Germany Warns China Olympics at Risk (Update: France Considering Boycott)

reply to post by IchiNiSan


Your account, Ichi, has left a great impression on me. First of all in the civil manner you are able to argue, and that in an inviroment at times more than hostile towards the issue, but also after fuelcell has come in with his information about the accessibility of the net in China, I must give you credibility for what you say.

Now there's no reason for me to believe you to be a government agent, but from your account I can see you are priviliged, going to a (probably expensive) European University, that's lucky for you and I wish you the best in your studies. I must give you kudos, not only for the decorum you show in your posting, but also for your language abilities. It has really impressed me.

All in all you have forced me to look upon the topic of boycott in a new light, to re-estimate the pros and contras. First let me say my personal opinion is, and will always be, that the Tibetan people has the right to independence, in the same way as the Irish had it from the British, and also that I am appalled by inviromental issues as wel as the human rights record of your country.

Nonetheless I have arrived at the conclusion, for the sake of the Tibetans as for human rights in general, and certainly most important, for the sake of a future peaceful world, that it is best the games proceed as planned. On the condition that CCP entirely lives up to the promises given to IOC concerning the freedom of the international press to report as they see fit and the athelets to express themselves the way they want within normal decency of course. I think in the long run it will serve everybody's interests best, Tibetans, ordinary Chinese people and the world community.

I am aware powerful and sinister forces on both sides are at play here, and both are to gain from putting the Tibet conflict in the worst possible light, so in fact supporting boycott, is supporting those dark forces, whose end goal is suppression and control and all in the name of their own greed.

I don't think the Olympic itself, as competition sport in general is any good idea, but I do think it's a good idea for nationalities to come together, experience eachother's culture and join in activities of play. But unfortunately the Olympic motto of "not to win, but to participate" (or something like that) is more or less void today. Sadly also for CCP, but I hope the wisdom of a millenium old culture is not forgotten and shall prevail in the end.

Thank you for your appreciation and respect, these kinds of reactions is exactly the reason why I would spend my free time on coming to these kinds of forums. And reminds me why ATS with her Denying Ignorance philosophy is a place why it attracted me to come to discuss topics which are dear to me. It always sound so simple, but it is always so hard to achieve it "deny ignorance". It is even harder for someone so determined to fight for a cause to start reconsidering if that is the best to achieve the final goals or not. You have my respects.

Needly to say it's a pity though that in ATS we see more and more mistrust, especially labelling someone of being a paid agent is getting ridiculous. In other threads I have invited all anti-China "crusaders" to come to China and to check out my claims. I'm glad someone with a certain degree of credibility can verify my claims.

Anyhow, regarding your opinions towards Tibet and Chinese policies, well, what can I say what I have not already said. Nobody is perfect, isn't it? On a serious note, my motto and what I want to say to you, never say "never or always". So I'm quite sure that one day most of the people will understand why for the Tibetans it is for their best interests to stay in China.

As for the pollution issues, this is certainly a very important issue for me. And we really have to work hard and make the people very conscience about the environment. Only with a healthy environment we can maintain a sustainable long-term development. Did you know that China banned free plastic bags at shops and supermarkets beginning this year? The new law was enforced in a hard way and thousands of small manufacturers producing plastic bags went bankrupt. I believe this is a small trade-off for reducing waste and making the people aware of the importance of environmental issues. So is China working on a lot of other stuff to reduce pollution, unfortunately not all centrally planned policies are always enforced at the regional level. This is often because of the despicable corruption at the province levels. So we should introduce performance matrices and accountability of the money injected for certain environmental programs.

But unfortunately the Olympic motto of "not to win, but to participate" (or something like that) is more or less void today. Sadly also for CCP, but I hope the wisdom of a millenium old culture is not forgotten and shall prevail in the end.

