Humans evolved from Machines - Theory

I tend to believe this backs up the creationist story how God created man. its evidence of creation being created.


Keeper

reply to post by hidatsa

What an enchanting post. Yes, I believe that may be one possible future for humanity.

But I think, rather, that we shall merge with our creation, and together become somethng entirely different. I rather hope so.

reply to post by Astyanax


And to that end, I present this article:

DNA Is Blueprint, Contractor And Construction Worker For New Structures

Using just one kind of nanoparticle (gold) the researchers built two common but very different crystalline structures by merely changing one thing -- the strands of synthesized DNA attached to the tiny gold spheres. A different DNA sequence in the strand resulted in the formation of a different crystal.

The technique, to be published in the journal Nature, and reflecting more than a decade of work, is a major and fundamental step toward building functional "designer" materials using programmable self-assembly. This "bottom-up" approach will allow scientists to take inorganic materials and build structures with specific properties for a given application, such as therapeutics, biodiagnostics, optics, electronics or catalysis.

Singularity is coming. First steps are here.

Pretty cool Beach.

As you may know there are a couple types of 'Singularity'. One is a 'technological singularity and the other is the biological singularity.

As machines are able to reach trans-human intelligence, or superhuman intelligence, they'll start designing smarter machines and advances will just accelerate.

Many people feel that we shouldn't go too far with nanotech until we develop the super intelligent computer so that it will aid us in preventing problems (grey goo for instance).

Once that happens, then humans will start trying to develop the perfect machine which includes all the connections for the 100,000,000,000 neurons in the human brain, and we can 'download' ourselves and our consciousnesses into this machine. Being able to self-repair with nano-tech this 'new transhuman' would be immortal.

At some point we may 'transcend'. That is things will start happening so quickly that some singularians predict that we will 'wink out of existence' or transcend to a new plane of existence. We will, in effect, become 'gods' (small g).

There are some people who doubt this for a variety of reasons. Perhaps we'll reach a limit with computing power, or perhaps the permutations of the human brain will be too much to get it right.

Singularians say we will just use a subset and try for close to human and then 'brute force' our way to the next subset and keep trying.

Keep the best random models that are most like humans and throw out the rest.

The computer would judge which programs were the most like human consciousness and then we'd soon be in the 'singularity' where things are happening at an uncalculable rate of progress.

But if we can surpass those potential barriers it will be a strange and interesting time.

Hopefully some of us won't 'just miss' this event by passing on a few months or a few years too soon.

If I haven't covered the salient points, perhaps Beachcoma can chip in and give his impressions.

reply to post by Beachcoma


Here are some threads i have started that discuss manufacturing on the nano and atomic scale:

How much does it take to move a single atom?

Scientists use DNA to grow consistently shaped nanostructures


the one issue i have with "uploading" us into a machine is that we then run the risk of limiting who/what we are. If it doesn't go with the program, it cannot exist.

One would hope that at some point, programming logic sequences can be summarized logarithmically (programming for probablistic factors from an infinite pool). It would seem that unless we can create the logical analogy to "vector mapping" on steriods, the "singularity" idea may limit us too much.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Yeah, I wouldn't want to be the first one to be uploaded. In fact the paradigm might be different.

It might be that there would be a holographic way to do it.

Here's a pretty far out thought.

Put the body into a stasis chamber or something on the order of what they show in The Matrix, but voluntarily.

Then jack the consciousness into the machine. After a while, people could opt in to a more aggressive program.

The machine body could also have a very robust monitoring and safety system to assure the corporeal body was OK.

Or...

Remember the transplant machine that was used on Spock in Spock's Brain? The advanced cybernetics surgery department would just translate the meat brain into the cyber body.

Or...

Nano techniques could be used to take the model of the perfect cyber-bot, and then gradually, and internally, replace the carbon-hydrogen-oxygen-nitrogen meat body into unobtanium or adamantine.

Since there would have been a time where this kind of thing was done on a smaller scale for injuries, people would become used to it.

Gradually the whole body would replaced, save, maybe the actual brain, and it would be almost not even noticed by the user.

It doesn't have to be some kind of gross thing where they use optical-quantum cabling and then 'kill' or dispose of the meat body - which most people would find objectionable.

2 cents.

I am of the opinion that the brain is nothing more than the "interface" between physical and other. I don't know what other is. I suppose it is something akin to a soul, but that is just my "preloaded" information that comes from social impacts.

