The militarization of the police

Originally posted by jackinthebox
That's one of the reasons the police can do random warrantless bag searches now, without a Constitutional amendment.

I have to have reasonable suspicion to search someones bag, however I can pat someone down for officer safety.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
How about getting a chip? 30,000 cops in Britain are getting it for "safety" reasons. You gonna take the mark of the beast when the time comes?

I cant see any reason for someone to get "chipped" unless they had a severe medical condition, I dont see this turning into much.


Lt.

reply to post by The_Future_LT

I have to have reasonable suspicion to search someones bag, however I can pat someone down for officer safety.

So? The point is that warrantless bag searches without probable cause has been "legalized."

I don't agree with the pat-downs either though, unless a person is being arrested. Why should you be able to disarm me before you violate even more rights?

Originally posted by jackinthebox
I don't agree with the pat-downs either though, unless a person is being arrested. Why should you be able to disarm me before you violate even more rights?

Before I start talking to someone who might have commited a crime, I want to make sure they dont not have a gun, knife, needle, etc. that they can use to injure me if they try to run away/inflict bodily damage. Do you not understand "officer safety"?

Originally posted by jackinthebox
So? The point is that warrantless bag searches without probable cause has been "legalized."

My departments policy is that if you suspect something and are relatively sure you will find drugs, then you call the passive K9 unit before you search.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
I don't agree with the pat-downs either though, unless a person is being arrested. Why should you be able to disarm me before you violate even more rights?

Disarm you? If you have a weapon, the cops will ask for your CCW. No big deal, you show it, you're good to go. They aren't going to take your weapon if you have the proper license, unless you're carrying in an area where you're not suppose to have a weapon (like the knucklehead that was carrying in the NY State Capital).

reply to post by The_Future_LT

Before I start talking to someone who might have commited a crime, I want to make sure they dont not have a gun, knife, needle, etc. that they can use to injure me if they try to run away/inflict bodily damage. Do you not understand "officer safety"?

Yes I do, but the power is abused. There are some officers who will pat down just about every person they talk to. Perhaps I should clarify my position a bit here though. If you have have reasonable suspicion that the person poses a threat or might be carrying a weapon, I would go along with the pat-down. Especially in cases where an arrest is imminent. But putting someone up against a wall just because they are in the wrong neighborhood is not acceptable. Patting down someone who is not a specific target in an investigation is not acceptable. Patting someone down in a traffic stop just because they have tinted windows is not acceptable. Paating down a bunch of kids just riding around in a car is not acceptable, even if you have a gut feeling that one of them probably has a dime-bad of bid stuck in their shorts.

It's just like any other power given to police officers. I remember when the Taser came out. It was supposed to be used as an alternative to using their firearm. Now it's used on people for not signing their traffic ticket.

reply to post by The_Future_LT

My departments policy is that if you suspect something and are relatively sure you will find drugs, then you call the passive K9 unit before you search.

And that's exactly how it should be done. But that is certainly not the way it is done everywhere. That is not the policy of every department, nor is it necessarily enforced if it is.

There's one department not far from me that has been going through scandal for years, to the point that the Feds stepped in and made a list of recommendations, including enforcing the basic simple requirement that officers wear name tags. They still don't wear the tags, and that's just the start of it.

reply to post by jerico65

Disarm you? If you have a weapon, the cops will ask for your CCW. No big deal, you show it, you're good to go. They aren't going to take your weapon if you have the proper license, unless you're carrying in an area where you're not suppose to have a weapon (like the knucklehead that was carrying in the NY State Capital).

Please don't misunderstand me. I believe that everyone should be allowed to carry everywhere they go, but I am also aware that this is not the case. There are laws, and carrying an illegal weapon is not acceptable by any standards.

I was stopped when I was nineteen, because me and a friend "fit the description of someone who was vandalizing mailboxes." Mind you, no mailboxes had been vandalized for miles around or we would have known. Anyway, they got us out of the car and began their search. I had just bought a nice knife for work and had it on me. When the search was finished, he kept my knife, with a weak excuse that it was illegal when it certainly was not. Even if it had been, he should have given me a ticket for having it then. When I complained to the department about the incident, there was "no record of the incident in question." In other word, I must have been making the whole thing up.

Now we come to my most recent incident. I voluntarily disarmed myself when approached by two local officers, as I stood on my front porch, as a gesture of good faith. I wound up being kicked in the head and torso, and zapped ten times. That's what cooperation gets you in this town.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
There are some officers who will pat down just about every person they talk to....
...Pating down a bunch of kids just riding around in a car is not acceptable, even if you have a gut feeling that one of them probably has a dime-bad of bid stuck in their shorts.

It's just like any other power given to police officers. I remember when the Taser came out. It was supposed to be used as an alternative to using their firearm. Now it's used on people for not signing their traffic ticket.

Everytime I talk to someone I always ask them to keep their hands out of their pockets, that is enough for me and most officers in my area, if they are a suspect or known to carry a firearm then I ask to pat them down for officer safety. I also point the ICC in their direction so it is recorded in case it is brought into question. If they are suspect of holding something and they are underage I contact the parents before I do anything.

