How can you tell Right from Wrong Evolutionists?

The thing I find interesting is, generally before Christianity is introduced to a people, they get one fairly well. They have problems, but for the most part their morals are good, and are generally thought of as fairly honest by later people. Then the Christians come along, call them heathens, steal their land, take whatever they want, and then a few generations or so later, they apologize. The people's culture is destroyed and they are generally scattered. not saying the culture was perfect, but Christianity generally forces itself wherever it wants with no qualms about what's there already.

Speaking as someone who believes in God and evolution, I don't see them as completely exclusive. The problem is people seem to think they can't be mixed, but that view is severely limiting, to me anyway. We can't pretend to know everything about God, we were given some rules that for the most part are tolerable by everyone, and some good stories to tell as a way to understand life. Which is good. We don't know what God's plan is, that's the whole, "ineffable" part. So we really only know some of it.

But, let's take this from a black or white sort of view, since that's what's being presented. With no God, how could morals come about? Well, stealing from a person would make that person angry, and probably cause a fight between the thief and the person who was robbed. Seriously, if you steal something from someone, you expect them to be ticked right? We are taught not to steal, because we don't want to be robbed either. (Rip what you sow, eh?) Murder? Look, kill someone hated it'll generally blow over fairly quickly. Kill someone loved or respected, all hell breaks loose. Then the family and friends of the victim take up arms against you and your own. Not a good situation to be in, right? Besides, like I said, we don't want to be killed either, so we would want others to not be inclined to kill.

Think of it in terms of tribes or groups of people. You need to be able to work together, based on what enables you to survive and work together. You can't have thieves, murderers, whatever else as group and expect them to be able to work together for a long period of time. (Evil contains the roots of it's own destruction, right?)

I truly hope the OP is not posting to bait people into a religious debate, and if so I'm sorry I'm biting.

That said. How can one assume we have a creator? just because we are morally capable of knowing right from wrong does not require us to know of a creator being (or worship them for that matter).

As an odd form of Christian, I wanted to make sure the OP had noted that the bible does state that god gave us free will. So using logic it is really our free will that determines our actions (read social, and familial morals). This Free Will is what steers us towards right or wrong.

To claim that a creator is required to believe in right and wrong is fairly ludicrous. Why? because humans had legal codes (read moral codes) long before Christian's existed, and likely before Judaic beliefs were wide spread. This alone proves that "people with belief in a creator being" are not the reason for moral knowledge.

further proof would be the fact that the Buddhist and Hindi Faiths (which do not believe in a "creator god") both having the moral beliefs of yin-yang and Karmatic cycles. I understand where you are going OP... But the base idea is a little skewed.





Coven

reply to post by theindependentjournal


if there is a ` universal code ` of right and wrong - please explain why :


the dyak head hunters of borneo - consider killing / eating thier enemies percectly propper behaviour

some sects of bhuddists practice canibalism - eating thier deceased bretheren

the spartan and athenian city states had moral codes that would be seen as repulsive today

the concept that slavery is wrong is a modern notion - which spread into western culture from the pioneering philosophy of equal rights championed by men like wilberforce

PS - the old testement promotes slavery and does not condem human sacrifice

where is this absolute moral code ???

morality is the concencus of the society - it is learnt , not hard wired

[edit on 11-3-2008 by ignorant_ape]

Ok i believe in evolution but that doesn't mean i don't believe in god so lets cler that one right up.

I don't go raping people, i have never killed anyone, i don't steal or beat up old ladies in the street. Why don't i do these things? Because my own moral code which i got from my parents and those around me prevents me from doing so.

This is without a doubt the most stupid question i have ever heard, you are trying to make evolution sound like anyone who believes in it must be a marauding danger to all around them.

So how about this one matey, the bible your lovely little book has numerous examples of advising it's followers to KILL people. Any women who cheats shoudl apparently be stoned to death as should disobedient children. If you aren't doing these things then you are not following the bible.

Christianity is inherently violent if you read the bible literally, what seems to happen is people read it and temper the directions with what they believe to be correct in regards to how they should treat people. The idea of right and wrong has changed throughout history. Christians used to stone people, how come this doesn't happen now? Oh right we decided it was wrong and cruel.

You are also assuming your god has the correct code, i find it laughable that each religion assumes they are correct. I don't base my morals on any religion, i base them on putting myself in another persons shoes. If i wouldn't like something done to me, i don't do it to others.

Edit

It's my true belief that the OP is trying to cause trouble, but hey it's always good to rip such thinking apart.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by theindependentjournal
I don't think it's very honest to assume if someone is an evolutionist, they are not religious, or don't even have moral fiber. This is a very strong statement, indeed.


