The state of 9/11 Truth: not pretty

Originally posted by weedwhacker

I simply would like to point out that there are only a few hundred, OK, maybe a few thousand dissenters as pertains to the 'official' 9/11 story.

I sit here, reading on my screen, and wish to be educated. So, educate me.....

Whoa! That is a whopper, ww! I'll proceed to educate...

36% of the population thinks it's either LIHOP or MIHOP. Check out the thread on this, "If belief in 9/11 conspiracy were a political party, it would rank # 1" for the backup polling.

That's about 100 million people.

reply to post by Griff


Griff,

I love that avatar, BTW...I wish I could learn how to 'pull' quotes form other's posts, in order to 'spin' my subsequent post.

I see this done frequently, here on ATS...it makes it very difficult to ascertain the original intent of the post I am trying to understand.

It is an honor, though, that you did it to me.

I am slightly insulted, however, by your last line..."1 + 1 = 2"

That is a revelation!! Wow! All I asked for was some proof, and I got a simple math equation! Guess I'm humbled now......

[adding]

I let my emotions show through, sorry. It just gets frustrating, at times. Back to the thread...the OP posited that 9/11 'truth' seems to be floundering. Is that the case? If not, what have we missed in the discussions?

[edit on 20-3-2008 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
guess I strayed ... the ability to hit a tall building in CAVU conditions shouldn't be the question. It is dead simple to steer an airplane in flight.

How about a low building? One that is surrounded by taller buildings. Plus, after ripping some of your wing off from hitting light poles? Plus, a few meters off the ground at 500 mph?

Could you do it?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Back to the thread...the OP posited that 9/11 'truth' seems to be floundering. Is that the case? If not, what have we missed in the discussions?

I'll agree that the "truth movement" is floundering.

But, I won't agree with the reasons put forth by the Op and the subsequent debunkers.

0 out of 1,000 reporters weren't even the slightest bit interested? I highly doubt that.

reply to post by gottago


Thanks, gottago...I'm assuming you are referring to US residents? I mean, you used 36% (where are your sources) and you came up with a number of about 100,000,000....makes sense, based on the US population estimates.

But, again...I am not taking sides...we need to discuss this with facts, not 'opinions'.

Not to go off-topic, but I have an opinion, and you have an opinion, and about 6 billion other people all have an opinion. We need a consensus that the facts supports. Let's focus there....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Griff,

I love that avatar, BTW...

Thanks.

I wish I could learn how to 'pull' quotes form other's posts, in order to 'spin' my subsequent post.

Use [*quote]part you want quoted[/*quote]

Just don't use the * s.

I see this done frequently, here on ATS...it makes it very difficult to ascertain the original intent of the post I am trying to understand.

I do it because I have been dinged for "excessive quoting".

Now, I'm being blamed for "quote mining".

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.

reply to post by Griff


Griff!!!


LOL! I have been 'dinged' as well, for quoting...I can't even spell 'ecxessive' without spellcheck!

OK....I get your point, and your points!!

I am not here to debate, the 9/11 'truth', nor the 9/11 'official story'. It's been almost seven years.

It's just...how could a massive conspiracy of this magnitude, if it were a conspiracy, be held down for so long? I know, the Gov't can intimidate and threaten, not only the persons involved, but their families too...

Cannot someone, somewhere crawl out and give an anonymous report (I'm reminded of 'deepthroat' in the WaterGate era...).

Sidebar: Whatever the facts of 9/11, it destroyed any joy I used to have in my career as an airline pilot. The BS establishment of DHS was only the start...the total BS that goes on, every day, at every airport makes it ever and ever inconvenient to fly. Behind the scenes, things I will not divulge, security is better than ever. Yet!!! If you are travelling by air, you are subjected to Draconian methods that are, frankly, useless and unproductive. Sometimes, and this may seem harsh, I am reminded of stories I've read about Nazi-controlled Europe, just a few decades ago....

reply to post by weedwhacker



I'm not here to persuad anyone to believe what I believe either. Frankly, I'm not sure what I believe.

I'm glad we have another pilot on here (not saying another as in I'm a pilot....I'm not). The more experience we can pull together, the better to come to the conclusions needed. Whether it be pro or con.

Cheers.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
It's just...how could a massive conspiracy of this magnitude, if it were a conspiracy, be held down for so long?