But it would certainly seem that the actual thought and memory comes from elsewhere. We see activity in brain scans, but this activity to me seems more akin to a computer accessing its storage devices, you know?

Consciousness seems to emanate from elsewhere, however, For example, the kid that had the hemospherectomy. He is a college graduate. You can remove HALF OF THE BRAIN and still graduate college? If this is true, then it says very little for a college degree.

Further, brain size does not associate itself with intelligence. Gigantic people are no smarter than people who are extraordinarily small.

Jack Russell terriers are obviously smarter than much, much larger dogs.

Intelligence, to me, must be an artiface of the brains wired ability to convey logic strings and memory from the body to where ever our true consciousness is kept.

yes, this is very "eastern" sounding. I realize that...once again an artiface of my mindset.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


RE: you're notion intelligence/consciousness etc., doesn't reside in the brain, (or as I like to put it, the brain may only be the 'modem' by which intelligence/consciousness is downloaded onto the 'desktop' of the body):

- you're probably fully aware of this, anyway, but just in case you aren't, (or indeed anyone else isn't), your idea is hardly discredited by the fact there are over one hundred living people known to science who basically don't have a brain, yet who in every other sense are otherwise perfectly normal fully functioning human beings.

Here's a fairly recent example:

www.spiegel.de...

This guy's supposedly of low IQ (75), but others with even less brain components than him are reported to be the likes of doctors and university lecturers.

In the early days of medical research, (i.e., the days of the infamous bodysnatchers), many early researchers reported performing autopsies on individuals reknowned for their brainpower only to find smaller than average brains or indeed little more than mere vestigial traces.

These reports were - and often still are - readily dismissed as being due to poor observation, poor technique, etc., probably because they seemed to call into question the Theory of Evolution, but are less easy to discredit in the light of modern hi-tech findings.

I doubt humans evolved from machines. It's already been demonstrated that protocells can emerge in early Earth-like conditions in the lab...we don't need anything fancy.

www.lessonplanspage.com...

Well it looks like the preliminary steps to getting it done are, well, done.

Here's the article.

www.sciencedaily.com...

They found a way to pretty much replicate sugar compounds synthetically. I feel like science has finally caught up with science fiction in this field. I wonder if we could use technology like this to synthesize other organic compounds...If so, we could probably synthesize our very energy sources...Hell we can even just do it with sugars. Man the possibilities...Not to mention the medical advancements(as illustrated by the article). As far as they can tell, however, they only really know the structure to only a few sugar compounds like heparin. Basically, the field is wide open.

reply to post by Badge01


good thread - I hope you don't mind me injecting some relevant humour to it. You will enjoy this one.


They're made out of Meat

by Terry Bisson


"They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"Meat. They're made out of meat."

"Meat?"

"There's no doubt about it. We picked several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, probed them all the way through. They're completely meat."

"That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars."

"They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines."

"So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact."

"They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines."


"That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat."

"I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in the sector and they're made out of meat."

"Maybe they're like the Orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage."

"Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take too long. Do you have any idea the life span of meat?"


"Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the Weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside."

"Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads like the Weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the waythrough."

"No brain?"

"Oh, there is a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat!"

"So... what does the thinking?"

"You're not understanding, are you? The brain does the thinking. The meat."

"Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!"

"Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you getting the picture?"

"Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat."

"Finally, Yes. They are indeed made out meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years."

"So what does the meat have in mind?"

"First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the universe, contact other sentients, swap ideas and information. The usual."

"We're supposed to talk to meat?"

"That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there? Anyone home?' That sort of thing."

"They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?"

"Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat."

"I thought you just told me they used radio."

"They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat."

"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?"

"Officially or unofficially?"

"Both."

"Officially, we are required to contact, welcome, and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in the quadrant, without prejudice, fear, or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing."

"I was hoping you would say that."

"It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?"

"I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say?" `Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?"

"Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact."

"So we just pretend there's no one home in the universe."

"That's it."

"Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you have probed? You're sure they won't remember?"

"They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them."

"A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream."

"And we can mark this sector unoccupied."

"Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?"

"Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again."

"They always come around."

"And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the universe would be if one were all alone."

-------
Ends


www.terrybisson.com...

