Founding Fathers Were Anti-Christians

The Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians Or Lovers Of The Bible...

Yes, christians may not like it today, but it's still historial fact that the American Founding Fathers were not what we would label 'christians' today. Far from it...

Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts. The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible

SOURCE: www.infidels.org...




Replaced quote with 'ex' tags

Please read Posting work written by others

www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 2/3/08 by masqua]

[edit on 2/3/08 by masqua]

[edit on 2-3-2008 by jimbo999]

reply to post by jimbo999


I thought this was extremely interesting in light of the current insidious rise of the christian right wing in the US today. The founding fathers tried to protect their fledgling country; securely seperating Church and State in the US in a legal framework with the Constitution. Yet the myth prevails that the Founding Fathers were all bible bashers - which in reality, couldn't BE further from the truth.

J.

Saying that the Founding Fathers were anti-Christian is somewhat ignorant, due to the fact that some of them were devout Christians. However, you are correct that SOME of them were, in fact, anti-Christians. The majority were God-fearing, but even those who were were mainly made up of deists. The ones who were anti-Christian despised it simply because they knew of the atrocities imposed upon their ancestors by the Church of England. My favorite Founding Father, Thomas Jefferson, said this:

"[T]hey [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

He also said this:

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

And this:

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

And this:

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

And this:

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

And James Madison had this to say:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.

And John Adams said this:

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

And this:

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

And this:

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years."

And to all those right wing ignorant people who claim that our country was founded on Christianity or that we are a Christian nation, allow me to quote George Washington and [by signature] John Adams:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

However, as I said, calling "the Founding Fathers" anti-Christian is lumping them all into one stereotype. They were not all anti-Christian, and in reality very few of them were. However, they were all for the firm separation of Church and State, and this country was not founded on the Christian religion.

an3

[edit on 2/3/08 by an3rkist]

reply to post by an3rkist


So you basically agree with the article then? Isn't it amazing that so many americans today know so little about the true origins of this country?

Today, with the dark gathering of fundementalist christians making such an explicit power grab, I find it pretty ironic that they actually try to justify their actions as somehow traditionally american.

Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave....

Seems to me that the whole reson detre of the constitution was to protect the US from European Imperialism, and just as importantly, to guard against the type of christian extremism and intollerance we are seeing more and more of today.

J.

Originally posted by jimbo999
reply to post by an3rkist

 

So you basically agree with the article then?

I agree with the article, just not the title of this thread.

Isn't it amazing that so many americans today know so little about the true origins of this country?

Not really that amazing once you've seen some of the things I've seen. Americans have been conditioned to care more about what's happening on American Idol or who Paris Hilton is humping or which Olsen Twin is bulimic and which one is a coke head than they do about anything important.



Don't get your hopes up, it's not a picture of Paris Hilton humping anything...

Today, with the dark gathering of fundementalist christians making such an explicit power grab, I find it pretty ironic that they actually try to justify their actions as somehow traditionally american.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." -Unknown, but usually attributed to Sinclair Lewis

Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave....

All of our forefathers would be horrified by what America has become, I think. They would probably pack up, catch the next flight to some third world country, kill most of the indigenous people, and start all over.

Seems to me that the whole reson detre of the constitution was to protect the US from European Imperialism, and just as importantly, to guard against the type of christian extremism and intollerance we are seeing more and more of today.

Religious intolerance was definitely at the top of their hate-list, along with taxation without representation, central banks, big government, bad foreign policy, large amounts of laws, and a lot of other things that are inherent problems in America today. I think they would be especially put out by the evangelicals using them as excuses to further trample on the rights of fellow Americans, though.

[edit on 3/3/08 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by jimbo999
The Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians Or Lovers Of The Bible...

All of them were anti-Christians? No.

Most of 'em? No.

en.wikipedia.org...


Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics, C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestants Constitutional Convention delegates, 28 were Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Dutch Reformed, and 2 were Methodists. Many of the more prominent Founding Fathers were vocal about their opposition to organized religion or anti-clerical, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson's Bible"), Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Paine. However, a few of the more notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of traditional Deists, including Franklin, Jefferson, Paine and Ethan Allen.[10]

Notwithstanding the spectrum of beliefs held by the Founding Fathers, most viewed religion in a favorable light. This is noted through their statements in speeches and correspondences in which they describe its role in molding "national morality" and securing the rule of law (George Washington), its check on human "wickedness" (Benjamin Franklin), and its preservation of a free government such as America (John Adams). Regardless, the division of church and state was always emphasized by the founding fathers. "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," states the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli. This document was ratified by Congress without much debate or contention and stands today as a reminder of the founding fathers' intentions.[11]

Yes, christians may not like it today, but it's still historial fact that the American Founding Fathers were not what we would label 'christians' today. Far from it...

Do you have any numbers (%of) on that? It's true that the government was not founded on the Christian religion. It's true the founding fathers advocated an anti-theocracy message (separation of church and state.) That does not mean they were anti-Christian. Most of them were, as a matter of historical fact, Christians. You're engaging in some of the same historical revisionism you accuse others of.

Unless you'd care to list all founders (signers of DoI and Federalist Papers) and their respective religious beliefs, to back up your conjecture that, "Founding Fathers Were Anti-Christians" I can't see any point in this thread. Or perhaps your title was poorly worded or a typo. In which case all you've pointed out is that some were not Christians although most were and "most viewed religion in a favorable light."

I thought that was common knowledge. What's the conspiracy again?

Originally posted by Rren
Do you have any numbers (%of) on that?........Most of them were, as a matter of historical fact, Christians.

Where are your numbers (%of) on that?

Unless you'd care to list all founders (signers of DoI and Federalist Papers) and their respective religious beliefs, to back up your conjecture that, "Founding Fathers Were Anti-Christians" I can't see any point in this thread. Or perhaps your title was poorly worded or a typo. In which case all you've pointed out is that some were not Christians although most were and "most viewed religion in a favorable light."

I thought that was common knowledge. What's the conspiracy again?

Seriously, how can you condemn somebody for something in the same exact sentence that you're doing the exact same thing?

The whole idea of this thread is to challenge the idea that our forefathers were all Bible-thumping church-goers. (Correct me if I'm wrong OP.)

True, it would be much better with a list of our forefathers and each of their religious affiliations, but if you're not going to provide one supporting your conjecture then don't condemn the OP for not doing so. And perhaps you didn't read the quotes I mentioned? Because at least I gave some evidence that your conjecture is as false of a generalization as the OP's.

[edit to add more quotes]

I just wanted to add some more quotes by more founding fathers:

Benjamin Franklin:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble."

Ethan Allen:

"That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words."

Allen said that he was "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."

Thomas Paine:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

None of us should make general statements about the Founding Fathers. They were all from different backgrounds. It is wrong to say they were all anti-Christian, but it is also wrong to say they were mostly Christian. And not that he was a Founding Father, but Honest Abe Lincoln said these:

“My earlier views at the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them”

“The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.”

[edit on 3/3/08 by an3rkist]

reply to post by jimbo999


Being anti-clerical does not equal "anti-Christian" - not by a long shot.
(In fact, some of the most ardent enemies of clericalism were equally ardent Christians. Their faith was precisely what fueled their anger towards the Church as an institution.)

Look: these "founding fathers" were intellectuals, living in the 18th century: a time when the European "Enlightenment" was the rage, the only "in" line of thinking; a time when Jesuits were expelled in many places, and Joseph II of Austria, among others, closed countless convents across his empire.

These things should never ever be discussed outside their proper cultural and political context.




[edit on 3-3-2008 by Vanitas]

Originally posted by an3rkist


Where are your numbers (%of) on that?

I'm not the one challenging the consensus opinion here. However, I did provide a link which did break down some of those numbers and backed up what I said i.e., that most of the founding fathers were Christian and also, that most of them view religion favorably; they weren't anti-Christian. Dems da facts, Jack. Sorry to disappoint.

