The state of 9/11 Truth: not pretty

Originally posted by coughymachine

Originally posted by jthomas
Well, if you would realize that using the 9/11 Truth Movement's fallacious canard and strawman, "Official Story", is a hoot to rational people, you'd stop using it and think instead.

And yet, if you visit GPO Access, you will find an online copy of the 'Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, Official Government Edition'

Apparently, you don't know the difference between a "report" and a "story". Neither do yuou understand the 9/11 Commission's limited mandate. Neither do you you understand that NIST, FEMA, and ASCE, are separate reports.

Neither have been been able to refute any of the evidence and conclusions. You just think they're "stories" so you don't have to put yourself in the position of having to refute anything.

Simplay amazing.

Originally posted by saturnsrings
reply to post by jthomas

 

Most of us "tin foil hat wearers" have thought about this subject, we came to the conclusion you are afraid of. I've tried to talk about 9/11 to other people, they don't want to hear about it, why? My guess is they are afraid that, if their government would pull somthing like this, what's next? They don't want to think!!, they are living in their own little world, not giving a crap that Bush and his cronies are slowly taking away their rights, thinking, I have nothing to hide, so I don't care, well I used to be that way too, til I DID think, I did some research, It changed me forever.

9/11 Truthers do not want to acknowledge that the burden of proof is on 9/11 Truthers' shoulders to demonstrate that the government is even a suspect in a crime. Instead they criticize "average" people for not seeing the "light" that Truthers cannot even demonstrate after six years.

I and others are skeptics and, as such, we question everything, in particular claims and assertions that have no evidence behind them. Six years after 9/11, the 9/11 Truth Movement is stuck in the mud with nothing to show but the same claims and assertions it cannot back up.

The fallacy that Truthers fall for is that the government "must be a suspect." That's real easy to do. They fail to realize that the evidence of what happened on 9/11 is independent of the government or whatever it says about the evidence. It's easy for 9/11 Truthers to substitute the "government" for actual "evidence", the evidence never in control with the government to begin with.

It's easy to try to shift the burden of proof from 9/11 Truthers to the government but we skeptics know it doesn't work. The burden of proof is on their shoulders.

And we have seen nothing credible in the full six years they been active.



[edit on 16-3-2008 by jthomas]

reply to post by jthomas

I do know that there exists an Official Government Edition of a Report you claim does not represent the official account of the events of 9/11.

And, if we have to dance to the tune of your silly attempts at wriggling out of acknowledging the blindingly obvious, then we can state that the 9/11 Commission Report is very clearly an official account of the events covered by its mandate and that the government accepts it as such.

I'd also be interested to see any correspondence you have had with the publishers of the debunker's Bible, Popular Mechanics, about what you must surely believe is their errant use of the term 'official consensus'.

More than 3000 books on 9/11 have been published; many of them reject the official consensus that hijackers associated with Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda flew passenger planes into U.S. landmarks.

Of course, I don't need to tell you that the mainstream media is replete with this and similar terms.

So start a campaign, jthomas, and waste more of your worthless time trying to stop the whole media industry using a term it appears you and you alone believe to be wrong.

Good luck with that.

[edit on 16-3-2008 by coughymachine]

reply to post by coughymachine


Stop with the silly simantics and please provide us all with evidence that proves once and for all that the government LIHOP or MIHOP.

It's been almost 6 1/2 years. So far all you guy got is a guy pulling it and Liars like Alex Jones, Judy Woods, Steven Jones, Kevin Ryan...... and my favorite Dick Gage. (see link below)

The fact is, the truthers have added nothing to support their claims in the 6 years or so that they have been around.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
reply to post by coughymachine

 

Stop with the silly simantics...

You stop right there. You're suggesting I stop with the silly semantics when I'm in a conversation with the King of Silly Semantics and Ultimate Thread-Killer/Derailer? No way.

If this guy wants to piss around skirting the issues and playing word games, I'm more than happy to oblige, and no half-arsed attempt by you to rescue him from being forced to expose his intellectual shortcomings will stop me.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious...and please provide us all with evidence that proves once and for all that the government LIHOP or MIHOP.

It's been almost 6 1/2 years.

And during this time, none of the answers have been forthcoming.

Unlike you, I am not wedded to a theory. This is because I have not seen sufficient evidence to support either the official theory nor any alternative.

Why do you and others who support the official theory believe it is incumbent upon anyone to have a fully-fleshed out alternative simply because they ask questions about the official theory?

If you're here to defend the official account, then simply answer the questions asked of you, if you can. The only time you are entitled to ask a question is when someone submits an alternative theory. Since I haven't, you can damn well run along and pester someone else.

Originally posted by coughymachine
reply to post by jthomas

 

I do know that there exists an Official Government Edition of a Report you claim does not represent the official account of the events of 9/11.

Too bad the evidence is not a "story", isn't it?

Originally posted by coughymachine

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
reply to post by coughymachine

 

Stop with the silly simantics...

