G.I.Jane vs Rendition...Hollywood vs Reality...Training vs Torture...WATERBOARDING

I am assuming everyone here has seen the movie "G.I. Jane" by now and that most who have seen it know there is a scene where Demi Moore's character is being held down to simulate waterboarding as a means of training during S.E.R.E. school so as to know how to cope with torture techinques if captured by the enemy. If you have not, the first link here is that exact scene. If you are not accustomed to seeing scenes of realistic torture I suggest you do not view it or skip past it to the rest of this thread.

YouTube - Waterboarding Video - G.I. Jane

I could not find a scene from the movie "Rendition" to put on here and I am not uploading it from My copy of the movie. Sorry, not getting into trouble for copyright infringement along with all of the other things I'm sure will be heaped on Me. I did however find a good video from YouTube showing waterboarding and it's concepts. If you are not accustomed to seeing scenes of realistic torture I suggest you do not view it or skip past it to the rest of this thread.


YouTube - Waterboarding Video

This next YouTube video is Mukasey being a typical politician in dodging a direct answer with a vague non-commital answer about waterboarding being constitutional.

YouTube - Waterboarding

Here is Wikipedia's definition of waterboarding. Knowing that Wikipedia defines waterboarding through that it is a website created by average people should point you in the right direction but it is your decision to make and your opinion of course.

Wikipedia - Waterboarding

The reason I started this thread is that I wanted to get a feel for who here on ATS agrees and or disagrees with waterboarding in principle, whether it is torture or not, and whether you think it should be done as a training technique to prepare our soldiers for the possiblity of it being done on them or not or whether the C.I.A. should do it after shipping "terrorism suspects", "people of interest", or whatever catch-phrase of the day they label the kidnapped through the "extra-ordinary rendition program" overseas.

For the record I have not now nor have I ever been witness/participant to an actual waterboarding session and yes I do realize that the movies "G.I. Jane" and "Rendition" are Hollywood movies. The problem is that Hollywood can make movies seem realistic but until you have actually seen or been through the event yourself you will never truly be able to say you understand it completely 100%. I understand the concept and nature of waterboarding and I can say the same for torture in a general sense of the word.

As I understand it though these movie portrayals of the actual torture of waterboarding are more than likely tame compared to the actual technique in that a torturer is not going to be nice in any way, shape, or form. This person will be punching the person in the stomach so that they can not breath which will force them to suck in the water being poured down their throat to make that person panic even more. It's all a part of the torture technique in that the person being tortured has to believe they are actually going to drown if they do not cooperate.

Below is a link to Wikipedia link to the definition of Extraordinary Rendition, in case you didn't know what all the the hub-bub was about in the news about this type of event.

Wikipedia - Extraordinary Rendition

From what I understand waterboarding is kind of like the offspring of the formely most heinous of torture techniques called "Chinese Water Torture" which is where water was dripped onto a victim's head until they either talked or went insane.

Here's a Wikipedia link for that definition :

Wikipedia - Chinese Water Torture

So, do you think that anyone should be trained or tortured utilizing waterboarding? Do you think Mukasey or any politician for that matter should condone such activity? Do you even have an opinion on this matter?

You see I understand that a terrorist is a bad person bent on naughty actions in order to create terror. If we as citizens condone what our government does are we not as evil as the terrorist who would commit it to us? Yes, I understand that a terrorist is a terrible person. Yes, I understand that they would do it to us if they had the option and I am sure they have done it in the past or else the C.I.A. would never have initiated the action to begin with.

You see torture as a monsterous action, correct? Are not people committing it in the sense of gaining intelligence to assist in keeping other people alive still acting the part of the monster? What does using a monster's tool do but create yet another monster. You can not create a monster to fight a monster without having two monster's where there was originally one. I'm curious to see people opinions and answers along with their viewpoints on this topic.