Seriously, how can you condemn somebody for something in the same exact sentence that you're doing the exact same thing?

I'm an enigma, or you're confused. I could go either way.

The whole idea of this thread is to challenge the idea that our forefathers were all Bible-thumping church-goers. (Correct me if I'm wrong OP.)

I think you shifted his goal-post for him. 'All the founding fathers were not bible-thumpers' was consistent with what I posted. It's common knowledge. The Op is arguing that, "Founding Fathers Were Anti-Christian." Not some weren't Bible thumpers. No conspiracy there.

True, it would be much better with a list of our forefathers and each of their religious affiliations, but if you're not going to provide one supporting your conjecture then don't condemn the OP for not doing so. And perhaps you didn't read the quotes I mentioned? Because at least I gave some evidence that your conjecture is as false of a generalization as the OP's.

What in my post do you object to - that was not adequately covered to your satisfaction in the link (and supporting links contained there-in) I supplied? Did you feel that I posted anything controversial? Perhaps I can clarify. I'm not arguing for anything off-the-wall or counter to accepted history so far as I'm aware. I'm not getting the disconnect here. Sure can't see the conspiracy. A little bit of revised history and out of context quotes, some carefully selected fathers (whom represent the minority of the founders) used to do some Christian bashing. Pretty standard stuff.


Your mileage may vary.

Originally posted by Rren
I'm not the one challenging the consensus opinion here. However, I did provide a link which did break down some of those numbers and backed up what I said i.e., that most of the founding fathers were Christian and also, that most of them view religion favorably; they weren't anti-Christian. Dems da facts, Jack. Sorry to disappoint.

I think the underlying problem here is that history can be written in any way we see fit to justify our own beliefs. Even to say that a Founding Father was of a certain affiliation or denomination does not mean he was a Christian, because some of our Founding Fathers who were admittedly not Christians attended services at times with their families and have been said to have been Christians based on that alone. The other problem is that I am apparently in this thread for the wrong reasons. As you will see above, my first post was saying the same thing you are: that we cannot generalize the Founding Fathers as all anti-Christians.

I think you shifted his goal-post for him. 'All the founding fathers were not bible-thumpers' was consistent with what I posted. It's common knowledge. The Op is arguing that, "Founding Fathers Were Anti-Christian." Not some weren't Bible thumpers. No conspiracy there.

I think you're right that I may have shifted his purported goal-post, which unfortunately is apparently what I've been doing since even before you came into this thread. If the OP means to say that all the Founding Fathers were anti-Christian, then as you and I have both said, he's wrong. I think he may have only put that title in order to grab attention and didn't mean it as a generalization, but then, I'm assuming...

What in my post do you object to - that was not adequately covered to your satisfaction in the link (and supporting links contained there-in) I supplied? Did you feel that I posted anything controversial? Perhaps I can clarify. I'm not arguing for anything off-the-wall or counter to accepted history so far as I'm aware. I'm not getting the disconnect here. Sure can't see the conspiracy. A little bit of revised history and out of context quotes, some carefully selected fathers (whom represent the minority of the founders) used to do some Christian bashing. Pretty standard stuff.

Which of my quotes are out of context?

"Carefully selected"? I'm still not trying to prove that all Founding Fathers were anti-Christians; just that some of them probably were. That's all I've been trying to do. And it should be noted that the ones quoted are fairly important ones. I could just as easily quote equally important ones who were devout Christians, but then, as I said, I'm only here to help stifle the idea that all our Founding Fathers were Christians.

The conspiracy that I see is the evangelicals who mean to make this country a Christian one when it was never meant to be so. That's as far as I go with it, perhaps the OP has different theories.

