Big Pharma attacks vitamins + minerals

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
I think that if you check the original post, the comment read as follows: "Big Pharma is trying to put vitamin and mineral manufacturers out of business by getting their stooges in the FDA TO GET CONGRESS TO LEGISLATE THAT MANUFACTURING OF MINERALS AND SUPPLEMENTS have the same quality control as medical drugs.

That makes it a different discussion from banning all herbal supplements.

True, but it still has some repercussions. The FDA is far from being perfectly balanced and fair in its decisions. No present herbal supplier could compete with the money that a typical pharmaceutical company has and uses to provide countless tests and complete files of red tape (and I didn't even mention the scores of allegations to alleged bribes) required by the FDA. The result would be to put the herbal supplement companies out of business.

One could argue, I suppose, that a company which cannot compete should be allowed to close. I typically take that side in other situations. In this case, however, I believe the subjecting of herbal suppliers to regulation that has developed around (and possibly to the benefit of) their competition would be patently unfair.

TheRedneck

reply to post by eradown

Well then can you tell me what dosage adjustment of say, ginseng , in renal impairment? Or how calcium carbonate versus calcium citrate should be given in the same ocasion...
Or what is the age you can start giving Elderberry.... Or what is really absorbed in multivitamin preparation...
The companies should be those taking responsibility to provide this kind of information, not me digging around. If those question arise with regulated medication - there is regulated database that takes responsibility. In most natural products i have to call company representatives which are often not there, and it is common to receive answer after a couple of weeks. Sometimes no answers are available (in multivitamin example) so i can not provide correct information to people. Or provide an internet- dug one, without proper backing.
And, karma left aside, pharmaceutical companies main goal is to make money. But "natural" companies are there to do the same. So as long as they do not have to be responsible for their claims they actually do not have to provide anything but non-damaging product. So i take all the "blame" in case that it is just placebo by suggesting something natural which might not work and costs a lot instead of known drug which costs less but has a bunch of known side - effects.
For me it is a big issue. Karma and stuff.....

There is a certain logic which might be hard to see for a person not involved in health care: if a product is working, it means it interferes in current biological processes/homeostasis. For better but also in large doses/special cases - for worst. If it is totally safe- it just means that it does nothing to our body. I agree that our systems better handle what their are familiar with(vitamins/minerals) and not foreign substances, but it still does not mean that those are harmless in certain cases/applications.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge Well then can you tell me what dosage adjustment of say, ginseng , in renal impairment? Or how calcium carbonate versus calcium citrate should be given in the same ocasion...
Or what is the age you can start giving Elderberry.... Or what is really absorbed in multivitamin preparation...
... if those questions arise with regulated medication - there is regulated database that takes responsibility.

Indeed, I had a fair bit of difficulty trying to combine standard and complementary therapies for cancer treatment because nobody seemed to be able to answer my questions.

And further, I see this posted on Fox News:

FDA Warns 'Significant Hair Loss' Linked to Dietary Supplement: The distributor of "Total Body Formula" and "Total Body Mega Formula" has voluntarily recalled the dietary supplement products after 23 individuals suffered "serious reactions" within seven to 10 days of ingesting the liquid supplements, the FDA said in a news release. www.foxnews.com...

Beyond generating some slagging of Faux News out of general principal, I'd be interested in some response from those who say there is no need for the FDA to interfere with vitamins and supplements...

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Ah, a market I totally forgot.
The pseudo health market.

When I was into weight lifting some years ago I was big into supplements...when I started getting into the all natural diet I realized how much crap was in all that stuff.

Its products that you see at GNC that gives natural medicine (i.e., ephedra) a bad name.
Mixing herbs with only god knows what.

Heres the deal...natural or no...thats why people are confused.
You go in a health shop and expect the supplements to be safe.

Seeing that these supplements have more artificial flavorings, colorings, etc than you can shake a stick at...yeah, your right...they belong in the FDAs ground.

Forgot all about that 'other' so called health industry...

There is some crazy stuff in some of those weight lifting stuff (and Im talking about the legal stuff by known brands.)

But I stick to what I said in a previous post when it comes to true natural medicine.
(To lengthy to repeat here.)

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 30-3-2008 by dAlen]

Originally posted by dAlen
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Heres the deal...natural or no...thats why people are confused.
You go in a health shop and expect the supplements to be safe.

Seeing that these supplements have more artificial flavorings, colorings, etc than you can shake a stick at...yeah, your right...they belong in the FDAs ground.

Forgot all about that other 'health' industry...