You stop right there. You're suggesting I stop with the silly semantics when I'm in a conversation with the King of Silly Semantics and Ultimate Thread-Killer/Derailer? No way.

Too bad you can't ever get around to refuting the evidence and want to pretend it's just a "story."

After reading all the posts on this thread, I'm forced to agree with the conclusion that the 911 Truth movement seems to be in bad shape.

To those of you who are STILL skeptical of the theory that the Official Version is not true, even with all of the 'smoking gun' evidence that is there to see if you bother to look at it with an open mind, I suggest you ask yourself what the risks are if you're wrong. If we 911 Truthers are wrong, then nothing much will happen but if you 911 Truth skeptics are wrong, we're ALL in serious trouble.

To those of us, who do see something horribly wrong with the Official Version, which by the way, has been the whole basis for the war in Afganistan and Iraq, and indirectly for the deaths of half a million people in those countries, I say 'let's stop nitpicking about the details'. What's important is getting at the truth AND PREVENTING ANOTHER FALSE FLAG EVENT!

In order to do that we need to focus our efforts on getting the mainstream media to pay attention to us. We need to get Congress or some other official body to set up a new, independent investigation, with maybe amnesty for whistleblowers, and we need to show the people behind 911 that this movement will not go away. A government should be afraid of the people, the people should not have to be afraid of their government.

I find it incredible that more than half of Americans think their government is not being honest about 911 and yet there aren't mass demonstrations. What will it take for people to get mad as hell and demand answers?

THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO! Arguing among ourselves only helps those who perpetrated this act of treason.

Let's use this thread to put forward suggestions on how the 911 Truth movement can get it's act together.

reply to post by coughymachine



Coughy... 6 years. You haven't formed an opinion yet? What are you waiting for?

If you have been doing research for 6 years, then you sir would be (As I am)100% certain that 911 was NOT an inside job.

reply to post by jthomas
We truthers have shown that the government needs to show us why they weren't complicit in the 9/11 attacks. The very fact that Bush would say in a speech, that we Americans shouldn't listen to the conspiracy theorists, tells me they are hiding something, if it's not true why, even acknowledge them?

I guess you believers have convinced me that not one, not two, not three, but all four "hijacked aircraft" could slip through the defenses of the United States of America, on the same day all without a single interception, is just a coincidence. Good Lord man, I'm going back to living in my little perfect world without a care.

But tomorrow gas will still be over three bucks per gallon and GHWB will still be best buddies with the BinLadens and osama bin laden will still be running free, or maybe he really will be, under Bush's desk, STILL NOT CHARGED in the 9/11 "attacks" pulled off by 19 hijackers that couldn't fly small planes, but could pull off maneuvers that pilots with thousands of hours flying those same type of planes said they would have trouble pulling off.

You go ahead and believe the governments lie, because they wouldn't do such a thing to it's own citizens to advance their agendas. You've convinced me.

Originally posted by jthomas
the burden of proof is on 9/11 Truthers' shoulders to demonstrate that the government is even a suspect in a crime

You sit there waiting for others to do the thinking for you. I'm not convinced you would even recognize a simple engineering proof, if it were presented to you (ie, understanding that collisions/torsion could not supply ~80% of the building masses with horizontal kinetic energy sufficient to ultimately send it out of the footprints and the collapse system, not to mention this majorly saps the theoretical total available PE to "drive" the collapse down). It's ok if you don't get it, because I still do. It just annoys me when you think I'm obligated to explain something to you just because you think it can't be done. If it can't, that's YOUR FAULT! Even toddlers can begin learning entire languages without having anything explained beforehand.

You don't have a case, you have a strong gut-feeling type of opinion and NIST and FEMA to point your finger at when you can, and you just fall back to them because you don't understand what they really assert. I know you don't because if you did you would not reference them as if they are authorities. Start with a clean slate. There is no "burden of proof." If there is, it is only on YOURSELF. No one is going very far out of their way to try to prove anything to you, because you're not that special. You're not going very far out of your way to prove the "official story" to me, are you? You were born with a brain, not just ears and eyes and a mouth (or fingers). Look at your own position before demanding proof from others. You don't even have what you ask for.

reply to post by saturnsrings


Saturn... you realize your entire post is filled with old recycled bunk? (besides the gas prices)

Please provide eveidence to your claims.

I've asked for suggestions on how to get mainstream media attention so here is a suggestion. Someone should organize a 'million man march' type of demonstration in (at the very least) Washington DC but also ideally in other major cities as well. The 4th of July would seem to me to be a good day to hold this event. I don't see how the media could ignore something like that.

Maybe a lot of ordinary people, who suspect or believe that they've been lied to by their government, really just need a venue to vent their outrage. Few people have the courage to demonstrate alone on something this controversial but it's a lot easier to demonstrate when you're part of a large group. So someone will have to step up to the plate and start organizing this. Sorry to say I'm not that brave.

