Is This also Chinese Propaganda? EYE-WITNESSES of VIOLENT RIOT in Tibet

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
But what about tourist who saw with their own eyes that the riots were NOT about freedom anymore.

Most riots are no longer about the thing the protest began over. Most riots are about rage and mob mentality.

We are dealing with young unemployed frustrated people, who even their elderly try to get in to stop them. Maybe one should look into the economic situation of Lahsa before only starting to scream that all Tibetans want freedom.

Er, yes. Perhaps one could tell another one why the economic situation in Lhasa has led to unemployed frustrated people...

Originally posted by sy.gunsson
In your books Ichinisan you see China as part of Tibet and don't recognise their right to sovereignty.

That is apparently not only in my books, even the Dalai Lama is not claiming indepency, they are claiming a greater deal of autonomy. But what, autonomy is already given, one should know their limits and not cross certain lines.

Really, the Tibetans should know the level of freedom they are allowed in their own land and not cross the line as set by the Central Committee fo teh Chinese Communist Party? Like the Uighars in East Turkestan, er, sorry, remind me again of the name of that place, you know, the name Beijing gave it after annexing it.

Tell me were the Chinese who fought Japanese invaders terrorists too ?

Ah, so bring up the Japanese invasion is a great point, wouldn't it??

Anyhow, if you like my answer to it, I will tell you a technical answer

- No, because China was still at War with Japan, China did not capitulate yet and had still our territories from where we are operating.

So, are you admitting that China invaded Tibet? That Tibet is occupied by China after capitulating? That this is the reason why the Tibetans are terrorists, but the KMT and CCP were "freedom fighters?

So, to stretch this example just a little further, all Hitler had to do to make his conquests legal, was to last four decades. Then Charles de Gaulle, King Haakon, Queen Wilhelmina and the other Governments-in-exile would have become international terrorists because they would have been supporting terrorists in France, Norway, the Netherlands etc, instead of supporting freedom fighters, Maquis, partisans, Resistance, call them what you will.

Nice precedent you're setting there...

Originally posted by antar
PROPAGANDA!!!!
We are the fargin consumers that support their economy and when they will not listen to our wishes and respect our religious opinion, then to china with them!

My family tried and continues to do so in terms of Chinese goods.

I posted this OP/ED in 2005
OP/ED: Boycotting China: Despite The Apparent Futility, My Family Will Try

It has been hard and in some areas downright impossible to do so. But every bit helps. It takes effort and time and yes sometimes it costs more moeny but we have reduced our consumption of chinese goods by about 25%. Even if cost were no option, there sometimes is no option.

We are at the cusp of simply not watching ANY Olympic games this time. Its pretty clear the the IOC is a bunch of whores to be purchased for top dollar and the wholesale clearing out of people to build Olympic venues sickens me.

Back on topic: I agree this is simply ChiCom propaganda and poor ones at that. I assume its for internal consumption, because no one is buying it outside of the country.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Most riots are no longer about the thing the protest began over. Most riots are about rage and mob mentality.

I agree with this statement, and people in the wold should look more objectively at what actually happened in Lahsa instead of doing the guessing, and finger-pointing.

Er, yes. Perhaps one could tell another one why the economic situation in Lhasa has led to unemployed frustrated people...

You know, this could become very complex, especially if we have Han Chinese and Hui Muslim business men claiming that the Tibetans overall speaking lack the same working-mentality as their etc on one hand, and the on other hand that unemployed people tend to blame others for discrimination etc. When I have more time I would like to discuss this more.

Really, the Tibetans should know the level of freedom they are allowed in their own land and not cross the line as set by the Central Committee fo teh Chinese Communist Party? Like the Uighars in East Turkestan, er, sorry, remind me again of the name of that place, you know, the name Beijing gave it after annexing it.

Set by the law. We can go on of arguing either Tibet is a part of China or not. But I don't think we both will reach a conclusion on this, even if we pull out all the history books going back years, decades and centuries. And I feel it is senseless to bring up all kinds of different examples to try convincing me (or us), you will be always comparing apples with oranges.
The very fact at this moment is that Tibet IS a part of China now, a part which is given a high degree of autonomy, but in this autonomous province people need to follow the law as set by the central and local governments.