Yes I agree that people tend to attach the importance (power) of a country to the amount of golden medals achieved by her atheletes. Winning in sport is so overrated in my opinion, it is making the whole event losing some of its spirit. However not all is lost, the Olympic spirit should be and is still about bringing people together in an open and friendly way. A podium for different cultures to friendly clash, a podium for different people to understand each other more. Hopefully free unrestricted access to foreign reporters will not be abused and will be used for many reporting of the 5 millennia old Chinese culture.


Ps. A slight correction: I am a NBC, Netherland Born Chinese (Hong Kong), who lived in a very multi-cultural place. Have grown up with Dutch/Turks/Morrocs/Surinams etc and finished my master degree in economics many years ago. Started working in Europe, and because of my job I have visitted all European countries, Russia, Turkey, some Middle Eastern and North African countries, Taiwan and the States (even travelled through it with a rental). This is next to my holidays in Japan, Thailand and the like. Still in my very late twenties and only less than two years ago I came back to Shenzhen to continue my career.

reply to post by khunmoon


I agree with you. Now I'm not so sure a boycott would be the best idea.

Is China really going to change though? Are they going to treat their citizens better? They are after all an authoritarian government. Its not like the US government is going to give up any of their power. I don't see the Chinese doing so either.

President Bush must skip Chinese Olympics

I think we could make a bigger statement to the Chinese if we sent our athletes, but not the politicians.

We would support the Chinese' right to hold the olympics. We still wouldn't agree with their treatment of the Tibetans (or rural chinese in general). I think that may send a strong, clear message to President Hu.

And I hope the Chinese would boycott the next US olympics to return the favor.

Both countries need a new government.

No starker episode exhibits our anile need for a moral hospice before we slither into the dust bin of history than the one playing out before Americans’ astonished eyes. Legacy building with the urgency of a dying Pharaoh staring at an unfinished Sphinx, George Walker Bush is bent upon being the first U.S. President to attend a foreign nation’s Olympics. The nation in question is communist China, the shock troops of which are presently bludgeoning Tibetan Monks as if they were orange bathrobed baby seals. (One shudders at the prospect this Tibetan repression is the Chi-coms’ sedulous sally into Olympic demonstration sports.)

While I may not agree with the baby seal analogy, I'd have to agree with pretty much everything else. Bush wants to be the 1st President to attend the olympics.

He wants a legacy, however negative that may be. He wants to be remembered, and (Liberty University?) he will soon have his Presidential library.

This part of his article strikes me as the most significant, a list of grievances:

If such an appeal to history’s verdict proves fruitless, we could remind our Commander-in-Chief communist China is:

Arming our enemies;
Engaging in espionage against us, including the use of cyber warfare;
Subjugating Tibet;
Abetting genocide in the Sudan;
Compelling a “One Child Policy” and forcing abortions amongst its people;
Committing predatory trade practices against us;
Denying their people’s God-given human rights;
Subverting sovereign democracies;
Supporting their fellow dictatorships; and, generally,
Being an unsporting bastion of tyranny.

The Sudan genocide alone is enough reason to cripple the Chinese war machine. That's more reason for war than Iraq's WMDs...

reply to post by IchiNiSan


Just as you do not want to be labeled an agent of your government here at AtS I don't think you should refer to anyone as being an "anti-china crusader". The Olympic games are not about one country, they are about all countries coming together in an agreement as the Olympic Charter states.."The goal of Olympism is to place sport at service of harmonious development of man, with a view at promoting a peaceful society concerned with the preservation of human dignity."

The human dignity of Tibetans has been ignored by the PRC for a very long time now. I do not think that most countries will boycott the Olympics but I do see a world finally being educated on this matter of Tibet being occupied by a regime that by all accounts uses systematic genocide to finally end the matter of Tibetan independance. www.tibetjustice.org...

China has already fallen short of it's promises to the IOC in order to gain the right to host the Olympics, it reminds me of the Seventeen Point agreement that China fell short of honoring. hrw.org...

If being an advocate for the humane and just treament of Tibetans some how makes me anti-chinese in your mind I am sorry for that.

Prime Minister Brown not attending Opening events

Prime Minister Gordon Brown will not attend the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics, Downing Street says.

