
Time will tell.

In the beginning, there was the Word
The Word in the beginning was Time
Time began and the Word was begun

You wont read that in any Bible. Nor in any uncovered text.

The Truth is the Truth is the Truth
The Truth terminates hate, and ultimately restores the Truth

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
Time will tell.

Indeed...

In time, all that is hidden will be revealed

Before you realize the Truth, the Truth will already be upon you

Peace

reply to post by HIFIGUY



Ah... that was interesting. Could you elaborate on what you feel is unquestionable truth? Because... where I am standing, your version of truth, if you believe in Jehovah, is not in fact truth. And many would agree with me. And many do.

Why does it have to be so dramatic? Why does it have to be either, or? You know a little of what I think in my threads. But, the religious and the atheist can both be extremes, and to me, both do not work. Look at the confusion! Generally what I see is, a person jumping out of one box into another.

Often we can over analyze things and still miss the point. It certainly is not rare to believe in religion with all of its doctrines, nor is it rare to throw everything out and believe in nothing. Everything including science had to start somewhere. Many evolutionists overlook the beginning of creation of living organisms or matter and jump to evolution because they do not have an intelligent answer to give regarding the beginning of time and all matter. It's just not intelligent reasoning.

Do you see the Pollyanna world everyone lives in? How much foundation does opinion carry? But the question is: are we still being herded about like sheep still not thinking for ourselves? Why jump out of one box right into another?

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I feel I should point out that I am not an atheist. I'm sure I have come across as such, and may have even used the word a little too much. But I am not. I believe in higher beings. Just not the God Jehovah.

Matrix... in Gen. 2:21-22 it talks about the creation of woman. How she was taken from the rib of man, and built from that. Some say this is genetic engineering. Why after all.. would GOD need anything to make something? Why not poof?

We did come from somewhere.. but I do NOT believe in the God of the bible. It still explains creation from somewhere, just not from Him. And certainly not from evolution. I know I didn't evolve from an ape. lol

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


Oh, I understand that. My God is a lot different then the God I was familiar with in religion. My experience is that Jah is a very logical God, not given to "poof!" There is too much poof in evolution as it is.

So what is your concept of God? I have heard what it is not. This interests me.

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
. Could you elaborate on what you feel is unquestionable truth? Because... where I am standing, your version of truth, if you believe in Jehovah, is not in fact truth. And many would agree with me. And many do.

There is one persons Truth
There is the other persons Truth
and there is The Truth

And while many may agree with you, no matter,

The Truth is what the Truth is.

Peace


[edit on 15-4-2008 by HIFIGUY]