So, to stretch this example just a little further, all Hitler had to do to make his conquests legal, was to last four decades. Then Charles de Gaulle, King Haakon, Queen Wilhelmina and the other Governments-in-exile would have become international terrorists because they would have been supporting terrorists in France, Norway, the Netherlands etc, instead of supporting freedom fighters, Maquis, partisans, Resistance, call them what you will.

Nice precedent you're setting there...

No, you are putting words in my mouth and stretching/twisting my answer to a totally seperate question to fit arguments that is very far-fetched.

reply to post by FredT


You should definitely continue doing so.

By the way, so which imported products you are still buying? I hope for your cause that it is not made-in-Vietnam or the like though. That would be so hypocritical, isn't it?

On a second thought, would you buy products if you know that the products are made by people in a developing country who could use that salary to feed their family, raise their children and sent them to universities?

[edit on 21/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by IchiNiSan

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Most riots are no longer about the thing the protest began over. Most riots are about rage and mob mentality.

I agree with this statement, and people in the wold should look more objectively at what actually happened in Lahsa instead of doing the guessing, and finger-pointing.

Yes, perhaps we should ask why they are angry.

Er, yes. Perhaps one could tell another one why the economic situation in Lhasa has led to unemployed frustrated people...

You know, this could become very complex,

Not really. First you tried to tell us about the massive economic advancement that Han immigration has bought to Tibet and that the Tibetans should be grateful for this and we should respect Beijing for it, then you dismissed the protestors as angry young men who can't get jobs. Well, which is it? Are the Tibetans massively better off under Han stewardship or do they have a reason to be angry?

Really, the Tibetans should know the level of freedom they are allowed in their own land and not cross the line as set by the Central Committee fo teh Chinese Communist Party?

Set by the law.

Again, whose law and in whose land? Well, you made that plain

The very fact at this moment is that Tibet IS a part of China now, a part which is given a high degree of autonomy, but in this autonomous province people need to follow the law as set by the central and local governments.

Governments chosen by who?

And as for this

you will be always comparing apples with oranges.

Where have I done so?

So, to stretch this example just a little further, all Hitler had to do to make his conquests legal, was to last four decades.

Nice precedent you're setting there...

No, you are putting words in my mouth and stretching/twisting my answer to a totally seperate question to fit arguments that is very far-fetched.

Really? Putting words in your mouth? Let's look at your words.

Tell me were the Chinese who fought Japanese invaders terrorists too ?

- No, because China was still at War with Japan, China did not capitulate yet and had still our territories from where we are operating.

The very fact at this moment is that Tibet IS a part of China now

So, how am I twisting your answer?

Tell me where I get this wrong...

You will admit that prior to the Chinese invasion there were no Chinese troops in Tibet and Tibet did not answer to the central authority of Beijing. Some have called this invasion a "liberation", but the fact is Chinese troops entered Tibet from outside.

Just as Japanese troops entered China from outside.

What makes Chinese citizens' resistance legal is the mere fact that China (under the KMT) did not capitulate (your term) to Japan.

Therefore, because Petain and Laval signed the surrender on behalf of France and began the Vichy government, the actions of the Free French were illegal because France had capitulated.

Also, therefore, we can assume that you regard Tibet as having capitulated to Beijing and this capitulation makes any Tibetan freedom-fighter a terrorist.

Despite Tibet having a government-in-exile, just as the occupied Low Countries (and Norway) did in WW2.

Now, because "the very fact at this moment is that Tibet IS a part of China now", we can see that it doesn't matter how territory comes into your possession, all you need to do is hang onto it for five or six decades and it's yours. It doesn't matter that the indigenous government at the time of invasion has set up a government-in-exile (as the Low Countries and Norway did), those roughly sixty years of occupation change the territory from being Chinese by occupation to de jure Chinese land and any attempts to declare this not to be so or any actions designed to put an end to it are therefore "terrorism".