Perhaps this is different for me than it is for the OP, but I object to the same thing in your post that you do in the OP's: generalization and revision of history. Your Wikipedia link fails to satisfy, at least in my mind, the notion that the majority of our Founding Fathers were Christians. And here's why (this is from theology.edu)

Many well-meaning Christians argue that the United States was founded by Christian men on Christian principles. Although well-intentioned, such sentiment is unfounded. The men who lead the United States in its revolution against England, who wrote the Declaration of Independence and put together the Constitution were not Christians by any stretch of the imagination.
Why do some Christians imagine these men are Christians? Besides a desperate desire that it should be so, in a selective examination of their writings, one can discover positive statements about God and/or Christianity. However, merely believing in God does not make a person a Christian. The Bible says that "the fool says in his heart, there is no God." Our founding fathers were not fools. But the Bible also says "You say you believe in God. Good. The demons also believe and tremble."
Merely believing in God is insufficient evidence for demonstrating either Christian principles or that a person is a Christian.

www.theology.edu...

In the following link, which I got from your referenced Wikipedia article, the author admits that it is very hard for us to ascertain the denomination of our Founding Fathers. Additionally, he says that

"What few people today seem to realize is that real definitions of orthodoxy don't easily apply to the American generations of people born during the 18th century. Protestantism had not matured to its current state, and the Age of Enlightenment was introducing new theological concepts based on reason over scripture."

Even some who were back then considered Christian would not be today.

earlyamericanhistory.net...

I also was dissatisfied by your Wikipedia link because there was no link to a reference to give me more information on who were the ones being labeled Christians in the article, except for in the bibliography which mentions the book, thus allowing me to ensure that those who are deists were not included in the list. In fact, at the bottom of that page is a link to a website titled "Our Founding Fathers Were Not Christians".

freethought.mbdojo.com...

I have read several books on the subject, though not the one mentioned in the Wikipedia article, and each one paints a different picture. I'm not arguing that some of our Founding Fathers were Christians, I'm just here because I want people to stop using our Founding Fathers as an excuse to narrow the gap between Church and State.

Unfortunately I have had in my mind the idea that this thread was about proving that America is not a Christian nation, and that not all of our Founding Fathers were Christians. You seem to have gotten it in your mind that this is about saying ALL the Founding Fathers were anti-Christian. (Justifiably so, considering the title.) I argued this even before you did, so we are on the same page there.

[edit on 3/3/08 by an3rkist]

It is common knowledge that all the founding fathers were not Christians.

Yawn....

The title of this thread is just a sensationalist cheap shot. No class. The OP has a well known agenda of attacking the Christian faith.

The only conspiracy is his attempt to use this forum to bash the Christian Faith.

I won't be back - don't bother

reply to post by an3rkist


Interesting stuff - yes. You are very knowledgable whenit comes to US history, nice to see. No Paris pics huh? Hopes dashed once again

True, the topic heading was perhaps slightly infammatory, (shades of mainstream gossip rags..) but far from innacurate in certain respects.

Was my original intention to stimulate debate on the actual, historically recorded relgious beliefs of the Founding Fathers, as opposed to the current mythology often attributed to them? Errmm...yes.

It's dangerous to use historical revisionism as a tool for political gain, yet this is what we are seeing today..

J.

Originally posted by an3rkist
I think the underlying problem here is that history can be written in any way we see fit to justify our own beliefs. Even to say that a Founding Father was of a certain affiliation or denomination does not mean he was a Christian, because some of our Founding Fathers who were admittedly not Christians attended services at times with their families and have been said to have been Christians based on that alone. The other problem is that I am apparently in this thread for the wrong reasons. As you will see above, my first post was saying the same thing you are: that we cannot generalize the Founding Fathers as all anti-Christians.

Fair enough.

I think you're right that I may have shifted his purported goal-post, which unfortunately is apparently what I've been doing since even before you came into this thread. If the OP means to say that all the Founding Fathers were anti-Christian, then as you and I have both said, he's wrong. I think he may have only put that title in order to grab attention and didn't mean it as a generalization, but then, I'm assuming...

