Did Jesus exist?

I have been brought up Catholic. Vatican II pretty much wrecked the way I felt about being Catholic.
As I read and lived and learned, I came to think that many things in the bible were stories meant to teach. Not "the word of God".

Recently, I have read that Jesus did not even exist. There is no civil reporting of the facts of his life and death. One would think someone who was stirring the masses as he allegedly did would have come to the attention of ancient historians.
It was brought to my attention that the trinity aspect of Christianty, and indeed many other religions, is taken from the Babylonian religion. This in no way makes me think there is no God.
But it makes me think that religions were created to give "the masses" something to do, to keep them in line. And the little details that make each religion unique were altered to fit the region and people who lived there.
Wasn't it Karl Marx who said
"Religion is the opiate of the people"?

I was always under the impression that Jesus did actually exist, but I could be wrong.

Could you perhaps put up a few links to what you're talking about with the Vatican II stuff?

I regrettably haven't ever heard of it...I feel so silly now..

At any rate...
You know my opinion on it, but of course I'm very open-minded, so feel free to elaborate. Thanks.

Whether Jesus did or did not exist isn't really the big question for me. I would wonder more how the story of his supposed existence has warped and mythisized (not a real word, I know) over time. All things get build up when the fable is told over and over again. Jesus is just another of these things.

Actuall, Loki, I am so new here, and the amount of info is so staggering, I am NOT aware of your opinions on it.

Vatican Council II was meant to bring the Catholic religion closer to the people. It took effect during the early 60s. Being at an impressionalbe age, just entering my teen years, these changs did not sit well. Changing from Latin to English. Changing a lot of the everyday things that went with practicing your faith.
It was too much change for me and a lot of others of my age. And then 11-22-1963, the Assassination happened. I think a whole generation of Catholics went throught this sense of loss because of these two events.
What was meant to bring this religion closer to its members was too much change to young minds. IMHO!

It is true, that there seems to be little documentation, other than the Bible, Torah, and the Koran... However, it's enough for me to think that there was a man named Jesus (or more properly, called Jesus) and that many of his "miracles" are highly exaggerated....

There seems to be little doubt that religion was, and is, created as a tool of control, first and foremost....

Originally posted by Gazrok
It is true, that there seems to be little documentation, other than the Bible, Torah, and the Koran...
There seems to be little doubt that religion was, and is, created as a tool of control, first and foremost....

Aaah, but what if those 3 books were all written to control mankind?? All that documentation would just be corroborated each other, rendering them useless for independent proof.
If someone has bona fide independent (not religious) proof of Jesus' existence, I'd sure be interested in seeing it.
This goes way beyond living on faith, IMHO!

Theres some good reading on this subject at www.jovialatheist.com...

I think this has been posted on ATS before, but Im not sure.

Youre right though, it would seem that if the stories of the things he did are true, then there would have been quite a stink made about it in the history books. Historians of the time wrote about all sorts of other things that were going on around the same time period, but none mention this jesus fellow.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Aaah, but what if those 3 books were all written to control mankind??

So could you tell us who got together, and wrote three separate, different language, and different Messiahs, written at different times 2 to 3 thousand years ago...so they could control mankind...

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Vatican Council II was meant to bring the Catholic religion closer to the people. It took effect during the early 60s. Being at an impressionalbe age, just entering my teen years, these changs did not sit well. Changing from Latin to English. Changing a lot of the everyday things that went with practicing your faith.

I too believe that Vatican II did more harm than good. The Latin Mass was uplifting and gave a sense of mystery to the religion. I find Latin to be a beautiful language, especially when sung in its plainchant form. Some people complained that the congregation couldn't understand the Latin Mass, but there was nothing stopping them from learning the language - or getting an english translation.

Yeah I beleve Jesus did exist

The romans did actualy have documentation on him and had records of his actions (As he was very disruptive in their eyes)

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JESUS EXSISTED

The Koran is a direct interpretation of the Torah in the eyes of " Prophet " Muhhamed. Jesus us reffered to as " ESA ". To use this as ligitimate proof is devoid of any historical evidence.

Crash, I would also like too see these Roman " proofs ".

Deep

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
I have been brought up Catholic. Vatican II pretty much wrecked the way I felt about being Catholic.

As I read and lived and learned, I came to think that many things in the bible were stories meant to teach. Not "the word of God".

Recently, I have read that Jesus did not even exist. There is no civil reporting of the facts of his life and death. One would think someone who was stirring the masses as he allegedly did would have come to the attention of ancient historians.
It was brought to my attention that the trinity aspect of Christianty, and indeed many other religions, is taken from the Babylonian religion. This in no way makes me think there is no God.
But it makes me think that religions were created to give "the masses" something to do, to keep them in line. And the little details that make each religion unique were altered to fit the region and people who lived there.
Wasn't it Karl Marx who said
"Religion is the opiate of the people"?