Evolution is a statement of observations in nature. They are the things which we observe everyday, the changes in breeds of dogs, mutations of virues and bacteria, even at a molecular level the physics are the same, the foundation of everything technological, in existance, can be related to it.

This theory in no way shape or form, on a singular level, attempts to explain the beggining of all things. The big bang theory was built as a result of evolutionary study, but it is not even offered as a solution to deny the Religious claims to the origins of man. The theory man evolved from apes is not a surefire theory, it may change later(it's actually genetic studies whichled to these findings. There are new theories in plate techtonics which may change the opinion on continental drift. That's what science is, as it evolves, it's theories and knowledge evolve and our current evolutionary path is driven by this currently.

Alot of scientists feel they are examining the work of god and not denying Him. Einstein was known to believe he thought he was following the footprints of god. I believe in divine evolution, that's my choice, I believe in a world where we don't have to argue about religion on A.T.S.
I like looking at things from an ultimately subjective view, civility isn't really that hard!

I can tell right from wrong becuase I have some common sense. I know that it is wrong for me to hurt someone,as I wouldn't like to be hurt myself. I know it is wrong to steal from someone,becuase I know that I wouldn't like it if someone stole from me.

I don't need a book to tell me that.

[edit on 11/3/2008 by Acidtastic]

Originally posted by dizziedame
What is it that causes some to disbelieve? Is it fear, ego, arrogance, or defiance against authority?

It's common sense. I don't usually get riled up about things, but nothing makes me fume quite like the narrow views of the force-fed-dogma religious arrogant. Let me lay it out for you because seriously, I'm tired of this broken-record approach that always seems to be a favored tactic of you people.

Let's examine your obviously well thought out statement here, which I can tell right now is born of ignorance, unwillingness to understand or even consider, and a bit of superiority tossed in for good measure. Do me a favor, and stop and think about what you're claiming here. "Evolutionists don't believe in a god because they:"

a) Fear him. That doesn't even make sense. How can we fear something we don't believe in? Seriously? Do you lose sleep at night worrying about the six-toed pink pygmy buffalo that rummage through your back yard every time your eyes close? No? Well gee, I wonder why that is. Probably because you don't believe in patently ridiculous things, and therefore don't fear them.

or because of

b) Ego. Arrogance. Defiance. Right. If there was an all powerful being out there, that we know, deep in our devious lying hearts, actually exists, the best we can come up with in terms of saying "no, there's no such thing" is that we're too proud to admit we're not the biggest thing out there? How stupid is that? Really? According to you, this thing is capable of burning us alive for all of eternity. So the most logical conclusion then is to just think we're better than it is? Really? That's what you're going with? I shouldn't have to tell you how completely ridiculous that idea is. I really shouldn't.

This is very simple but if we evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys? If we evolved from amoebas why are there still amoebas?
Are we still evolving? Has mans physical body changed in the past 2,000 years?

How many times does this question need to be addressed? Is there no search function on this forum? Is this question not answered every week around here? Really? Well, in case you missed it the last 1300 times it's been brought up, there are still monkeys because we did not evolve from monkeys. Write it down if you need to, please. If you're going to attempt to construct an argument against something, try researching it for maybe more than 27 seconds. You have the whole wealth of human knowledge at your fingertips, yet you insist on dragging the same worn-out, tired misconceptions through here like you think nobody has thought of something near as brilliant as it before. I can't express how poorly this makes your entire stab at debate look. I seriously can't.

Aside: Yes, we have evolved in the last 2000 years. On average, we are taller and slighter than we were two thousand years ago. And *gasp* we have proof of it, too.

I am a believer and stand firm with you OP. Get ready to be flamed. I just wish folks would not be so hateful when disagreeing with a poster. A salute to your bravery OP.

Funny how when you jab us with ignorance sticks you're surprised that we react the way we do. Stand beside him bravely because he started a purposefully baiting thread. Go ahead. Just know that your facade of superiority and self-righteousness is as transparent as glass to the people you're trying to provoke. It's a tired game, and really, this forum is suffering because of it.

Now go ahead and flame me like I know you're itching to do. Go ahead and do it. That's what this is about, isn't it? It can't be about pursuing the truth or denying ignorance, because ignorance is what this thread was born of.

reply to post by theindependentjournal

I have a question for all the Evolution believers, and I call you that cause it is a belief and clearly not a science.

The same can be said for Creationism, except it has much less physical evidence supporting it.