I agree, although, it could be argued that the non-Christian founders were not anti-Christian. I can elucidate my point by showing quotes from the same founders you are quoting. I was trying to avoid a quote-on-quote-pissing-contest, but if you feel the founders (you've quoted) were either 1)anti-Christian and/or 2)wanted Christian theology/philosophy to have no part in the foundation and framework of the U.S., I can show otherwise with quotes from those same founders on the subject. Classifying any of them (especially a majority) as anti-Christian simply because they were not Christians or (perhaps more accurately) atypical ones is a stretch.

Which of my quotes are out of context?

"Carefully selected"? I'm still not trying to prove that all Founding Fathers were anti-Christians; just that some of them probably were. That's all I've been trying to do. And it should be noted that the ones quoted are fairly important ones. I could just as easily quote equally important ones who were devout Christians, but then, as I said, I'm only here to help stifle the idea that all our Founding Fathers were Christians.

I believe the quotes are out of historical context and with respect to their admiration for both Christians and the moral and ethical precepts of Christianity which the founders saw as a good framework with which to build our new nation. In other words the non-Christian founders were not necessarily anti-Christian as was insinuated in the Op.

The conspiracy that I see is the evangelicals who mean to make this country a Christian one when it was never meant to be so. That's as far as I go with it, perhaps the OP has different theories.

Perhaps, but for the record, I was challenging the Op's premise not arguing that the U.S. is a Christian nation versus a secular one. Christian ethics and morals were a major influence, but I think we more-or-less agree so I'll try not to fan the flames or take the thread off topic.

Perhaps this is different for me than it is for the OP, but I object to the same thing in your post that you do in the OP's: generalization and revision of history. Your Wikipedia link fails to satisfy, at least in my mind, the notion that the majority of our Founding Fathers were Christians.

Over half of them held seminary degrees, I think establishing that the majority of them as Christian from there is a safe bet. The signers of the DoI and Federalist papers are all listed online if needs be we could figure this out but it seems rather pointless given we seem to be in agreement here (as is the mainstream/consensus scholary opinion, too, I believe) and Jimbo hasn't arrived to challenge any of this yet. Its his baby, maybe he's got all the numbers already (I'm sure much research was involved before he presented his argument) and he's just allowing me enough rope to hang myself. Probably got me right where he wants me. [/uncontrollable shaking]

And here's why (this is from theology.edu)

The author there (I read this last night) is making one of those 'they aren't real or good Christians' arguments. Whether he's right or not, I couldn't judge (nor do I have any desire to), that argument does not make them anti-Christian. Simply atypical ones. Many of those men listed both followed Jesus' teachings (making 'em pro-Christian non-Christians) and/or called themselves Christian. Arguments over the divinity of Jesus, Nicene Creed, and/or the authority/inerrancy of Scripture (etc., etc.) are interesting but not on topic (imho) and do nothing to establish the Op's 'founders were anti-Christian' premise.

In the following link, which I got from your referenced Wikipedia article, the author admits that it is very hard for us to ascertain the denomination of our Founding Fathers. Additionally, he says that

"What few people today seem to realize is that real definitions of orthodoxy don't easily apply to the American generations of people born during the 18th century. Protestantism had not matured to its current state, and the Age of Enlightenment was introducing new theological concepts based on reason over scripture."

Even some who were back then considered Christian would not be today.

earlyamericanhistory.net...

Again, none of that establishes them as anti-Christian. Same way some folks say Mormons (or whomever) aren't real Christians. I don't think our resident atheist, Jimbo, was making the 'they ain't real Christians' argument. I may be wrong.

I also was dissatisfied by your Wikipedia link because there was no link to a reference to give me more information on who were the ones being labeled Christians in the article, except for in the bibliography which mentions the book, thus allowing me to ensure that those who are deists were not included in the list. In fact, at the bottom of that page is a link to a website titled "Our Founding Fathers Were Not Christians".

freethought.mbdojo.com...

What if I were to concede (as I have) that some were Deists, how does that establish the anti-Christian premise? That's what I took issue with.