So, given that you have expressed this opinion, it can therefore be seen that all the Nazis had to do was hang on to France (Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Czeckoslovakia etc) until the mid-eighties and France (et al) would be a part of Germany now and any action by an Ami or a Mademoiselle to protest this or put an end to it would be terrorism.

[edit on 21-3-2008 by HowlrunnerIV]

reply to post by FredT


I do not know where this is leading, but I know that it has started a ball rolling that will bring major change for their country. Here is a fairly unbiased article I found while looking at yahoo news you may like to read.

news.bbc.co.uk...

What really bothers me is that they refuse to allow foreign newscasters into the area.

Originally posted by DINSTAAR
I think this story has merit but I will say that eyewitness testimony is somewhat invalid. LINK

I am glad you raised up the validity of eyewitnesses. The first thing it came in mind to me when I thought about this is the movie/book 'the atonement'. But to discount all eyewitnesses would be like closing our eyes for the reality and to allow us to look at certain "versions" of the fact.

Even in the article the car experiment in the 70s of introducing false statements or changing it to hit/smash etc would not matter that much in events like the Lahsa bloody riot. Eyewitnesses saw the car having an accident is more than enough, Eyewitnesses coming back from Lahsa saw Tibetan rioters attacking an old Chinese man. Do we need to know the details? If this eyewitness could provide some, fine we can listen it as stories and record it, but it does not matter. He saw Tibetan rioters attacking the old Chinese man. That is good enough for now and this is a fact what happened.

We are dealing with multiple neutral eyewitnesses whose stories are quite consistent to each other. Unless someone claim that all returning tourists who are now providing eyewitnesses accounts and records to Western reporters are all being brainwashed before allowing stepping in the plane, then the overall picture still holds of that there was a violent riot and the supposedly crackdown did not happen.

So eyewitnesses is valid, and especially in this case when nobody will believe Han Chinese eyewitnesses or official reports. These are neutral foreign eyewitnesses who has no relation with the Chinese government claiming they have seen with their own eyes how horrific the rioters were.

Then in my opinion a swift and fierce (even with force) action by the authorities is required.

Do I think Tibet should be free... yes. This is a hard yes though considering they have China on one side of the coin and on the other they have the Dalai Lama which ruled Tibet with an iron fist. I make it a rule to exclude any of the Lama's arguments for "his free Tibet" on the basis that he is just trying to get the power he previously had back. On that note, I make it a general rule to exclude the drastic reports given to the Western Media and the antithesis reports given by the Chinese Media.

This is of course an opinion you know I am fully against at, but nonetheless I do respect you the way how you try to see the issue from a more objective point of view at this Tibet/China issue than most people I have encountered in ATS.

Well, I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Are some Tibetans crossing the line in their protests? Probably. Do the Tibetans have a good reason to be angry. Answer probably also yes.

I agree with this statement. IF I was in China's shoes I would be angry, but if I were in Tibet I would want to strive for independence. What I see as likely to happen is a similar outcome as the IRA ceasefire in the UK. The people of Tibet will stop protesting in exchange for more power in their state.

The central government knows we need to find a peaceful solution to this situation. Wen Jiabao is willing to talk with the Dalai Lama in an open dialogue. However, would it make sense to talk with the Dalai Lama now when hardliners in his fraction is looking for a violent solution instead of start to have a little bit faith in talking with the Chinese government? Even the Dalai Lama seems to be tired of the violent solutions his hard-liners are looking for. Of course I will not get into how much I would trust what the Dalai Lama is saying, after all, I seldomly trust someone who has linkages with the CIA/NED.

What is odd about this situation is that China and the US have similar, if not the same, interests. All producers require consumers, and all consumers require producers. And even though the interests are similar they stand themselves up against the other in protest. It is like a mock-fight. Nothing about it is real but people will get wound up anyway(Nationalism). China gives the US government a reason to take away more of our freedoms and vice versa.

