What created god?

I think I have read a lot of creationism to ask this question

does anyone have a good answer that can explain it?

I've heard Creationists explain it by saying that God "always was", so he always existed, therefor not needing to be created.

Which sounds about as silly as it gets, but then we're dealing with Creationism here

Mankind can not even truly percieve "The Creator". Such questions are cop-outs on trying to percieve God.

Men who want to believe they are the biggest thinking power around see very small.

Mankind should work first on understanding being created before even trying to pretend they can think about the creator.

Lets us say that the God of God created God. Then, who created the God that created God? we could go forever, but the conclusion is that something MUST exist without being created or nothing exists at all. The creationists would say that God is this final cause that does not need a creator. Evolutionists would say we are the ones existing without a creator. You pick your side now . I would go with a higher power as I do not see myself as the ultimate cause of everything.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by sty]

you ask, What Created God?


G0d is the product of the collaboration of our right-brain and our left-brain ...


man's brain thinking is dualistic, and a common ground had to be conceived, and men became conscious of a 'God' that was there
all along

Originally posted by Dark_Ace
does anyone have a good answer that can explain it?

Yes, but peeps don't like the answer.

If you think God is a single entity that created everything, then you will not get a satisfactory answer.

If you believe the things that the MSM or religions tell you, you will also be unlikely to get a satisfactory answer.

In other words, you have to change the parameters in order for the answer to make any sense. It is these parameters that people do not generally like to change, at least, most find any change of those starting parameters to be preposterous so they don't go there and thus the question cannot be answered.

I think in a way, we created God because God is an idea and ideas are created by thoughts. Anything that is a thought, exists. It may not exist physically in this universe, but it exists in your own universe that you created tied to this one. It's tied to this universe because we exist in this universe and the thought itself links you with what you are thinking about. I believe there is an infinite number of thoughts and universes since thoughts create universes and universes create thoughts. What came first? I don't know but to me it seems that thoughts came first since you can't kill an non-physical idea, but you can destroy a physical universe.

reply to post by Incarnated


How can we understand God? The book he wrote contradicts itself and sends very mixed messages about him.

I think the point of the question is to answer the creator paradox in "Creation Science" - not a full-out religious debate.

The basic premise is this

Creationism claims it is a scientific field.
Creationism posits that all living beings were "created."
This creator, by the act of creating, is a living being.
Thus, hte creator demands a creator. Who also demands a creator, so on and so forth.
And since these creators are actual, measurable beings (science, remember!) the entirity of the universe would be filled to the absolute brim with them. Even beyond the universe.

I haven't been swimming through creators, have you?

Originally posted by Dark_Ace
I think I have read a lot of creationism to ask this question
does anyone have a good answer that can explain it?

You need to define God in order to reasonably debate the issue, and there is no good definition.

That being said, the problem is in falsely seeing time as always moving only in one direction. Time doesn't necessarily work that way. The key is to understand that "effect" does not always follow "cause," and that sometimes that what we define as the past is directly influenced by actions in present and future.

Consciousness, big and small and individual and combined, works on a quantum level and in multiple dimensions to define reality from an infinite number of possible virtual states.

I suspect that is the answer.

Maybe it just started out as the universe untill it became aware of itself? After that it started experimenting on itself and now we are here.

Not in the way like a bearded man creating but just setting things in a way we could exist like we do.

Or just what Nohup said, could be.

reply to post by Harman


It's as if the cells in my body are asking who created them...

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Creationism posits that all living beings were "created."
This creator, by the act of creating, is a living being.

No, the creator does not need to have a creator, which needs a creator, etc. Infinite recursion does not exist in our reality. It's impossible. It works in theory with numbers, but not in reality with actual objects. For instance I can prove quite easily that the Universe did not have an infinite past.

Let X be some point in the infinite past.
Let Y be the current time (As you read this)

(Infinite Past)----------Y (Now)

If there were an infinite past I could split that into as many infinite pasts as I choose to since dividing infinity would result in two infinities. Given two infinite amounts of time there must be some point between them. (X)

(Infinite Past)-----X-----(Infinite Past)----Y

How do you travel from point X in the past to point Y (Now)? It's impossible because an infinity of time would need to occur before we reached point Y. That is to say that now would never happen because we would have to wait for an eternal amount of time to pass.

There's you proof that the Universe has a definite beginning. Anything with a beginning has a cause. But wait, we're talking about 4 dimensions here. What if there were a being that had extra dimensions?

Enter the creator, the uncaused being who has no beginning. This creator has no beginning because he(it) exists in all possible dimensions at once. All possible options at all possible times, in all possible galaxies. Yes, the Universe is a static image to the creator. It doesn't move or change. There is no time for this being, it simply exists. There is no beginning, no end.

Basically this concept is ouside of our ability to grasp but essentially, since God exists outside of time it's not relevant to ask "when" or any time question in relation to this being. When is only relevant to created items in the Universe.