On 2-8 (my 7 year anniversary at my job, BTW) the following was published:

DNA the link in nanoparticle construction

DNA would appear to be the best option for guiding the assembly of the nanoparticle bricks into the desired construction. DNA strands can be attached to the nanoparticles, with sequences programmed to zip up with complementary DNA strands on a neighboring particle.

snip

Using a single DNA linker sequence results in a close-packed, face-centered cubic crystal structure. But using two different linker sequences that bind to each other but not themselves gives a binary system, which crystallizes in an open, body-centered cubic structure.

“We are now closer to the dream of learning, as nanoscientists, how to break everything down into fundamental building blocks and reassemble them into whatever structure we want,” says Mirkin.

The interesting piece for me is that they have found the greatest initial success with gold. Gold, as we all know, has very special properties (primarily relative to light/EM). So it does not surprise me that it has been the most successfully tested material.

And these guys aren't the only one's working through the concept:

Using a similar method, researchers at Brookhaven National Laboratory (BNL) have further investigated the interactions between complementary DNA-functionalized nanoparticles [Nykypanchuk et al., Nature (2008) 451, 549].

We are getting closer and closer to stepping into the shoes of "creator", instead of just being the "created".

Nice article BBFT.

Also interesting how with the posting of a pure science link to my theory that a Mod would move this to the Skunkworks.

I expected to come here and see some retarded post by a creationist causing the move, but no, your post was an excellent tie in to the theory that at the nano and molecular level, techno and bio are inextricably linked.



[edit on 8-6-2008 by Badge01]

Such is life.

I like Skunkworks, anyway. It is the unofficial "home" of the Pegasus Group.

But, since we are talking about modelling things on a nearly quantum scale, i thought this would be interesting as well (cross posted from a thread of mine):

Scientists Measure What It Takes to Push a Single Atom

Just 17 piconewtons, or 60 trillionths of an ounce, is the force it takes to push a cobalt atom across a copper surface. This is one of the findings of a group of IBM scientists who have been testing a new kind of atomic force microscope (AFM), which has made the first measurements of the force required to move an individual atom.

The ability to move atoms, with precision, provides very exciting new possibilities when considered in the field of nanotech.

yes, they have done atomic level precision work before, but there are no models on the exact force needed to alter the location of individual atoms.

As well, i can cross post this information, too:

The benefits, at least for the most part for what is already identified, are fairly well covered in the article. The ability to build things from an atomic level will also provide access to different properties of the same minerals we currently have.

Here is a link discussing how being able to build reliably structured 3-d nano models increases capability

the benefits of nano are limitless. The ability to provide for a human like circulatory system, complete with individual nano's that each perform separate tasks (healing, lubing, delivery of various minterals, etc) is a current reality.

Someone posted a link about self healing rubber. Yes, that is quite the breakthrough. Can you imagine the implications?

A mutual friend of myself and a few others here sent this email:

The February 1, 2008 edition of the journal Science includes a brief article focusing on the futuristic sounding topic of Adaptive Composites. Richard Vaia and Jeffery Baur write that materials are now under development that can respond dynamically to changes in their environment. Concepts such as suppleness to squeeze through crevices, aircraft skin that regulates temperature and self-healing composites are now being studied. These ideas go beyond the idea of advanced composites and into the field of adaptive composites. This same focus in materials science are "driving the development of adaptive composites that mimic biological responsive functionality while operating in extreme environments." Today's design includes ideas of "structural efficiency" with "active functions such as sensing, energy harvesting and propulsion are added by attaching components to the structure." But changes may be on the way soon.
Currently "advanced passive material technologies such as continuous-fiber organic-matrix composites" are used in various applications. New innovations are aiming to incorporate "flexible, jointed frameworks and complex materials [that] impart active functionality at multiple length scales within the materials." This requires synthetics that combine materials that have active properties, autonomic response and "new computational tools that enable design, analysis and optimization of the collective and hierarchical dynamic character." The aerospace industry seems to be most interested in the "transformation of rigid substructure to a dynamic, articulated structure." Uses include "large-scale antennae in space and the development of morphing wings on unmanned aerial vehicles."
Other goals include "energy-efficient locomotion and concealment" which are top priorities. By mimicking organisms it is hoped that "highly deformable networks can be created from cellular materials, bistable composite laminates and bimorph strips." It is also hoped that using CNTs(carbon nanotubes) will be incorporated into mats and arrays that stress energy can be stored and recovered. From all appearances the greatest hurdle is not the lack of constituents for material composites but a real need for better and more "streamlined computational design tools that capture the properties of the many possible configurations or states." The complexity in coupling multiple active materials with evolutionary, emergent and morphogenic attributes is with not an obstacle. Indeed it remains only a challenge yet to be fulfilled. Some real challenges do include weakness at interfaces, bonding and reverse flexibility.
The contributors Vaia and Baur say that elegant outlines have been proposed in earnest since 2004. They also believe utilization of micro- and nano-robotics as well as fluidics will also contribute much to these novel adaptive materials. In these two ideas we not only face the challenge of design but also that of durability.