There is some crazy stuff in some of those weight lifting stuff (and Im talking about the legal stuff by known brands.)
Peace

dAlen

[edit on 30-3-2008 by dAlen]

You're right there. MuscleTech is one brand to be on the lookout for. Some products live up their claims, while others are just poisonous junk. I was sent three books: "The GAKIC Miracle", "CREAKIC Muscle Receptor Hyperactivator", and "naNO X9". First off, I'll say GAKIC and CREAKIC do live up to their claims. Before taking that combination, I was worn out after doing deadlifts for 315lbsx6. Training this every week, and after the 3rd week on GAKIC and CREAKIC, I was able to do 315lbsx10, 335lbsx6, and then 315lbsx6, until I felt exhausted. The anti-ROS in CREAKIC, and anti-fatigue ingredients in GAKIC really does work. Let it be known that I was also supplementing with HMB (hydroxy methyl butyrate), Taurine and Glutamine, while taking Nutrabolic's Anabolic Window shake.

That brings me to MuscleTech garbage. I was sustaining some good gains with Nutrabolic Anabolic Window, but I read up on the ads with steroid heads like Branch Warren, Gustavo Badell, David Henry and Jeramy Freeman claiming to gain 50lbs of muscle in 42 days. So I stopped Nutrabolic and embarked on 2 containers of MuscleTech Anator P70. I started feeling a little more run down, gains were harder to maintain, and upset digestion. Whatever claims they make about actuating certain growth genes is false.. it may enhance the anabolic properties of steroids, but my testicles were not going along with the advertisements. I regretted wasting my money on that protein shake, and switched back to Nutrabolic Anabolic Window shake, and started feeling much better.

MuscleTech also makes Nano Vapour. This stuff is powerful. I went from struggling to bench 265lbsx6, and within a month was benching 315lbsx3.. I continued Nano Vapour for a month and a half and every week was consistantly benching at least two reps for 315lbs. I took a break for training, because in spite of how strong I felt, I knew I must be overtraining.. I starting to thin out and my weight stayed at 230lbs for over 4 weeks.. no weight gain and no strength gain, just getting the overtraining strains creeping up on me. So use this stuff sparingly, and don't rely too heavily on it.

Maybe I should mention MuscleTech Aplodan dormant muscle fiber activator. I works just as well, and maybe that's how my gains didn't fall so quickly in the last few weeks before I took some time off. You get an inrush of energy while you train that spurs you on to keep training hard. Beware though, when you run out of this stuff, the avalanche of overtraining symptoms does catch up with you.

I'm not attempting to feed the FDA reasons to start any new bans or policies, because these supplements (for the most part) to affect change in your muscle structure that you can keep. I've been off training for some time now, I moved, changed jobs, and right now unemployed, and I haven't suffered any sort of residual effects, my disgestion is ideal, I don't have hormonal imbalances. There's no reason to ban the stuff, because it doesn't do any damage, except with some people it may not live up to what the ads claim.

These are my experiences with supplements. When I start back training, I may again eventually purchase these products when my level of conditioning is ready for it.

Multi-vitamins? Supplements? I thought this forum was for people who seek the truth. If you people really did your research, you'd know that the majority of the vitamins and supplement crap out there is useless. Why?, because our body isn't made to utilize the nutrients in that way. Our body is made to best absorb nutrients from animal products, and in times of scarcity, plant foods. Why?, simple biology people, we suck at breaking down cellulose, to be honest though, I really don't wanna dwell too further into what we should be eating, I'll save that for another topic.

Who cares if the FDA bans vitamins and what not, we didn't need them years ago when we in the wilderness hunting animals and what not, why should we need them now? Daily recommended value? Oh don't get me started, the food pyramid? Thats brainwashing at its best. Like I said, do your research people. Find out what people were eating when the number one cause of death wasn't heart disease, only then will you see the truth.

Originally posted by WiseIsAwokenWhy?, because our body isn't made to utilize the nutrients in that way. Our body is made to best absorb nutrients from animal products, and in times of scarcity, plant foods. Why?, simple biology people, we suck at breaking down cellulose, to be honest though, I really don't wanna dwell too further into what we should be eating, I'll save that for another topic.

Sounds similar the the New Chapter way of thinking...

We believe Nature got it right the first time. That is, nourishment, protection and health that come from a whole food complex-- not from the synthetic vitamins, minerals and chemical herbal isolates you’ll find in most supplements. In fact, we hesitate to even categorize New Chapter products as food supplements. Rather, New Chapter is supplemental food, because it is food.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by WiseIsAwoken
Multi-vitamins? Supplements? I thought this forum was for people who seek the truth. If you people really did your research, you'd know that the majority of the vitamins and supplement crap out there is useless. Why?, because our body isn't made to utilize the nutrients in that way. Our body is made to best absorb nutrients from animal products, and in times of scarcity, plant foods. Why?, simple biology people, we suck at breaking down cellulose, to be honest though, I really don't wanna dwell too further into what we should be eating, I'll save that for another topic.