Now as to the taser and patting everyone down...unfortunately that is the academies fault nowadays, they teach them to pat everyone down, they are teaching the new use of force standards that state taser comes before physical force, mace, or baton. There is a reason 45% of academy graduates get fired in the first year.

Lt.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
There's one department not far from me that has been going through scandal for years, to the point that the Feds stepped in and made a list of recommendations, including enforcing the basic simple requirement that officers wear name tags. They still don't wear the tags, and that's just the start of it.

Our department just recently removed nametags from our uniform SOP, we just use PD numbers now.

Lt.

reply to post by The_Future_LT

Our department just recently removed nametags from our uniform SOP, we just use PD numbers now.

Militarization. If you aren't showing your name, you are no longer a member of and a servant to a community. You are now a numbered commodity controlled by and representing a new paradigm.

Star for your previous post BTW.


[edit on 4/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by jackinthebox

Militarization. If you aren't showing your name, you are no longer a member of and a servant to a community. You are now a numbered commodity controlled by and representing a new paradigm.

Star for your previous post BTW

Nametags are now optional, when I said our department just recently removed nametags from our uniform SOP, I should have clarified. Some officers(rookies) do not like people knowing their names. I have no problem with people knowing my name I make sure not to give them a reason to file a complaint.

reply to post by The_Future_LT

Some officers(rookies) do not like people knowing their names.

Tough. Just goes to show how shady this whole business is becoming. This should be no more optional than a civilian presenting their driver's license during a traffic stop.

At my last post I had to display my badge on my uniform. Not the shield mind you, but the actual photo ID badge.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
Militarization. If you aren't showing your name, you are no longer a member of and a servant to a community. You are now a numbered commodity controlled by and representing a new paradigm.

Most of the military has had names on their uniforms since the end of WW2. I think the Marines were the last holdouts, finally putting their names on their utilities in the 1990s.

reply to post by jerico65


Yes, I am aware of that actually. The point here is that one of the reasons nametags are not being worn by police officers, is that they have shifted over from a formal uniform, to a tactical one. Whereas a namtag was usually a pin attached to the formal uniform, they simply don't bother to apply a stitch tag to their new tactical look. It gets conveniently left out as a part of their uniform now. The next step will be that officers will be hiding their faces, like in some third world despot's cesspool.

EDIT to add:

In other words, out police are becoming more militant than our military, and pose a greater danger to liberty.



[edit on 4/17/0808 by jackinthebox]

I think it's paranoia setting in on some people. You have to realize that everything is tied in and woven together to make this country work. Alot of these police forces have families and friends. The same with the military and senators, congressman etc.. Why would you think they would just go nuts on anybody? If you're out there doing the crime then getting beat, shot with rubber bullets and tazed are what you're gonna get. I just don't think the government could give a command our military to hurt the people they fight for and love. Police forces are the same way. There are bad cops just like there are bad soldiers or bad civilians, but when it comes down to it the military and police will only try to keep the peace, fight drugs and crime and protect their country. I say don't give them a reason to mess with you and they won't. That's my opinion.

reply to post by Solarskye


The goal posts keep getting moved. It's the old frog in the pot on the stove scenario. Do you really think that members of the Gestapo weren't doing all the wrong things for all the right reasons? They didn't think they were bad people either.

reply to post by jackinthebox


I really hope you're wrong jack. I still feel that we the people can defend ourselves and not all police officers and military are gonna listen to the government and hurt there friends and families. All I can say is don't give up your guns and leave yourselves defenseless.

reply to post by Solarskye


The problem is that no one knows where to draw the line.

For example: The police see big bad drug dealers that they want to lock up. In reality, those drug dealers are supplied by our own corrupt government, and have no other means of earning a living wage.

As long as one is a part of that system, they will not be able to see outside of it.

Another example: The British cops being microchipped. I think most of us here would turn in our shields before submitting to something so Orwellian. But there are those who don't see a problem with it at all, and actually believe the propoganda that it's "for their safety."

There was also the argument in that went back and forth in this thread, about wether or not police/military members would act against civilians...

www.abovetopsecret.com...





[edit on 4/17/0808 by jackinthebox]

This may be an East Coast & Cali problem in this country because I've yet to see anything remotely like these pictures. I've only ever seen a state trooper (or any other cop) with a machine gun once in my life and it was a friend's dad who borrowed it from our National Guard armory in southern NM to bring out to the rifle range and each try our hand at firing it. I know they have the M16s, but seriously... never seen them carrying them like these pictures from NYC are showing. Same for the high concentrations of police. Aside from when there's an actual call (especially an officer under fire call for help) I've only ever seen large numbers of police concentrated in an area at Starbucks or at whatever local restaurant serves the best breakfast and has the bottomless coffee cups in whatever little NM or AZ town I have been in.

I now live in Western Washington out in the sticks, but I work everyday in Bellevue and even here the only time I really see police is when they sit in the median of I-90 to trap speeders and the periodic patroling cop that's just doing his or her job.

Oh, and the park rangers here? They drive SUV's with the words "PARK RANGER" clearly painted on the sides and tailgate alongside a National Park Service shield.