I understand training in order to be preventative in nature so that people know what to expect. I understand doing any action to obtain intelligence in order to save lives. I understand that using any means to gain an advantage on the enemy will mean saving lives and hopefully keep the peace within a region or nation.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

[edit on 6-3-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Okay, so some of you are wondering why I posted this in PTS and why in Slug-Fest, and I will tell you now. The reason for it being posted to PTS and not ATS or even BTS is simple. It's because the action of waterboarding is in the realm of politics through government denial of action.

The action of kidnapping a person who is a "known terrorist" is something the C.I.A. has to be sanctioned to do, or even do it without knowledge of the government so that the fail-safe "plausible deniability" comes into play when and if the C.I.A. is caught in the act so that the government can deny any knowledge of this "horrendous action" (insert your own brand of sarcasm there, because that doesn't wash with Me) where they will turn around having no knowledge of the action and be able to say "we're looking into the policies" that led to that C.I.A. case officer's actions. Meanwhile that man is summarily thrashed in the media and possibly even fired, and re-inserted elsewhere within a shell company under a different field of the C.I.A.

It has to do with politics because of that. The reason I posted it in Slug-Fest is because I am sure there are some here on ATS, PTS, and BTS that agree with those activities and sanctions of our government in the "name of democracy" and "saving lives." As I stated in My first post I can understand these actions but the unbelieveable gall of the government to make it look like they are not doing it through plain and simple denial and the "good little citizen pat on the head" action is what makes Me sick. If you are going to commit to an action, at least have the gumption to stick your government neck in the noose when the citizens see, hear, or have knowledge of it, and do NOT agree with it.

Just so I clear this up, I have worked for a company (no names, sorry) where I was expected to follow this type of "unofficial policy" of leaving My hiney hanging in the wind if My actions were discovered by anyone other than the boss who verbally "assigned the task to Me" so that there ws no paper-trail. When people ask you to "find someone doing an action" they are generally asking you to lie about an action so that they can eliminate that person through falsified documentation. Just so everyone here knows, I was wearing a wire and recorded the whole conversation but that person doesn't know it. I also documented the time, place of conversation, and exact words that person directed to Me, and the exact actions that were directed to Me, along with the classic "this never leaves this office" line they utilized.

The reason for My seeming paranoia? Because I will never be caught in the wrong when I am asked to do wrong. I will always have documentation so that it will not fall on Me. Paperwork, paperwork, paperwork. Now that person can never come to Me and ask why I did that action. By the way, I never did "find the person in the wrong" I was supposed to. That would be unethical of Me to do so. I caught the person in so many traps that I thought I was a rat exterminator.

[edit on 7-3-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Unfortunately I don't think this board gets as much traffic as the others. Great post, by the way.

I'm eager for someone who is in favor of torture/waterboarding to make a reply.

reply to post by Sublime620



Thanks for the reply to My post here. Yeah, I will be interested in seeing what someone says in defense of waterboarding. I am against torture of any kind Myself because it is cruel and unusual. I do fully understand the costs of freedom but the cost of humanity itself shouldn't be one of those costs. The person who commits those acts loses their humanity because they are no better than the person they are torturing by becoming a monster as well.

This is all to gather intelligence of course but to what extent do you lose humanity and become a robot through the denial of compassion.

I have trouble understanding the people who defend it. Most of the time, they are the ones who say, "I love America" or "Freedom isn't free". They tout patriotism as if it's something that you can wear on your sleeve.

Yet, these people disagree with our Founding Fathers on about every important issue out there.

So much for patriotism. Seems to me like they should move to a more fascist country if they want to be truely patriotic.

Here's what gets me:

"Were it not for this program, our intelligence community believes that al-Qaeda and its allies would have succeeded in launching another attack against the American homeland," the president said.


So what this means is that the airline security, censoring of reporters, heck even the Dept of Homeland Security itself, had nothing to do with preventing attacks? That it was all because of the CIA interrogation program?

Then WHY does so much money get put into Homeland Security? Why do I have to show up 2-4 hours before my flight in order to make my flight? None of that would have stopped any of these attacks?