If evolution is correct how do you know right from wrong? If evolution is correct would it not be ok to rape and kill those weaker than you? Survival of the fittest and all. If evolution is correct is it not right for America to conquer the world militarily and do away with all that Bush or whomever feels is inferior and detrimental to the gene pool? This was Hitler's philosophy from the start,rid mankind of the "lower" or "less evolved" humans and give evolution a jumpstart. Tell me where he is wrong if evolution and survival of the fittest is the Law?

You act as if Humans are ravaging beasts, gnawing and hacking at anything that breathes. You act like humans have no emotion but anger, and we are capable of nothing but destruction. Of COURSE it isn't okay to rape, or to murder. No one (sane) claims that it is! Humanity is able to make its own choices, and follow by common sense and morals. We know from the time we are able to critically think that it isn't okay to rape, or to murder. We will never need a fictional book to help us understand that.

Tell me how one should know, or in fact that it is wrong to hurt, steal, kill, and the many other things we KNOW to be wrong if evolution is correct?

I answered this above, common sense and respect. Sure isn't some text in a 3000 year old book.

But if you were Created by God then we know the rules and we know Right from Wrong because it is inherent in us as God has placed it in all mens hearts.

Is that so? All man's hearts? Explain to me then the radical islamists. Explain to me the shooting and raping that occurs everyday in America? If God has given us all the knowledge of right from wrong, why does it not curb violence?

If you claim that Law comes from man then I would respond that Hitler was Elected and Passed Laws and therefore did nothing wrong to the evolutionists.

... what? Hitler was a form of creationist as well as evolutionist. Hitler believed god created the world and that people were here from the very beginning. en.wikipedia.org...

I would also say that if man can make laws he can change them to, whereas my LORD NEVER CHANGES

www.christiancourier.com...

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
I have a question for all the Evolution believers, and I call you that cause it is a belief and clearly not a science. If evolution is correct how do you know right from wrong? If evolution is correct would it not be ok to rape and kill those weaker than you? Survival of the fittest and all. If evolution is correct is it not right for America to conquer the world militarily and do away with all that Bush or whomever feels is inferior and detrimental to the gene pool? This was Hitler's philosophy from the start,rid mankind of the "lower" or "less evolved" humans and give evolution a jumpstart. Tell me where he is wrong if evolution and survival of the fittest is the Law?

Tell me how one should know, or in fact that it is wrong to hurt, steal, kill, and the many other things we KNOW to be wrong if evolution is correct? If you came from a rock 3BYA I would say do whatever you want to whomever you want, for there are no rules. But if you were Created by God then we know the rules and we know Right from Wrong because it is inherent in us as God has placed it in all mens hearts.

So simply enough, how do you know right from wrong if there is no Creator and no Law from that Creator. If you claim that Law comes from man then I would respond that Hitler was Elected and Passed Laws and therefore did nothing wrong to the evolutionists. I would also say that if man can make laws he can change them to, whereas my LORD NEVER CHANGES

Staggering.

Just how selfish are religious people? Are you saying the only reason you don't kill people is because God will send you to Hell if you do? You fear the punishment, and so you do not commit the crime? This means you are acting in the interests of you alone, and noone else.

Humans are fantastic. We are great. We mananged to take an uncaring, unsypathetic universe that is based around the weak conquering the strong, and managed to invent abstract concepts like love, kindness, compassion, law, respect etc, things that did not exist before and have no physical quality nor measurable amount.

These things then became the most important things a human can possess, the basis for the function of our societies and the daily social interactions we experience. Without them, we couldn't exist as we do.

So what does this mean? This means, we should ask WHY we do not do things that, by all physical rights, we can do with impunity. Why don't I rape children? Why don't I cripple pets? Why don't I torch my annoying neighbours house while his entire family is in it?

I do not do these things because I am compassionate. I think "how would I feel if someone had walked up and punched me? how would I like it if someone came up and killed me?" and you know what? I find I don't like the answer to those questions one little bit. I don't like the image of my mother crying over my grave, weeping for the loss of her only son because of the selfish actions of someone else. I don't like the idea of transposing that image onto that of someone else's mother crying over their grave because of my selfish actions.

When I do something for another, I do it for the knowledge that it has improved their fleeting time on this earth, not to earn brownie points with some great parental guilt icon.

Honestly, people like you scare me. You scare me because, one day, there may not be people like me to tell you to balance out the scales.