A Google search of "Adaptive Composites". If you actually follow links, this will blow your mind.

www.google.com...

Yes, we are on the verge of something great. If we don't kill ourselves first.

Perhaps a separate thread should be made to cover adaptive composite discoveries. This is actually the advent of such technology as self healing ship skins, reactive/responsive hulls and other parts. Imagine the telemetry available when you have constant feedback being provided via nano"circuits" full of nano's in a fluidic suspension.

Here's a passage from their article in Science:

(25 JANUARY 2008 VOL 319 www.sciencemag.org)

Imagine a search-and-rescue robot that can change shape to squeeze through crevices with the suppleness of an octopus, or an aircraft skin with a circulatory system that enables temperature regulation, cooling, and self-healing similar to an animal. Such concepts are driving the development of adaptive composites that mimic biological responsive functionality while operating in extreme environments. Traditionally, the high-performance, load-bearing substructures of aircraft, satellites and robots are designed for structural efficiency.

Thus, they are rigid and passive; active functions such as sensing, energy harvesting, and propulsion are added by attaching components to the structure. This compartmentalization of functions into attached subsystems streamlines manufacturing and maintenance and facilitates upgrades. Advanced passive material technologies, such as continuous-fiber organic-matrix composites, have revolutionized applications from sporting equipment and prosthetics to satellites and aircrafts.

(emphasis mine)

For example, Baughman and co-workers used a coating of catalytic nanoparticles on a shape-memory alloy wire to convert enough chemical energy to thermal energy to trigger a shape recovery of the wire (7). Advances in understanding natural systems are also high-lighting chemical triggers. For example, addition of acetylcholine and calcium ionophores shifts the iridescence of the mantle iridophores of the cephalopod Lolliguncula brevis from red to blue, providing dynamic coloration. Recombinant derivatives of comparable proteins have been self-assembled in vitro to form fibers and diffraction gratings with dynamic coloration (8).

Further they conclude that radiation can be used as a stimulus for AR.

Radiation can also be used as a trigger for adaptive response. Recent advances in optically triggered, reversible colloid surface chemistry (9) may lead to rheological fluids that do not require a bias to maintain an ordered electrical or magnetic state. Photoisomerization on the molecular scale can alter liquid-crystal phase stability or control domain orientation, resulting in substantial changes in mechanical and optical characteristics (10). Koerner and co-workers used carbon nanotubes dispersed in shape-memory polymers to trigger shape recovery both electrically and optically (11).

Since radiation is a natural force, it's not difficult to see how this could happen spontaneously, given the right seeding.

Thanks for the additional input.



[edit on 8-6-2008 by Badge01]

There are even materials that could help shield from radiation by converting it into electrical energy (more stuff from another thread of mine):

New Materials Can Convert Radiation Directly Into Electricity

Materials that directly convert radiation into electricity could produce a new era of spacecraft and even Earth-based vehicles powered by high-powered nuclear batteries, say US researchers. Electricity is usually made using nuclear power by heating steam to rotate turbines that generate electricity. But beginning in the 1960s, the US and Soviet Union used thermoelectric materials that convert heat into electricity to power spacecraft using nuclear fission or decaying radioactive material. The Pioneer missions were among those using the latter, "nuclear battery" approach. Dispensing with the steam and turbines makes those systems smaller and less complicated. But thermoelectric materials have very low efficiency. Now US researchers say they have developed highly efficient materials that can convert the radiation, not heat, from nuclear materials and reactions into electricity.

This could be a HUGE breakthrough. The need for fusion designs could be limited, and the spent fuel now has a use. Spectacular, indeed.

Further, consider the implications in space travel. You cannot use solar energy as well around Mars, as you only get about half the light. Being able to capitalize on the ambient radiation would be a HUGE help to our search for living on another planet.

The reason i bring these up is that it seems VERY likely that we could be, in actuality, an array of biological machines.

The more you look at it, the more machine like humans seem.