However, he will be at the closing ceremony when the Olympic baton will be passed to London.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Downing Street said "he always planned not to attend" but Brown said, during a conference with the French President;

"We will not be boycotting the Olympic Games; Britain will be attending the Olympic Games ceremonies.

So, he is boycotting then or does he not want to damage Chinese investment in London

[edit on 9-4-2008 by infinite]

Unmasked: Chinese guardians of Olympic torch

I guess Lord Coe was right about the "brutes."

This is from the Lord Coe article:

Perhaps it was not the fact that the Chinese flame-protectors were security-service men that rattled commentators and activists, but rather their allegedly strange, inscrutable, aloof and, well, typically Chinese behaviour. British Olympics official Lord Sebastian Coe was overheard describing them as ‘horrible’. ‘They did not speak English. They were thugs’, he spat. Former Blue Peter presenter Konnie Huq described them as ‘very robotic’. She was echoed by the head of the French Olympics Committee when the torch arrived in Paris; he, too, described the Chinese minders as ‘robots’

And this is from the original article up top:

The guards protecting the Olympic flame had paramilitary training and were chosen by Beijing for their toughness and fitness.

China’s blue-clad flame attendants, whose aggressive methods of safeguarding the Olympic torch have provoked international outcry, are paramilitary police from a force spun off from the country’s army.

The squad of 30 young men from the police academy that turns out the cream of the paramilitary security force has the job at home of ensuring riot control, domestic stability and the protection of diplomats.

The Chinese sent their riot police to protect the Olympic torch relay. They must be pretty serious about these games.

The guards’ task for the torch relay is to ensure the flame is never extinguished – although it was put out three times in Paris – and now increasingly to prevent protesters demonstrating against Chinese rule in Tibet from interfering with it.

Oops too late, looks like somebody is going to get the chair when they return home to China.

Bad bad cops.

But the aggression with which the guards have been pursuing their brief has provoked anger, not least in London where they were seen wrestling protesters to the ground and were described as “thugs” by Lord Coe.

See above.

Any country that boycotts the games must realize that there will be real world consequences for them. The Chinese gov't. is using these games as a showcase for their arrival on the world scene...

It's all very well and good for us, as nonpolicy makers, to prattle on about boycotts. We aren't the ones that'll be expected to deal with those consequences by the squealing masses. I can understand a certain amount of reluctance to open that can of worms.

I support the notion of a boycott, but I understand that there will be consequences of them.

reply to post by seagull


Of course, China will end up using its economic power on those who boycott the events. That explains why Gordon Brown does not want to call his decision not to attend a "boycott".

reply to post by Witness2008


Witness, my apologies if you feel being offended for me calling you a crusader. You for one is the few persons I believe who is sincerely fighting for your cause, instead of simply jumping on the bandwagon because it became fashionable. I mostly can say you are an idealist, in my opinion (like you know for some time) not realistic, yet it is respectable and fine for me. Though I would really advise again to start bringing up more neutral and objective reports.

Now fashionable is a key-word you once used, the Tibet issue is now being abused (some people would rather see me using only "use) as a political weapon. A political weapon of governments really fighting for human rights? I doubt so, what I see is that because of the Olympics and the eagerness of the Chinese leaders to make it succesful this became a leverage to many politicians and influences. Western media is feeding the common public, and as usual this very public and over majority will not dig into the issue and simply go along with the fashionable direction.

Let's brainstorm of what is to be expected in the coming months.