Originally posted by Studenofhistory

I find it incredible that more than half of Americans think their government is not being honest about 911 and yet there aren't mass demonstrations. What will it take for people to get mad as hell and demand answers?

It's really as simple an answer as it was six years ago: you need to back up your claims and assertions with evidence.

Also, as long as you stick to the belief that, somehow, the "government" is a suspect and ignore the fact that the actual evidence is independent of the government and WHATEVER the government says, you will continue to ignore and refuse to refute the ACTUAL evidence.

The 9/11 Truth Movement is stuck in a myopic world where none of its fallacious premises are ever questioned by its own members. You just accept the fallacious reasoning that, somehow, the government is THE suspect, and MUST be guilty - somehow. As long as that continues, you'll all continue to stay stuck right where you are.

So, if you really think of getting anywhere, you're going to have to examine and actively question your own reasoning and premises.

It's entirely in your hands.

jthomas


The CIA is a murderous organization that has overthrown democratically elected gov's and killed many, the Joint Chiefs in the past plotted to commit crimes against innocent Cubans and Americans and US military.

They automatically becomes suspect, as any murderer would in a crime that he is near to.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
9/11 Truthers share one thing in common. Flawed scientific method with regards to what constitutes evidence to support a theory. They all share at least the belief that the official story couldn't be true. Some believe that it was an inside job. Some believe Bush wasn't directly involved but let us get attacked. Some believe other variations on those themes. None can come to an agreement on what happened, or how. Why is this? Because they first established a theory, and then have tried to work backwards to find evidence, to support their theory. If they can't find evidence, or evidence disproves their theory, they don't change their mind. They simply start working a different angle. They also share another trait- any attempt to discredit them is obviously the work of government disinfo agents, or by uninformed/unenlightened sheeple.
They turn a blind eye to huge logical flaws in some of the various theories, yet say it's up to non CTers to prove that what appeared to happen, did in fact happen, while refusing to prove what they're claiming to have happened, did in fact happen.

however the scientific method has not been used to illustrate in any manner worthy of the definition of 'proof' that the story presented by the media/government is true either.

I guess that just goes to show that people will believe what they want.

after all, it has been proven by forensic evidence that over a quarter of the people put to death in this country since 1979 were put to death wrongfully.

Originally posted by bsbray11
[Start with a clean slate. There is no "burden of proof." If there is, it is only on YOURSELF. No one is going very far out of their way to try to prove anything to you, because you're not that special.

You're not paying attention. I am not making claims against the evidence. YOU are.

You don't have to prove anything to me, nor do I have to prove anything to you. But, since it's quite clear that you and the 9/11 Truth Movement are making claims against the evidence and conclusions of the NIST report, than, of course, the burden of proof to support your claims rests entirely on your shoulders.

Until you understand that, we'll just keep waiting for you to do something!. After six years of waiting, we're getting rather bored and others are just laughing at the 9/11 Truth Movement.

Good luck!

Originally posted by talisman
jthomas


The CIA is a murderous organization that has overthrown democratically elected gov's and killed many, the Joint Chiefs in the past plotted to commit crimes against innocent Cubans and Americans and US military.

They automatically becomes suspect, as any murderer would in a crime that he is near to.

Good luck "selling" that reasoning.

Jthomas, I'd like to clear up a misconception you have of me and I think most if not all other 911 Truthers. I didn't wake up one day and say 'I think I feel like suspecting the Government of instigating 911' just for the hell of it. At first I was skeptical of the 'inside job' theory. Then I did what everyone should do. I LOOKED AT THE EVIDENCE!!!!! HAVE YOU????? I'm not even going to try to list it all here. Suffice it to say that I RELUCTANTLY came to the conclusion that rogue elements within the Executive Branch, Military and Intelligence communities conspired to make sure that people died on 911. I understand that this conclusion may be so horrible that some decent, honest citizens will refuse to accept the possibility. IF you have honestly looked at all the evidence that's available on the various 911 Truth websites, and you still think there's nothing fishy going on with the Official Version, then you are part of a VERY tiny minority!

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Coughy... 6 years. You haven't formed an opinion yet? What are you waiting for?

For how many years did people think the world was flat, again?

Or that the Sun was literally on fire (oxidizing)?


Maybe he's actually waiting to determine certain facts, so he can make his mind up? And not feed his gut with feelings based on others' opinions and a quick weakness for authority and peer pressure, that I see in others. Why such a sense of "hurry," after 6 years with so little since answered?

"Debunkers" must be in such bad moods all the time because they don't understand what roots us "truthers," to put such crazy ideas before others without having to feel low, ashamed, trash, embarrassed. You may never understand why we do it without embarrassment, and your sarcasm only irritates us. We are our own rocks. It's others who are to be embarrassed for their opinions, because their opinions aren't truly their own and so they don't understand them. We are the recurring historical cult that truly understands the world before the still-blind masses read about it decades and centuries later.

[edit on 16-3-2008 by bsbray11]