What are you jewish? Ofcourse Jesus Christ is real. I know that for a fact (that's why i think the devil want's me dead), and all the teachings in the Bible are God's words. In the New Testimnet they are Jesus'es words, and Jesus is God.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
The Koran is a direct interpretation of the Torah in the eyes of " Prophet " Muhhamed. Jesus us reffered to as " ESA ". To use this as ligitimate proof is devoid of any historical evidence.
Deep

But, what if the Koran was written by the followers of the same group who wrote the Bible and Torah??? I don't find the Koran historical evidence.

Originally posted by ZeroDeepCrash, I would also like too see these Roman " proofs ".

Me, too!!!
You'd think there'd be references to it all over the 'net if these civil records existed, IMO.

Originally posted by AD5673
What are you jewish? Ofcourse Jesus Christ is real. I know that for a fact (that's why i think the devil want's me dead), and all the teachings in the Bible are God's words. In the New Testimnet they are Jesus'es words, and Jesus is God.

Jews believe Jesus existed. He just wasn't the Promised One.

No, I am a person who thinks religions were created to keep us from being in tune with nature and the universe. And, thereby taking away our natural powers.

I agree with DontTreadOnMe.
I believe we all have natural abilities, most if not all of which are
just unknown to us.
our society needs us (the common man) to be weak to thrive.
technology is ever evolving with more efficient ways to control
the masses of ignorant people.

Quote: "Jesus is referred to as " ESA "

You mean Issa. What is wrong with Babylonian Religion? Without the Kabalah the REAL secrets of the Torah are IMPOSSIBLE to Unlock!!!

I believe Jesus existed but not that he was the literal 'son of God' I think that has been misinterpreted and that he reffered to himself this way as in we are all 'sons/children of God'. He was a deeply spiritual man with a message for mankind and he may have had paranatural abilities, examples of which are reported from individuals today. I believe he would be amused/alarmed/disgusted at some of the things that have been done in his name though. His basic teachings I agree with.

Originally posted by ubermunche
I believe Jesus existed but not that he was the literal 'son of God' I think that has been misinterpreted and that he reffered to himself this way as in we are all 'sons/children of God'. He was a deeply spiritual man with a message for mankind and he may have had paranatural abilities, examples of which are reported from individuals today. I believe he would be amused/alarmed/disgusted at some of the things that have been done in his name though. His basic teachings I agree with.

YES! I think that too, and I also think that the roman empire used this guys to control masses and brainwashed everybody and the bible as it is, is not really exactly what happened. The roman empire is "the elite" with blue blood and they just knew that jesus was a guy from the light, so they had to kill him and they profited from that...
Jesus, he was a soul from an higher plane who incarnated on earth to teach humans that unconditional love is the answer for everything and that we should not fear death, we are all bro and sis...THATS IT! They (elite) made a big deal of it, rewrite it, changed it, modified it so that humans would be afraid of hell and sins and all that kind of stuff... a religion very powerful.. Now, the soul of jesus must really think (knows) that we did not get a word of what he teached us. WE got manipulated by "them" the vatican, the pope and go back to Cesar...are we still THAT ignorant to think that the bible is exactly the words of "god"...
WE are all sons and daughter of god, that energie, the source of everthing...the light source is god and our soul come from that, the body is just a shell to live in the earth 3D.
Jesus was one soul, too...like any other soul, so we should love evreybody equal because we come from the same place and we go back to that same place after...that is what jesus told us...Catholic religion is not even jesus's religion, it's the roman religion...be yourself, trust yourself

Unconditionnal love
Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Aaah, but what if those 3 books were all written to control mankind?? All that documentation would just be corroborated each other, rendering them useless for independent proof.
If someone has bona fide independent (not religious) proof of Jesus' existence, I'd sure be interested in seeing it.

Now THATs quite a leap of faith, hehe... While all 3 were likely written for control purposes, I'm sure they were simply alluding to the same real events and people, just from different perspectives. Such a conspiracy would indeed be the grandpappy of all conspiracy theories, but given the difference in language, geography (isn't like they could get around fast), ideas, and just plain decades, I seriously doubt such a conspiracy took place.

As for permanent records, we are talking about over 2000 years ago, but yes, I do believe there are some Roman records pertaining to the trial from Pontius Pilot's historians....though you must remember "Jesus" was more a title, not his actual name, according to most scholars...

While I think he existed, I do not think he was the son of any God...and that as some mentioned, things got distorted over time.