(anger is not directed at anyone who has posted! Simply venting at the govt) :-P

reply to post by Gauntlet


There's all kinds of fur flying on Washington D.C.'s steps claiming that there were false statements that leds us into war with Iraq. I'm not claiming one way or the other with that. The question I have is when the most powerful nation in the world is accused of having a lieing President, what will the rest of the world do about it? Will it be just him they attack or the people he represents? Again, I'm not condoning any action there, I just hope I'm not someone who is attacked.

All forms of torture (mental & physical torture) are horrible. All of us know intentionally drowning/flooding a person's face with water (a.k.a. waterboarding) is deplorable & destructive.

Rulers of nations (kings & queens) are very well-known for their quest for knowledge and blood. Our nation is ruled by murderers, who love knowledge (intelligence), and they'll kill for it. They enjoy harming people.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas



In a response to the headline- Hollywood creates some of the best propaganda materials the world has ever seen. This formula is so precise that people believe they are watching a "movie"!

This powerful tactic is another way to introduce the horrors which are coming or planning to come to gage public opinion and figure out the "spin" and/or response.

Most actors, producers, directors, writers have no idea they are being used and exploited they way they are. They are busy dealing with fame, fortune and keeping their careers going.

Only a small group in Hollywood knows what time it is.

btw, torture is torture and it has never made the world a better place- IMO

reply to post by dk3000


I agree with you wholeheartedly, torture is torture. I believe that some of Hollywood willingly and knowingly participates, not necessarily a stupid dupe, but there are plenty of them as well.

I just posted this over on there two threads, and since it is one quote I put there, I thought I would share it here as well :

Blackwater : Right-Wing Conservative America, Whether You Like It Or Not...

United States Quits Human Rights Council

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I just posted this over on this thread here :

United States Quits Human Rights Council

This really should concern a lot of American citizens in that if we as a nation are stepping away from an important Council like this, it only spells disaster for America.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
If the United States had stepped away from the Human Rights Council, that can only really mean one thing. That being that the U.S. Government is not going to acknowledge human rights in open quarters, since it is already not acknowledging it behind closed doors, with the C.I.A. Black sights, where there is torture going on in the name of our freedoms, but via a surrogate country doing the actual torturing.

For instance I mention waterboarding in this thread :

G.I.Jane vs Rendition...Hollywood vs Reality...Training vs Torture...WATERBOARDING

One of, and I mean one of My sources of some of this information was this book :

Ghost Plane: The True Story of the CIA Torture Program

As well as this book also :

Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army

Which I reference in this thread here :

Blackwater : Right-Wing Conservative America, Whether You Like It Or Not...

Here's the thing: I agree that water boarding is wrong, but at the same time if we don't torture the enemy, how will we get them to talk? Give them a donut, a cigarette, and be friendly to them? Give them a lie detector's test? But a lie detector's test wouldn't be to useful until you have gotten the information from the person.

Originally posted by jca2005
Here's the thing: I agree that water boarding is wrong, but at the same time if we don't torture the enemy, how will we get them to talk? Give them a donut, a cigarette, and be friendly to them? Give them a lie detector's test? But a lie detector's test wouldn't be to useful until you have gotten the information from the person.

Don't you think I can understand that? The problem herein lies with the fact that this abuse, only brings more abuse, and negativity against the American citizens and soldiers.

Meanwhile, Bush, Cheney, and whoever else sit in their pretty white tower, fully protected by armed guards, while we as American citizens are in a constant state of threat due to this idiots policies, both here within the U.S. and overseas as well.

The terrorist's do not differentiate between the American citizens and politicians, and in fact blame us as the citizens who vote to put idiots like this joke we currently have in the highest Administrative office in the country, so they would rather take it out on easy, the easier targets.

Meanwhile, the politicians, the idiots in power, do differentiate themselves to us in that they see us as the cannon fodder, collateral damage and casualties of war.

That should piss you off, it sure as Hell does Me. Don't believe Me?

Well, you don't know politicians well then.



[edit on 28-6-2008 by SpartanKingLeonidas]