Who cares if the FDA bans vitamins and what not, we didn't need them years ago when we in the wilderness hunting animals and what not, why should we need them now? Daily recommended value? Oh don't get me started, the food pyramid? Thats brainwashing at its best. Like I said, do your research people. Find out what people were eating when the number one cause of death wasn't heart disease, only then will you see the truth.

Well, I have enough training experience so that my body can make good use of these hormone-free products. Just taking supplements without hard weight training will do nothing. Unless you've built strength and muscle through consistant training over the period of a few years, you're nobody who should judge its effectiveness.

Originally posted by Kinesis

Originally posted by WiseIsAwoken
Multi-vitamins? Supplements? I thought this forum was for people who seek the truth. If you people really did your research, you'd know that the majority of the vitamins and supplement crap out there is useless. Why?, because our body isn't made to utilize the nutrients in that way. Our body is made to best absorb nutrients from animal products, and in times of scarcity, plant foods. Why?, simple biology people, we suck at breaking down cellulose, to be honest though, I really don't wanna dwell too further into what we should be eating, I'll save that for another topic.

Who cares if the FDA bans vitamins and what not, we didn't need them years ago when we in the wilderness hunting animals and what not, why should we need them now? Daily recommended value? Oh don't get me started, the food pyramid? Thats brainwashing at its best. Like I said, do your research people. Find out what people were eating when the number one cause of death wasn't heart disease, only then will you see the truth.

Well, I have enough training experience so that my body can make good use of these hormone-free products. Just taking supplements without hard weight training will do nothing. Unless you've built strength and muscle through consistant training over the period of a few years, you're nobody who should judge its effectiveness.

Not 100% sure what point you're trying to make, but I never said all supplements were useless, I've taken advantage of creatine for years myself. I do agree with you in saying that taking supplements doesn't guarantee you muscular gain, however, my point was that if people were eating what we were designed to best utilize, most supplements would be pointless.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by WiseIsAwoken]

[edit on 30-3-2008 by WiseIsAwoken]

Originally posted by WiseIsAwoken
Not 100% sure what point you're trying to make, but I never said all supplements were useless, I've taken advantage of creatine for years myself. I do agree with you in saying that taking supplements doesn't guarantee you muscular gain, however, my point was that if people were eating what we were designed to eat, supplements would indeed be supplements, not the meal substitutes they're used as today.

To be honest, it's hard to tell who I'm writing to. Some will say I'm brainwashed for trying different products, and then keeping track of my training progress and results before, during, and after these changes.

If someone is obese, has a heart condition, or contraindications with other medications, then they're not 100% healthy individuals. The more energy you burn, the greater your appetite. For some people, it's the more bored you are, and the longer you watch TV, the greater your appetite. There's nothing I can say to people who don't exercise.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Not only can I not tell you what is the right dosage of medicinal herbs which will help you ,but the doctors also can not help you with the right dosage. Doctors do not study nutrition or medicinal herbs. Even if they did study mecinal herbs they are not specialized enough to say which ones will help you based on your DNA. Go to a doctor for petty aches and pains associated with being you and you will be shown the door. They are only trained to help you with very specific problems. With all the intense training they go through it is not fair to expect them to also become herbal experts.

You are the ultimate authority on your body. Occasionally a herb will be working ( I will not say which herbs I use or why I use them. The pharmaceutical compaines are greedy price gougers and they can do their own research), and I will notice it just stops working. I will switch brands and find that the competitors herbs are working just fine. Yes ,I have wasted money on herbs that did not work. Herbal companies occasionally get a bad crop of herbs. Maybe the suppliers of the herbal companies occassionally buy herbs from farmers that have really bad soil. The point I am making is just because it is impossible to standardize a natural product does not mean that natural products should be shunned. Far from it, the things which God produced are better for your body than man made substances. It is up to you and not up to the doctor or big nanny government to figure out what keeps your biomachine finely tuned. If you depend on an outsider to take care of you, they may take care of you in a way you would not like.