- Torch relay will start in more neutral grounds with much less protests, you will start to hear less and less about the Torch relay, untill it arrives in New Delhi and then another media break untill it arrives in Canberra.
- When the Torch arrives in China ground you will practically not hear any news anymore about the torch untill the broadcasting channels need to start making advertisements to attract viewers to watch the Olympics.
- Meanwhile (mainly Western) politicians all over the world will weight the importance of keeping a good relation with China and keeping his voters happy. Most likely publicly blabla-ing about that China should respect human rights and the like, and in the meanwhile keep on inviting the Chinese Embassador to his parties and requesting his/her Embassadors in Beijing to cement the relations.
- Overall we won't expect a blown-out country-level boycott, only some individuals (politicians and athletes).
- The fun will start when we are close to the Olympics. Broadcasting channels have to start to weight what is more important, keep on the bias China bashing or start to make advertisements to attract the viewers to watch the Olympics to collect advertisment money.
- Most likely the latter will win, and then you will start to see these broadcasting channels start to neutralize their standpoints by broadcasting new documentaries, or making reportages of the other side of the stories and Chinese economic development in some areas, hopefully some will report the lesser developed areas as well to show why China need a rapid economic development. However meanwhile also keep on emphasizing of the human rights , pollutions, etc. However, the strategy is flexible and will depend very much on the overall public sentiments.
- During the Olympics the Media will see fit how the general general sentiments are towards China. Focus a lot on the security (to give people an impression that China is a police state), focus a lot on the economic development, focus on each and single small/big incidents of protests, and so on.
- After the Olympics? Well, at most a wrapping up of welcoming the honourable atheletes when they come back and then? Well for the States back to focussing on the upcoming presidential elections and Europe back to the usual mess at home.
- You will see people to loose focus, you will hear less and less about the Tibet issue, and eventually you might only see here and there a new report about human rights issues, but any China-related reports will be most likely about the businesses, economics and another batch of recalls of Chinese products.
- I do hope that in between now till after the Olympics China and the Dalai Lama will find some grounds to start an open dialogue and start to work on a feasible solution to this Tibet controversy.

Confusion strikes US torch relay

This torch relay thing is developing into a farce. On Wednesday the torch was taken on a surprise route through San Francisco.

Here's BBC's report.

The only North American leg of the Olympic torch relay has been marked by confusion after the route was diverted to avoid crowds of protesters.

Thousands of pro-Tibet and pro-Beijing demonstrators had gathered in San Francisco, prompting fears of violence.

Officials sent the torch on a new route citing safety concerns. The closing ceremony was also moved to a new site.

When security becomes secrecy, what's the point of a relay then?

In San Francisco, a planned waterfront closing ceremony in Justin Herman Plaza was moved because of security fears.

San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom told Reuters news agency: "We assessed the situation and felt that we could not secure the torch and protect the protesters and supporters to the degree that we wished."

Instead, a muted closing event took place on a motorway fly-over well away from the planned location, says the BBC's David Willis in San Francisco.

To me it more and more all in all seems like a disgrace to the Olympic idea.

It shall be interesting to see what decisions the IOC meeting in Beijing will arrive at on Thursday. I bet the Chinese will object with full force to any cancelation of further legs of the relay.

Insanety more than any resonable activism has grapped the whole thing.

reply to post by khunmoon


I agree that insanity seems to have hijacked the olympic spirit. I can only speak for myself in that the treatment by the PRC and the cold shoulder that Tibet has recieved from the world for all these years has birthed a desperation in me. I have been a supporter of a free Tibet for many years, paying close attention to the dim amount of light the international community shines on Tibet and then of course the human rights violations Tibetans must endure, and over the years I have felt the insanity of apathy.

I see the olympics as an opportunity for Tibetan voices to finally be heard. The many threads here at ATS are full of information and my hopes are that these threads provoke substantial debate and insight. Was china awarded the games in order that the curtains could be pulled back? I see a large population of the world finally putting human rights above commerce and politics. I see hope and possibility.

Some balance, and hopefully something to make people think.

I wonder what the scenario will be if a future Olympics is awarded to a US city?

Given the track record of the Bush Administration, with its human rights abuses and illegal renditions to Gitmo, and the Iraq debacle, will the US be seen in the same light as the Chinese authorities are now?

Will we be seeing the same harsh condemnation?

Will Britiain suffer because of its part in the Iraq invasion when the Olympics are here in 2012? Will we see boycotts from Muslim nations?