I have been to China. It is a cool place, and it is not like the news portrays it. I know many Chinese studying over here that have grown to love America. They are vastly different(for good reason), but the biggest thing that separates us is only the Pacific Ocean.

Not only China or USA, actually we are living in a World community wherein everyone needs everyone. The economic systems are so open that we are all dependent on each other. However, we are dealing with tons of different cultures and ethnicities which are very often the burden to understand the other party. Only with continuous communications, and sharing of thoughts and an open mindset one can really understand each other. Only with leaving behind all our prejudices and give respect to someone's else culture we would be able to develop a properous (world) community.

It is so much easier to say than done. For example it stuns me still on a daily base that I myself as a Chinese also have so much to learn about the Chinese culture, which is unlike someone would think is just one two three like that. There are more than 1.3 billion (my guesses much more) Chinese people in China, each single province and sometimes even each single region has their own specific characteristics and very often with their own languages/dialects. So how can someone who never visitted China or just a few times for holidays, fully understand the 5000 year old Chinese culture? (Ps. Not to criticize you, but just an open question I wanted to ask so many people, who probably will never really think about this question)

reply to post by HowlrunnerIV


the reason why they are angry is kind of rumor.
some gansters with ulterior motives started the campaign and spread rumor to instigate other naive tibetans to join in. and now there are more than four millions of tibetans, why there r only hundreds of them taking to the street? wierd, right?

gangsters should be punished for their commitment such as killing and burning. the deaths contain some of innocent tibetan ppl even. sign.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Yes, perhaps we should ask why they are angry.

Look, you are repeating yourself again.

Er, yes. Perhaps one could tell another one why the economic situation in Lhasa has led to unemployed frustrated people...

You know, this could become very complex,

Not really. First you tried to tell us about the massive economic advancement that Han immigration has bought to Tibet and that the Tibetans should be grateful for this and we should respect Beijing for it, then you dismissed the protestors as angry young men who can't get jobs. Well, which is it? Are the Tibetans massively better off under Han stewardship or do they have a reason to be angry?

First of all, you should read my posts more carefully, and stop twisting the context of someone's else post.
Secondly unemployment very often goes hand in hand with the level of education, which is accesible for everyone in China including Tibet. All over the world the relatively lower educated people are having the most difficulties to look for a job. It is a fact that unemployment young men are going to Lahsa hoping for a better future, but if there are not enough jobs, then their are not enough jobs. No government in the world can just simply snap the finger to have the jobs created. Despite the economic development of China for the past 30 years, don't be misled by incorrect reporting, China is STILL a DEVELOPING country. Unemployment is unfortunately not the only problem in the Tibet province, it is still wide-spread in China, the Chinese government faces this challenge and need to create like 50 million jobs all over the country. The Chinese government is trying their best to develop the country, but the resources are always scarce, by allocating billions to the remotely regioned Tibet province, the central government has started developing the economy over their. First step is making use of the unique culture and beautiful landscape, so tourism can bloom. Agriculture and Mining is two other industries which need to be given more focus, and no mining is not equivalent to slavery it can be conducted in a human way and a neccsity in the world economy. What else you wanna bring to Tibet for development? I would not want to see factories being set up their, although I am sure that if made-in-Tibet label will sell in the world or the rest of China, then there will be people willing to invest there. Maybe IT technologies and other remote services, educating teenagers to what we see in India could be one of the solutions.
I can go on and on, but what is the point here? Most important is that China is still a developing nation, and it would need time to develop the innerland provinces, but guanranteed assured provided the stability it is required to develop a region, then Tibet should also flourish and proper like some of the coast provinces.

Again, whose law and in whose land? Well, you made that plain

Again, you are boring me, can you start giving Constructive criticism instead of yelling out something?

Governments chosen by who?

Idem dito, see above comment.

And for the rest of your reply, we could even go much further back in history if you want. But that would be a waste of time in my opinion. You believe Tibet should be a seperate state, fine, be my guest to keep on thinking this. After all reality is that Tibet is a part of China and there will and should be no changes on this status, if terrorists continue their violent acts, well likewise in the rest of the world, in China these terrorists will also be knocked down. I don't mind my government using force to do so, especially if these terrorists targetted/are targetting at civilians.

reply to post by wwssii


What?