reply to post by eradown


But this is my point. I am not a doctor, i am pharmacist. I also did not receive a proper information concerning these things in university .Still, when i worked in a drugstore almost everyday i had to give answers/solve these things and the industry itself does not want to do it. That is why regulation is needed. People are aware that when they take drug - they take a low dose of potential poison with certain possible complications. This is the same (mostly to lesser extent) with herbs,vitamins,minerals -but it is not controlled by anyone. And just as you can not supply this information, i can not always do it because no one checked it and no one stands behind it.
For every experiment saying X is good there is at least one saying X is bad and vice versa. So company pushing its product naturally states only pros, and i have to figure out what to trust more, because those guys are only "pointing" to that experiment, never standing behind its results.
This is why i stand for the regulation (doses/side effects/counteractions/contradictions/warnings will be really nice,not to mention when and by whom to use/not use).
About efficiency and ATSity of the subject:
From my experience vitamin deficiency exists.(b12 for example, b6) Mineral deficiency exists (Iron for example,zinc,calcium). And some supplements can fix it,some can't while claiming to contain the same, and it drives me nuts. Not to mention that there are working plants - from personal experience. And not working ones...
And i do not mention homeopathy....

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge And i do not mention homeopathy....

Funny thing is, from time to time I go through some grief with my eyes and the only two things that bring relief are a massage of the lymph glands in the upper arm (temporary) and a homeopathic preparation of euphasia (cures the episode).

This is after a history of antibiotics and cortizoid drugs doing zilch.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


I am not saying that homeopathic preparations do not work - i met several (few and not individualized,as it should be) products that work better then anything else (drugs or plants) but it is not explained at all!!! I treat it as "black box" medicine - do not know how/why it works. Just one of the principles, "more diluted - stronger" goes against everything i learned.
I brought it to show that there are things that need to be clarified.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

In order to OD on the herbals I take you would need to eat bottle fulls of the stuff. It is all fine and good to say I should eat the natural fresh unprocessed stuff but that is inconvenient. Some herbs are not indigenous to my area and some are seasonal. Of course if the egotists responsible for this tyrranny get their way rest assured I will learn how to store herbs like the ancient witch doctors did , bet it would not be to long before big pharma tried to put a cobosh on private herb stockpiles and gardens.This is not motivated by concern for the overall health of the public. This is motivated by pure greed. People should be allowed to do what is necessary to take care of their own bodies and no one should be allowed to take that right away.

reply to post by eradown

Well greed might be there,but problems are there for sure. Once again, i would rather the industry to monitor itself,not by FDA. Even if it was an unbiased organization without foreign interests it is too bureaucratic and it takes forever ( some times over a decade) to get something approved.
I doubt that whatever the final result will be, it will somehow effect private growers of legal stuff.
So i guess we agree not to agree, which is fine.
If you'd like ,check this stuff. It can show how little is known about dosages of most-used legal (then,before Hypericum/Kava-Kava issue) herbs in US. Note - only pdf version is free, so to check it you have to open/download the file. And info is a little old, lot of contradictory researches appeared. Dosages are not cleared yet (for those that stayed available as supplements.).
www.annals.org...
BTW,storing plants for long is very problematic. Extracts can hold for longer, but also relatively short time. Dark dry environment helps.

evil USA government is neither reliable or trustworthy;whatever they try to regulate it ends up as a disaster and/or corruption ;people especially in states need to be self reliable and self knowledged to not get ripped off ,mislead etc.
there is no other country in the world that has so large percentage of dumb brainwashed dontcare people (must be the fluoride in the tap water) who will fight for the government despite it is killing them with msg aspartame amalgam filings,drugs in the water, spraying the skyes etc;. government is the expression of the majority of the nation either we like it or not ,most of the people here wants to feel safe so they will be happy to see vitamins forbidden just to feel safe...

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


speaking of homeopathic,ridgecrest herbals, is the only company to produce a natural migraine medicine for me...(which I have tried) and worked.

Its a combo of homeopathic and chinese herbal.
Now Im not saying either way about this company, except back when I used to get migraines quite frequently, the medicine worked quite well for me. (Typically I would have to down min. 3 advil to get any relief.)

note: I am not giving medical advice...blah blah, disclaimer.
Seriously I dont know much about this company and their effects of their products on others...the one product worked for me without any issues...but buyer beware. (Do your own homework.)

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 31-3-2008 by dAlen]

If the people of USA do not rise up and fight against this regulation of herbs and minerals as they did, succesfully, in NZ, then it will come to pass.

In NZ every person sent out protest emails to every other person untill the government was swamped in protests. It can be done if you are committed.

Here are some articles:

www.greens.org.nz...

www.nzherald.co.nz...

I don't think the fight is done and dusted but the people of NZ did not want this legislation and anyone who attempts to go against the voice of the people will be ousted at the next election.

There is big corupt drug company money behind this push. Unfortunately Australia has succumbed to their greedy evil wishes for regulation.