And...since when has it become the ATS way to condemn someone as a "propaganda agent" just because they have their own unique geographical viewpoint of the world from within their countries borders? Using that example, how many other nations "propaganda agents" are on this thread?

Different people, in different parts of the world, view things differently. You may not like that, but thats most certainly the way it is. ATS is an international board read by people all over the world. On ATS we EXPECT civility, and decorum at all times and most certainly do NOT tolerate ad hominem attacks on people just because they see things differently.

Discuss, educate, DENY IGNORANCE. Talk about the post and not the poster.

Matt Frei: China's crisis

It is not to invite further China bashing I bring this snippet, but to put focus on a trait very Chinese, humiliation or rather the fear of falling victim to it. Same time it is one of the most used disciplinary tools by the Chinese themselves.

I travelled through China as a student in 1984 when the country was largely closed to outsiders. I stayed in Taerse, a stunning Tibetan monastery on the edge of the Tibetan plateau.

This home to hundreds of Tibetan monks had been saved by Zhou Enlai during the Cultural Revolution, as the Chinese mobs prepared to level it to the ground. He felt it was simply too beautiful to be left to the mercies of those wielding the axe in one hand and the Little Red Book in the other.

One day, bus loads of Chinese tourists in Mao uniforms arrived. They lined the dirt road to the monastery and laughed openly at the monks and pilgrims who were approaching on their knees as custom dictates. Some shouted abuse. Some even spat. I asked them why they had done that. "Look," a woman with thick, black-rimmed spectacles wearing a blue Mao suit told me. "They are like cave people."

It's not an uncommon attitude in East Asia, it's found in Thailand too, towards tribal people, considered 'backward' and 'dirty'.

BTW, the same tribes, Akha, Meo, etc. found in the North of Thailand are found in Yunnan, and are said to have much better conditions and basic human rights contrary to Thailand, where they are treated worse than dogs and even denied citizenship.

What makes some people treat other human beings like that? Superiority, declared or perceived, is what I get it as.

Whatever, its a condition that goes very bad with the Olympic spirit.

This blog of Matt Frei, is focused around that evening in 2001 when it was announced Beijing was officialy oppointed, and he describes the eufouri and joy among people and how they celebrated on Chang An. After some time, this happened.

I end back on that clammy night in Beijing.

Amid the euphoria and the crowds, we began to notice armoured vehicles on Chang An. It was the first time since the violent suppression of protests in Tiananmen Square in 1989 that the military had been deployed on the streets of the capital.

The Chinese do not like large gatherings of crowds, even patriotic ones, if they display too much emotion. Events could go off-script. That was the mistake of 1989.

The men and women living in the modern Forbidden City, Zhongnanhai, the heavily guarded home of the party elite, simply do not trust their own people.

This may not be a sound basis on which to host a sporting event that is by its very nature unpredictable, but it is the reality of an emerging super-power in which we are all heavily invested.

And the hapless little torch making its way around the globe this week is shedding a glaring light on some very inconvenient truths about our relationship with China.

Protesters or no protesters, it's the attitude of the Chinese leadership that will determine if the games will be success or fiasco.

One thing for sure, arrogance and superiority doesn't go with the Olympic spirit.

Here's a vivid description from yesterday chaos in San Fransisco.

Olympic Torch Protests Overwhelm San Francisco

About half an hour before the torch was scheduled to be set aflame and carried along the San Francisco Bay waterfront, protesters began marching down The Embarcadero - a wide street that borders the eastern edge of the city - toward McCovey Cove where the lighting ceremony was underway.

A blue tour bus escorted by police motorcycles suddenly pulled away from the ceremony location. Apparently thinking the Olympic torch was aboard the bus, protesters began running toward the bus and crowding in front of it. The driver seemed to panic momentarily as protesters began banging on the windshield and shouting "free Tibet, free Tibet, free Tibet." After initially stopping to avoid running over the protesters, the driver began to accelerate, attempting to drive through the crowd at roughly five miles an hour.