"The reason they are angry is kind of rumour"?

"They followed gangsters"?

Are friggin' serious? This is the level of discourse I expect from Phnom Penh, not Beijing. Is this really the crap they are feeding you?

"Gangsters". God I hope that is your inability to find the correct word in your Mandarin-English translation dictionary, 'cause if that is really what you meant to say, then mate, you have got bigger problems than whether a bunch of foreigners listen to the Dalai Lama.

If that last post is an idication of current Chinese thought process, then
A) the PRC and it's population are at least 60 years behind the rest of us and B) maybe it really is time to worry about what will happen if the entire Chinese population all jumped at once, 'cause the flock ain't thinking much before it speaks.

And you question my maturity.

Originally posted by antar
What really bothers me is that they refuse to allow foreign newscasters into the area.

chinese dont trust your western journalists for their non-objective reports could only make the riot escalate to a wrong direction.

i want to add that if China allow foreign reporters to go to tibet, there are inevitably some Dalai's followers disguising themselves as reporters to sneak into tibet and then incite bigger turbulence i guess.

[edit on 21-3-2008 by wwssii]

Originally posted by antar
What really bothers me is that they refuse to allow foreign newscasters into the area.

Antar, this is a point I also agree, it is very regretful we didn't let foreign reporters to stay in the city after the riots broke out.

I do understand that our government mistrust foreign reporters, who quite often report certain situation with a quite biased view. Nonetheless, if the reporters stayed there and could see why the police need to defense the civilians (people are being burned to death!), EVEN IF they used force it would always be better than all these Western media quessing and yelling out censorships/propaganda/bloodbath etc. I would still say "well done", at least no secrecy give them full transparancy. If people still blamed the government using force (which I am quite sure there will be somebody doing it), then these people are anyhow clouded by the anti-China sentiment instead of looking at the event itself. They will criticize the Chinese government anyhow, so what's the big deal.

Maybe the track-record and relation between China and Western media are really too bad







[edit on 21/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

[edit on 21/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

reply to post by HowlrunnerIV


obviously you have a better knowldge of english than me. LOL.
so, now, please tell me what is the reason for the rioters to protest in such a barbarian way in your great opinion.
and answer this question i posted above "there are more than four millions of tibetans, why are there only hundreds of them taking to the street?"

reply to post by wwssii


They refuse to allow ANY out side unbiased news reports!
This is my point, whether or not they allow western or not, there are still many other countries around the world with their eyes and hearts set on this monumental issue.

[edit on 21-3-2008 by antar]

reply to post by IchiNiSan


The problem is that do you really think that as the Chinese Military shouts out "Western and world wide bias in news reporting" that "THEY" themselves are innocent of this same position?
If they have nothing to cover up, to conceal, then bring in the media circus.
It matters not what is being said, what is important is the massive casualties of a situation that is simply screaming for world attention, for world intervention, world help.
The Chinese Military will not perish, but the Tibetans and all sympathizers of the Llamas will if something does not happen to stop these raids and witch hunts! This reminds me of the Christian crusades, Hitler, Stalin, and all the other evil dictators throughout history. It Never ends well for the dictators, but at what cost to human lives and suffering before change even happens?

Originally posted by wwssii
reply to post by HowlrunnerIV

 

"there are more than four millions of Tibetans, why are there only hundreds of them taking to the street?"

It is Always a small handful of the brave that stand up against tyranny in the end. It is not about the numbers, the numbers do not matter in the end.
What does matter is that they have had it with the oppression and are representing the needs of the masses. You would not expect old ladies and the crippled, the weak and the disparaged to join in this brave stand now would you? No that would be unnecessary, futile, pathetic.

Originally posted by antar

The problem is that do you really think that as the Chinese Military shouts out "Western and world wide bias in news reporting" that "THEY" themselves are innocent of this same position? If they have nothing to cover up, to conceal, then bring in the media circus.