Originally posted by dbates

Nice post dbates. To put it another way, are we saying that time itself is a human concept which does not apply to any creator figure, who therefore cannot be measured by it? Does that mean that time is a dimension relevant only to us - in which case, does it follow that all other dimensions are of relevant only to us, and consequently, the creator exists outside space, time and, er... the other dimensions? Indeed the creator is non-dimensional?

Genuinely makes my brain hurt.

LW

It is easy to oppose a thought or theory based on human opinions. But does it answer anything? Or does it change reality?

We would have to ask the question: where did everything originate from (including matter to thoughts)? If we look to the human species to animal species we can see that there is a beginning and an end. God says he is the alpha and the omega - the beginning and the ending. In our system of the universe I believe that is a reality. He is OUR beginning and ending.

What of other aspects or areas of the universe? Could he actually be a member of a collective group or family that judges or rules over their selected areas? Could he be a member perhaps a younger member of a universal family of which he is a part of?

I ask this because it is something that I have given a great deal of thought. If one reads the Bible you can see a definite shift in his growth or personality as the Bible progresses forward. It seems as though he was a "new" parent in the beginning (if one believes the creation account). He seems to age as he deals with the characters long after Adam & Eve. It shows in how he deals with mankind later.

The question may be asked; if it is a reality that God exists and not a religious illusion, (denial will not make it go away) then what are we missing? What links are we not quite getting? What areas are religions wrong?

I find it fascinating to not be fearful to ask and then look for possible answers that the majority are too uncomfortable to ask or too uncomfortable to even look at. I appreciated some of the previous posts!

Matrix Prophet

reply to post by LoneWeasel

Non-dimensional, ultra-dimensional, or something of that nature. I don't know if you would say that time isn't relevant to the creator, but that it's not a hurdle. The creator can move through time as easily as you can walk across the room. Time is a line to us that goes in one direction. So say we're in a raft on a river that is running in one direction. We only see the part that we're currently on. The creator would see all points of the river at the same time. And of course (due to being ultra dimensional) the creator could not only see, but also be at all points of the river at the same time.

That will make your head hurt.

Originally posted by dbates
Basically this concept is ouside of our ability to grasp but essentially, since God exists outside of time it's not relevant to ask "when" or any time question in relation to this being. When is only relevant to created items in the Universe.

I'm thinking of time as expanding within a recursive form like a Klein Bottle, but along a number of other more discrete dimensions that are obviously a little hard to show in a 3-dimensional image.



And what's ultimately driving this is basically... us. Our larger consciousness, as well as the consciousness of every cell in our bodies, in every body, in every living thing, here and wherever life may exist in the universe. All working together to stabilize reality from virtuality with their points of view.

Of course, this is not exactly the same notion of a happy, loving Grandpa God that children are taught in Sunday school. It's more like a Gnostic Christian interpretation of the Creator God (not the false God, Saklas, in the Bible), where there is this thing that is not a thing that is practically infinite and completely incomprehensible to the human mind. Therefore, it's not as emotionally satisfying. But hey. What are you gonna do?

I wonder if these debates would go on if Christianity DID NOT assume that those who do not accept Jesus do goto hell.

It's kind of like a childish club, calling everyone who are not members a mean name in order to unite them under the club leader who can influence everyone. I suppose the Pope is the headmaster of the club.

Originally posted by Nohup
And what's ultimately driving this is basically... us. Our larger consciousness, as well as the consciousness of every cell in our bodies, in every body, in every living thing, here and wherever life may exist in the universe. All working together to stabilize reality from virtuality with their points of view.

I'm never happy with the mankind as a driving force argument, somehow. It just seems to give us an unlikely relevance and power, however passive our role in it, when all the immediate evidence (the physical size of the universe, our influence and reach within that universe) seems to suggest quite the opposite.

LW

Originally posted by dbates
The creator would see all points of the river at the same time. And of course (due to being ultra dimensional) the creator could not only see, but also be at all points of the river at the same time.

Or look at it in terms of "points of view." We all have our individual points of view. Where we live behind our eyeballs. But every living thing in the universe has a point of view, too, including every little cell in a blade of grass or a bacteria clinging to a piece of foil on the Mars Rover. Every living thing.

Imagine, then, what it would be like to see from somebody else's point of view. Like a Vulcan mind meld. One consciousness, two points of view. Now expand that to include every living thing in the universe. One consciousness seeing from all points of view at the same "time," simultaneously collapsing the associated quantum wave functions through observation, forward, backward, and sideways through time -- since quantum events are not temporally dependent.

Something like that.

That will make your head hurt.

You got that right. We don't have the necessary brains to do it. All we can do is approximate it with some fancy math or extremely weak analogy. So the seemingly simple Sunday school notions of "God" and "creation" ultimately make no damn sense at all to us, and the question becomes impossible to answer.