Screams and shouts from the protesters and police in front of the bus eventually compelled the driver to stop after traveling about 100 feet. Protesters clung to the windows and windshield wipers of the bus, plastering it with Tibetan flag stickers. As police stepped in to try and disperse the crowd, a large metal object, thrown from a long distance, clanged off the windshield. A bottle was smashed against a side window. A police officer caught in the throng looked terrified as he was swallowed up among the rowdy protesters.

The situation was diffused when fellow protesters decided the bus was empty, a decoy used by police to try and draw the protest away from the ceremony. Police said the bus had just dropped people off at the torch lighting and was not intended to misdirect the crowd.

Early reports stated San Francisco officials decided to change the route of the torch relay in anticipation of violent demonstration. It is unclear whether the tour bus incident prompted the course change, but the incident made clear the level of anger and energy driving the protests.

The successful rope-a-dope maneuver left thousands of protesters and casual observers milling around the waterfront area, unsure if they were going to catch a glimpse of the Olympic torch on its only stop in North America.

Left stranded away from the action, the two protest factions turned on one another.

"The Tibetan protesters are rioters. China is making good progress," Steve Hu, a Chinese immigrant and vocal counterprotester said. Many counterprotesters waving Chinese flags marched through the streets, exchanging insults and fiery rhetoric with those advocating for an independent Tibet. Interactions between the two groups varied. The most common encounters were limited to basic insults and impolite hand gestures.

Originally posted by neformore
And...since when has it become the ATS way to condemn someone as a "propaganda agent" just because they have their own unique geographical viewpoint of the world from within their countries borders? Using that example, how many other nations "propaganda agents" are on this thread?

Since when is it somehow wrong to point out a potential government conspiracy taking place right here, on a conspiracy website? Perhaps you've not read some of the earlier threads on Tibet, if you bothered to, you'd see several new accounts popping up with the first posts being quite hostile towards posters with views against the PRC, there was even a post where a new member said another member's IP address could be easily tracked, and that the member should be jailed for his/her posts. As for other nation's "propaganda agents", as I've stated before, I don't think they have the self-image complex that China does. Most other governments could care less what we think, and the only two governments suspected of employing internet brigades, are China and Russia...

The Internet brigades (traditional Chinese: 網特; simplified Chinese: 网特；Russian: Веб-бригады) [1][2] are state-sponsored information warfare teams that conduct psychological operations on-line. Such teams are allegedly affiliated with state propaganda departments, military, or secret police forces. They are said to disseminate disinformation and prevent free discussions of undesirable subjects in political blogs and Internet forums by using cyberstalking, cyber-bullying and other psychological warfare methods against political bloggers or other Internet users.[3] Since the existence of Internet brigades is often officially denied, such activities may be defined as "black", covert or false flag operations (or "active measures" according to Soviet terminology).
en.wikipedia.org...

So, as a moderator on a conspiracy site, are you telling us that it is somehow against the T & C to point out possible covert operations taking place right here? Or was that just a personal post? I've never attacked anybody, or said I was certain about anything.

DENY IGNORANCE.

Indeed.

reply to post by khunmoon


China tells Olympic boss to stay out of politics

China bluntly told the world Olympics chief Thursday to keep out of politics, in a tart exchange on human rights following days of protests that have shadowed the Olympic torch around the world.

International Olympic Committee president Jacques Rogge said the Games were in "crisis" following the demonstrations, and urged China to respect its pledge to improve its rights record before the event begins in August.

China fired back that Rogge should keep politics out of the Olympics, which Beijing hoped would showcase its much-touted "peaceful rise" to power -- but which have instead become a public relations nightmare.

Separately, China's Ministry of Public Security said it had cracked a terrorist group in its Muslim-dominated northwest that was plotting to kidnap foreign journalists, tourists and athletes during the Beijing Olympics.

A taciturn Rogge, visiting the host country four months before the Games begin, admitted he was "saddened" that these Olympics, dogged by protests over Tibet and calls for a boycott, were not simply a global celebration of sport.