Read this:

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
I have a question for all the Evolution believers, and I call you that cause it is a belief and clearly not a science. If evolution is correct how do you know right from wrong? If evolution is correct would it not be ok to rape and kill those weaker than you?

quoted above is all i read and all i'm going to read.
you obviousaly don't understand evolution. evolution is a scientific theory, scientific theories aren't proven "right or wrong", science doesn't deal with "right and wrongs" when labellings their theories. what they do do is collect data then try and make sense of it. for example, this data SUPPORTS the theory of evolution, opposed to "means evolution is correct".

what do you mean by saying "evolution is a belief" and clearly not a science. science is belief based on rational assumption, you CLEARLY have little understanding of what science really is, this is coming from someone with scientific background.

knowing right from wrong? you obviousaly havn't been educated in the scientific explanations of morality. i doubt you will look it up because you probably to stubbon.

science isn't just "belief". its belief based on DATA, its beliefs that follow a rational thought pattern, and are backed up by previous studies and other current theories. religion/creationism on the other hand is just based purely on faith, its a belief NOT based on rationality.

it amazes me how people can have such strong beliefs against something when they understand little about it.

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
the dyak head hunters of borneo - consider killing / eating thier enemies percectly propper behaviour

FYI they don't do that anymore; it's against Malaysian law.

/off topic out

Carry on.

the thread title.. I tried to repond to this thread days ago but gave up shaking my head in disbelief [atheist joke ]. Not only is it offensively ignorant.. [there are plenty of christians who accept ToE] ..but even the title is prejudiced.. assuming all 'evolutionists' are immoral. This is where I get worried as even Jesus was meant to have preached against it.. yet the op STILL couldn't tell this wrong from right despite taking issue with others on the subject.

Of course thats just me stating the obvious but I'm guessing the OP needs to have this hypocricy pointed out so he/she can evolve into a more moral person..

Originally posted by dizziedame
reply to post by Choronzon

 

What???? You believe humans are born with social values?

Social values are a learned behavior. At birth we have no values.

Our values are learned from family and outside influences.

Dizzie

Very well said and has Nothing to do with religious morals. You know the morals that destroyed the North and South America Indian, and culture, the morals that held a convert or die mentality for over a thousand years. Thank god for moral people like the BTK killer, and other's, funny there was no divine intervention in the way these people acted.

Besides if you did start eating babies and raping people, all you would have to do is ask for forgiveness, then all will be forgiven.

Why are Christians so prideful [sin] as a group, why do they portray themselves as holier than thou, when in the end they are only human, and there is so little evidence of anything divine about there lives.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by LDragonFire]

reply to post by LDragonFire


Because if someone tells you you're going to heaven, and if someone's died for your sins, you can do pretty much whatever you want.

You know what scares me the most. The people who are only held together by biblical values. The people who do not kill, murder, rape, steal, etc because a book tells them not too!!

These are the people who crack and lose their sanity, and go no murduring sprees. They could be your next door neighbor.

If it's not flamingly obvious to you that you should not rape, murder, steal, etc, you are already broken....sorry.

Okay, I'll answer.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
I have a question for all the Evolution believers, and I call you that cause it is a belief and clearly not a science.

What's your definition of "a science"? Not just a list of things or things you don't like -- what makes something a science and what makes something a belief.

If evolution is correct how do you know right from wrong?

Survival of the best adapted to the environment has nothing to do with morality.

If evolution is correct would it not be ok to rape and kill those weaker than you?

No, and in fact that strategy would lead to a quick demise of the species unless the females of the species happened to give birth to hundreds of babies at several times over their lives (as in spiders.) Then a better evolutionary strategy is to prey on the weaker so that the stronger can survive.

So for most vertebrates, that's a "losing" strategy for a species. The winning strategy is to protect even the weaker members of the herd and to not kill them. Most mating battles, for example, are NOT "to the death."

If evolution is correct is it not right for America to conquer the world militarily and do away with all that Bush or whomever feels is inferior and detrimental to the gene pool?

That wouldn't be evolution, actually, because it has nothing to do with adaptation. Bush *could* do that politically, but within his own country people would still be evolving and adapting. Politics is different from evolution.

This was Hitler's philosophy from the start,rid mankind of the "lower" or "less evolved" humans and give evolution a jumpstart. Tell me where he is wrong if evolution and survival of the fittest is the Law?

Racism has nothing to do with evolution. Racism is political -- branding another group as inferior has nothing to do with survival of the fittest and the passing along of genes. People have used it as an excuse, but racism is a social and politcal mechanism.

Tell me how one should know, or in fact that it is wrong to hurt, steal, kill, and the many other things we KNOW to be wrong if evolution is correct?

Actually, all creatures that live together in groups (from ants to humans) have "rules of the nest" or "rules of the group" and the others obey them or are killed. Wolves punish other pack members who steal food, elephants don't hurt each other and will protect each other, etc, etc. Even primitive humans do this... so do chimps and gorillas and bonobos and all the other primates.