You are your own explanation. How differently do you think everyone else thinks? Everyone else is conditioned, similarly to you, to wait for somebody else to figure out that something is wrong. And unless that "somebody" is a news anchor, or a political representative, in this case, people find it hard to believe because they don't WANT to believe it.

The real question is, why not look for yourself? Physics is taught in high schools all over the nation and yet who here really understands what's being considered when it's discussed? Not because it's hard, but because everyone is apathetic, and turned off to it by our educational system.

If you want to have faith in something, have faith in the objectivity that so many people have ascribed to science, meaning figure it out for yourself. You can never prove what other people say just on the basis that they said it and you trust them; I don't think you could really appreciate an opinion on the subject without looking it over objectively for yourself.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by dk3000

 

dk3000, I had to respond to a portion of your post up above. I don't know what airline pilots you've talked to, but your comment that they couldn't have pulled off the 9/11 attacks WITHOUT help from ATC is ludicrous! Sorry for being blunt, but it is silly.

Background: ATC is sort of a misnomer. Now, before you start shooting arrows at me, allow me to explain. Air Traffic Control is an authority designed to have an overview of air traffic within the area of responsibility of a particular controller, and to provide guidance, and/or give instructions to the airplanes in his/her sector in order to maintain order, provide safe separation standards, and co-ordinate the flow of traffic.

A pilot is not a slave to ATC! We both know the rules of the road, so to speak. Pilots think of themselves as 'users' of the system, a 'customer' if you will. We know what is expected of us, and we respect what the controllers do in return. There are personality clashes, occasionally, but it isn't any different from any two professionals having a minor disagreement within their selected field.

My point is...ATC is like a traffic cop, and I apologize for that, not intended to demean the job, or the responsibilities, and there is much more that goes on, I know...but just to make it simple, that's it. By the same token, an airline pilot is just a glorified bus driver! Yes, we have to take a lot more tests, and our skill sets are different, but within the system, we h ave little leeway. We are pigeon-holed into the structure, and it is designed for safety first....

guess I strayed ... the ability to hit a tall building in CAVU conditions shouldn't be the question. It is dead simple to steer an airplane in flight.

Especially when you aren't worried about being smooth on the controls, when your only focus is a whacked-out mission of suicide/murder!

I hear you and I am not offended at all. The blunt point about my request for the video is merely because all the surveillance tapes were confiscated and destroyed. They no longer exist- hence my point. The commission is all about evidence and those tapes would in fact be evidence which would support the report- its all I am saying. And it would end an enormous controversy and place much of the debate where it needs to be- the examination of evidence- which has not yet occurred. The fact that our government declared war with Iraq and Afghanistan in retaliation for those responsible for 9/11- requires according to the constitution, irrefutable evidence which would support the act of war. Not only was this evidence never shown- the lack of continued investigation is insane- beyond belief- naturally opening up much space for controversy and conspiracy theories. Even the president said "Let's not get caught up in wild conspiracy theories". Evidence would have prevented the president from even having to make that statement- the fact he did says a lot in support of conspiracies.

Pilots for truth and various professional pilots expressing their knowledge are on numerous videos, DVD's, websites and such, and you know this- as do most so to repost them is sort of redundant.

I was specifically impressed by the candor of several pilots in various magazine, newspapers and the resignation of many people in the air industry who were just disgusted and disillusioned by the industry- and this speaks volumes to me- and it needs to because:

A. I am not a pilot and therefore know little or nothing about the abilities of major aircraft- So I must rely on their expertise until such time as I fly an aircraft for myself.

B. When a pilot has a perfect record and is considered an expert- they have credibility and deserve our respect and attention.

The pilots I am referring to have suspiciously been linked to Prison Planet- which they were not when I began my investigation into professional pilots and what they have to say. Most of their commentary were based on procedures that pilots follow under these conditions or similar circumstances and given the biographies of the hijackers and their pilot training skills- what we saw could not have been possible. I must believe they know better than we do what is possible given all of the circumstances.

So I am going on what they say- rather than drawing my own ill-informed conclusions based on no experience of my own.

I must depend on the professional experience of experts in their field. Here is a link to some pretty comprehensive studies conducted by professional pilots and scholars for 9/11 truth: stj911.org...

Its one of the few sites that is not linked to Alex Jones and his ilk.



[edit on 20-3-2008 by dk3000]

reply to post by dk3000


Griff, I have no idea about survelliance tapes being confiscated and destroyed....that is a crime, in my opinion.