So it seems China really does not care about improving their human rights record.

I thought working with the Chinese would have helped their citizens, but it appears that the Chinese government does not want to back down no matter what.

As for the supposed "terrorist group crackdown" (sounds like Al Qaeda in the US, easily used as a scapegoat):


Olympic kidnap plot uncovered

CHINA says it has uncovered a criminal ring planning to kidnap athletes and others at the Beijing Olympic Games.

The Chinese Ministry's of Public Security spokesman Wu Heping told a news conference today that the ring was based in the restive western Xinjiang region.

The ring was one of two broken up by Chinese authorities.

Wu said 35 people were arrested between March 26 and April 6 for plotting to kidnap athletes, foreign journalists and other visitors to the August Olympics.

“We face a real terrorist threat,” Wu said.

He said police had confiscated almost 10 kilos of explosives and eight sticks of dynamite and “jihadist" literature in the latest raids in Urumqi, the capital of Xinjiang.

I think they are claiming to be tough on terrorism, something they have in common with the US.

Was it real? I don't know. Probably not, but that doesn't mean there isn't a "terrorism" problem worldwide.

Wu also also said those arrested had been manufacturing explosives and were plotting to attack hotels, government offices and military targets in Shanghai, Beijing and other cities.

He said the gang had been acting on orders from a radical Islamic Xinjiang independence group, East Turkestan Islamic Movement.

Western embassies asked Beijing for more information after authorities said they had broken up an attempt to hijack a plane in western China last month but so far no evidence has been provided, diplomats have said.

Ah the East Turkestan Islamic movement. I signed up with them back in the day, they were only into making anti-chinese pamphlets, nothing more...

Originally posted by 27jd
Most other governments could care less what we think, and the only two governments suspected of employing internet brigades, are China and Russia...

Pentagon boosts media war unit

So, as a moderator on a conspiracy site, are you telling us that it is somehow against the T & C to point out possible covert operations taking place right here?

There is a difference between suspecting, and knowing for sure. One requires proof. The other is ad hominem accusation. We don't do the latter here.

From the Terms and Conditions of use

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone

Now, like I said, lets Deny some Ignorance, shall we?







[edit on 10/0408/08 by neformore]

[edit on 10/0408/08 by neformore]

Originally posted by neformore
There is a difference between suspecting, and knowing for sure. One requires proof. The other is ad hominem accusation. We don't do the latter here.

Your link didn't work. I'm interested in reading it though once it's fixed.

As for proof, how could one prove these new posters were from internet brigades? Get them to admit it? Sorry, I will continue to have my suspicions.

From the Terms and Conditions of use

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone

Well, I'm all clear then. I haven't broken any of those rules, if you believe I have, by all means, feel free to point it out. However the poster that threatened IP tracking and jail time did. Where were you on that one?

Now, like I said, lets Deny some Ignorance, shall we?

I've been trying.

Okay, since you didn't correct it, I was able to find it myself, this is what I assume you were trying to link...

news.bbc.co.uk...

Pretty interesting. Thanks for the article. Guess we'll need to be on the lookout for US agents as well, although, and this is just my personal opinion, I don't think you'll have as much of a problem personally if we point it out when we suspect they are flooding certain threads. Because, to me, that would seem like a violation of this sites T & C as well, for a government paid agent to pretend to be an average Joe (or Wen), I could be wrong though.

Originally posted by 27jd
Well, I'm all clear then. I haven't broken any of those rules, if you believe I have, by all means, feel free to point it out.

You seem to be under the impression that my posts are particularly relevant to you, and they aren't. If they were meant to be, I'd have been very clear about it. Last time I checked ATS has over a million visitors a month and when it comes to the T&C, it applies to every single one of them.

If anyone has a problem with a members post where they think it violates the T&C, they can use the alert button at the bottom of the post, explain why they think there is a problem and a staff member will look at the complaint and action it if necessary.