Note the "eyewitnesses" accounts, which do support and is consistent the Chinese media reporting. Even some foreign media starts to report some consistency with the Chinese media. And of course any media will be to some extend a bit more bias to "their side", and the Chinese media would also need to inform the public that we did injure some of the rioters. Again, what's the big deal of doing to that violent rioters who were attacking innocent civilians. I don't see the Free Tibet reporting that "their freedom-fighters" killed and burned civilians either.

It matters not what is being said, what is important is the massive casualties of a situation that is simply screaming for world attention, for world intervention, world help.

Again, "massive casualties"? Well more than a dozen innocents civilians being killed could be considered massive then. Or are you referring to the overly biased records from the DL clans?

Hmmm, then one recent disaster came in mind about biases in media reporting. Why we have not seen much reporting over the world about the Chinese New Year Winter disaster just a month or two ago? Did the world yelled out for world attention, for world intervention, world help to help the hundreds of millions victims to the unexpected winter storms all over China? Did you uberhaupt know that there were hundreds of millions of Chinese people spread out in China being affected by this winter storm and that most of them hardly could even get the basics like food, water and electricity? Was even in ATS any threads created to inform the ATS community of this disaster? If yes, then I definitely do not see these hypocritical anti-China bashers were out in mass to yell out for world help. The Chinese government is justified to have pre-judices that the Western media is too often biased, even though I do regret that their is mistrust among the world for each other's reporting.

The Chinese Military will not perish, but the Tibetans and all sympathizers of the Llamas will if something does not happen to stop these raids and witch hunts! This reminds me of the Christian crusades, Hitler, Stalin, and all the other evil dictators throughout history. It Never ends well for the dictators, but at what cost to human lives and suffering before change even happens?

Again, from your point of view, you are only thinking about that the Tibetans are the victims in these riots, foreign eyewitnesses have witnessed something else, but you choose to ignore those facts. Or do you believe that an Old Chinese man being killed does not need any sympathy? The Chinese forces are here in China to protect civilians, if you do not break the law then you can further help developing an building the nation. If you break or have broken the law be guaranteed that any government would need to prosecute (your so-called witch-Hunt) these law-breakers. And China is quite effective in doing that, which is only a good cause to be efficient and effective removing the dangers to society so quickly.




[edit on 21/3/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by antar

Originally posted by wwssii
reply to post by HowlrunnerIV

 

"there are more than four millions of Tibetans, why are there only hundreds of them taking to the street?"

It is Always a small handful of the brave that stand up against tyranny in the end. It is not about the numbers, the numbers do not matter in the end.
What does matter is that they have had it with the oppression and are representing the needs of the masses. You would not expect old ladies and the crippled, the weak and the disparaged to join in this brave stand now would you? No that would be unnecessary, futile, pathetic.

Actually this comment of yours means that you do support terrorist and it is OK for these terrorists to organize riots against the common civilians. Hmm, very interesting.

reply to post by antar


unbiased media ? please introduce one for Chinese!
small brave man can represent all Tibetan ppl? what about the deaths of tibetan in the riot. even including doctors. who is the killer? of couse, gangsters!

Originally posted by antar

This is my point, whether or not they allow western or not, there are still many other countries around the world with their eyes and hearts set on this monumental issue.

[edit on 21-3-2008 by antar]

of course , the whole world would grasp this issue and distort the truth to the end. i guess your next sentence would be boycotting olympic, right?
your purpose surely is not the protection of tibet but to sabotage Chinese image. it is really weird anytime when something happends in China, you western ppl always open a big eye to scrutinize if any error made by Chinese gov. you never look into the essence of the event.

but the Tibetans and all sympathizers of the Llamas will if something does not happen to stop these raids and witch hunts!

this sentence should be spoken like this: the Tibetans' normal life would be disrupted if something does not happen to stop the riot and arrest the criminals.
everyone should be sent to justice if he perpetrates crimes like killing and burning. no matter he is a monk or farmer. now, they are perpetrators and then they Would be prisoners. that is the meaning of LAW.