These rules are hard-wired into us by evolution because without them we can't live in groups.

I would also say that if man can make laws he can change them to, whereas my LORD NEVER CHANGES

Let me just point you to some Bible verses where your deity does just that -- relents, repents, or changes his mind or is frustrated with his own decision (I'm presuming you're Christian):
Jonah 3:10
Exodus 32:14
Genesis 6:6
Samuel 15:11
Psalm 106:45
Hosea 11:8
Joel 2:13.

I do love old Abraham talking to God's "angels" before Soddom and Gomorrah.

"But...but what if there are ten good men there?"
"Fine, fine."
"But, my Lord, what if there are-"
"Enough, Abraham!"

God gets nagged like an old woman.

Original Sanctity

Originally posted by dizziedame

 

What???? You believe humans are born with social values?

Social values are a learned behavior. At birth we have no values.

Our values are learned from family and outside influences.

I beg to differ.

The prototypical social values we are born with are called instincts. A newborn infant is preprogrammed to bond with its mother -- just as the mother is programmed to bond with the child. The child's propensity to form other social bonds, with the father, with other in-group adults and peers -- is similarly programmed, part of the brain's operating system (or possibly a 'bundled application').

Also programmed, as we learn from some fascinating recent research in linguistics and evolutionary psychology, is the social wherewithal to form and maintain these bonds -- concepts of reciprocity and exchange, altruistic impulses whose strength is in proportion to the genetic relatedness and possibly the perceived status of the beneficiary, even concepts of fairness and punishment. Empathy is likewise built into us, courtesy of a class of brain cells called 'mirror neurons'.

And above all, of course, in humans, the unique operating software that allows us to acquire and deploy language.

These are the elements from which experience (social conditioning, if you prefer) builds our moral values. Religion has, traditionally, a place in that spectrum of experience. It is part of the social conditioning that builds values in nearly all human cultures. To this extent the OP is correct.

But the value of religion in promoting morality is founded on a disturbing assumption: that people are too stupid to work out right and wrong for themselves, and therefore need to have it explained to them in fairly explicit detail and driven home with awful threats of punishment for getting it wrong. Now, this assumption of widespread stupidity may be true for all I know (there seems to be a lot of evidence for it...) but you have to admit it is a little demeaning. A God who gave humankind free will must surely have had more trust in our ability to discern right and wrong for ourselves, and to act accordingly -- if that trust was then betrayed (apples and serpents and the rest of the Miltonian palaver), that doesn't say much for His omniscience. There are better ways to teach little children children and adults right from wrong than to frighten them with such tales. The Book of Job, in particular, makes one shudder. What God is this?

Besides, religious dogma never works as well as well-developed and properly understood natural morality, because its prescriptive nature makes it relatively inflexible. Islamic jurisprudence offers a good example of this: the endless ramifications of hadith and fiqh attempt to codify every situation, every transgression. Futile and dangerous. There are equivalent examples in Christianity, as in all faiths. This is how religions that preach love come to practise hate.

[edit on 21-3-2008 by Astyanax]

I can tell right from wrong becuase I have some common sense. I know that it is wrong for me to hurt someone,as I wouldn't like to be hurt myself. I know it is wrong to steal from someone,becuase I know that I wouldn't like it if someone stole from me.

this may by true, however, some people dont think like this. people who believe in evolution, natural selection and survival of the fittest think that they have to do whatever they can to get ahead. meaning they really dont care. some people dont want to be loved because they hate the world so therefore by your logic they assume that some other people dont want to be loved.. following this logic leads to stealing and murder and whatnot.

and I havent seen and original question answered.
if Evolution is true, how do you decide what is right from wrong? what standard do we go by? common sense is not a standard, if it was everyone would have it, not just some of us.

Originally posted by Methuselah
this may by true, however, some people dont think like this. people who believe in evolution, natural selection and survival of the fittest think that they have to do whatever they can to get ahead. meaning they really dont care. some people dont want to be loved because they hate the world so therefore by your logic they assume that some other people dont want to be loved.. following this logic leads to stealing and murder and whatnot.

Yet another biggoted generalisation that people who accept ToE [natural selection etc] have no principles beyond self preservasion and are more likely to kill people than 'chistian' creationists.

*yawn*

This has been proven to be a lie time and time again yet some people refuse to believe that 'evolutionists' aren't inherently immoral. Why?

God had to have an enemy to "defend against".

"Onward christian soldiers.. "

[edit on 30-3-2008 by riley]