If there are questions surrounding the 'official' story of 9/11, then we must continue to explore them. Plain and simple!

When I am lied to by the Government I pay taxes to, and expect services in return for my taxes, then I DEMAND accountability!!! It is that simple.

WE THE PEOPLE!!!!!

reply to post by weedwhacker


Mosey on over to the OP on the thread for the relevant links. The figures come from a Scripps poll in 2006 (assume they're even higher now).

Yes that's US population: 100 million, and counting.

reply to post by gottago


ummmm....as far as I know, the US Population is somethig like 380 million, and counting....

Where's your 100 million from? 1910?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by gottago

 

ummmm....as far as I know, the US Population is somethig like 380 million, and counting....

Where's your 100 million from? 1910?

380,000,000 X .36 (36%) = 136,800,000

That's over 100 million.

reply to post by weedwhacker


According to the CIA (they ought to know): United States — Population: 301,139,947 (July 2007 est.)

36% is 108, 410,381. I was making a rough estimate; I missed 8.4 million people or so.

Anyway, that's a few more than a couple of thousand.

reply to post by gottago


Thanks gottago and griff, you jumped down my throat with all four feet...am I to assume that you allege 1/3 of all Americans are finding something fishy in the official story of 9/11? Is THAT your point?

One must be very careful with 'poll' results...if a small sample of those 'polled' resulted in a 36% answer that 'Yes, I do have doubts about the official story" then we need to first realize that it is a SMALL sample. One cannot simply jump to the conclusion that the 36% number can be applied to the entire population!! It is ludicrous to think that.

Secondly, what specifically were the questions asked? This information must be known to put the 'polling' into context....any help here would be nice....

reply to post by weedwhacker



Personally, I don't go by any polls. Like you said, the demographic polled and the questions asked are of extreme importance.

I was once called for a poll. I didn't get far because the first question asked was "are you a republican?". I said no. Then I got a dial tone.

So, IMO, polls are usually skewed one way or the other depending on who is conducting the poll.

BTW, I wasn't jumping down your throat. Apologies if it seamed I was.

reply to post by weedwhacker


Here's the link to the OP, it provides the basic information on the poll and a link to the article itself.

There's no allegation here: go read it, finally.

This is not the only 9/11 poll out there, off the top of my head I know Zogby has done one as well with similar results, and there are doubtless others.

Well, if you don't believe in polls, that's one way to answer it. But these are the top polling companies and that's a tough slog to negate 108 million opinions.

And you can still look on the glass half-full side and feel satisfied nearly 2/3 of the population still tow the line...

[edit on 21-3-2008 by gottago]

reply to post by Griff


OK, Griff....no, it was a metaphoric post, in regards to jumping down throats...

There's an old joke, forget which comedian said it on his deathbed...

"Comedy is easy. Dying, now THAT'S hard"

Comedy on the internet is hard, and usually falls flat! But, we learn from our mistakes...

Back on track...I just have to re-read, now and then, the original OP's message...and, seems there is a good point made there. It's been six and a half years...but still, the 'truth' movement is relegated to back channels and groundswell movements that seem to falter, when looked at closely. Dare I say, maybe I'm a cynic, but it does appear that there is money to made when writing conspiracy books, and producing DVDs, and such....just a thought to throw out into the ocean of knowledge....along with the other chum....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Back on track...I just have to re-read, now and then, the original OP's message...and, seems there is a good point made there. It's been six and a half years...but still, the 'truth' movement is relegated to back channels and groundswell movements that seem to falter, when looked at closely.

Where do you look at the movement "closely" from? A few internet sites? How much of these 6 years have you even been around? It's gone from virtually nobody, to even numerous independent organizations of scientific and engineering professionals, aside from the "grassroots" side of things on the streets, several very large marches through Washington DC and other cities have also taken place in the past few years. When you look away from something you don't want to see, OF COURSE you won't see it. At least no one asks us where all the experts are anymore.

Dare I say, maybe I'm a cynic, but it does appear that there is money to made when writing conspiracy books, and producing DVDs, and such....

Guess how much I've seen/spent of it?

And yet I'm still here, just the same.

just a thought to throw out into the ocean of knowledge....along with the other chum....

Really? You wouldn't just trying to be illegitimizing all of us in your eyes, would you? A cheap way to slide having to look at anything that would actively discriminate whether or not 9/11 was more than reported on CNN anf FOX?