I have read several books on the subject, though not the one mentioned in the Wikipedia article, and each one paints a different picture. I'm not arguing that some of our Founding Fathers were Christians, I'm just here because I want people to stop using our Founding Fathers as an excuse to narrow the gap between Church and State.

I agree. So did most of the founders, including the (uncontroversially) Christian ones. Freedom to worship however one chooses and separation of church and state were why we fled England (more-or-less). So you see, those same secular/church-state arguments were being made by Christians too, therefore they weren't anti-Christian.


It seems that some Christians and atheists(aka Bible thumpers) wrongly equate secular with atheistic, hence all the Christian nation-no it's not-yes it is-hoopla. *shrug* If you'd like to recommend a good book on the subject, I'm all ears.

Unfortunately I have had in my mind the idea that this thread was about proving that America is not a Christian nation, and that not all of our Founding Fathers were Christians. You seem to have gotten it in your mind that this is about saying ALL the Founding Fathers were anti-Christian. (Justifiably so, considering the title.) I argued this even before you did, so we are on the same page there.

[edit on 3/3/08 by an3rkist]

Hopefully we're on the same page now... you can catch Jimbo up later.


Regards,
-Rob

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
It is common knowledge that all the founding fathers were not Christians.

Yawn....

The title of this thread is just a sensationalist cheap shot. No class. The OP has a well known agenda of attacking the Christian faith.

The only conspiracy is his attempt to use this forum to bash the Christian Faith.

I won't be back - don't bother

Bash christians? Nope. Stimulate honest debate on the subject matter? Yes.
Attacking the christain faith? Not at all. Badgering religious bigotry and intollerance? Sure, I think it's the inalienable right - no, duty of any freethinker to do just that.

Won't be back? No suprises there

J.

Originally posted by jimbo999


Bash christians? Nope. Stimulate honest debate on the subject matter? Yes.
Attacking the christain faith? Not at all. Badgering religious bigotry and intollerance? Sure, I think it's the inalienable right - no, duty of any freethinker to do just that.

Fair enough (for me.) Guess I was reading too much (re: ulterior motives) into your post. I apologize.

Won't be back? No suprises there

J.

Well, I'll check back in from time to time (taking your statement in good faith) could be interesting. Might even learn sumething new.


Regards.

Looking for a Christian? Look no further than George Washington. The following text is from a letter that George Washington's daughter wrote to author Jared Sparks who was at the time writing a book about George Washington

Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency,

He always rose before the sun, and remained in his library until called to breakfasdt [sic]. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men." He communed with his God in secret.

www.ushistory.org...

I would say that if anyone knew if George Washington was a Christian, it would be his daughter. Read the entire letter if you would. It's very telling and makes you swell with pride that the United States of America was founded and led by such a great man who was also a very devout and dedicated Christian. I would say his attendance at "Christ Church" says something about the scripture and lessons that were taught there.

Just in case you miss it, the last sentence of her letter is just fantastic stuff. His daughter says on the question of him being a Christian. Can we question Washington's Christianity?

As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

I would go so far as to say that questioning George Washington's Christianity is un-American and un-Patriotic. How detestable.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by dbates]

reply to post by Rren


Phew! Long posts. Nice to see people truly interested in the subject matter. Maybe I should have entitled the thread 'Founding Fathers Were Anti-Church And Feared The Founding Of A Theocracy' - but I somehow doubt it would have fit into the space, and some of the types of people I wanted to reach would probably has mis-understood the meaning of the word 'Theocracy'.

I also think it's very important to distinguish between a belief in some sort of 'power' and a literal and absolute belief in every word written in the bible. The founding fathers were intelligent men who understood the distinction with aplomb - but their intrinsic intelligence seems to be conveniently glossed over today by elements within society who wish them to be viewed in a far more basic and unjustifiably simplistic light.

Thanks for the fascinating posts guys.

J.



[edit on 4-3-2008 by jimbo999]

reply to post by Rren


Hi and thanks No - it wasn't you I was refering to with the 'won't be back' quote...it was a post by someone else. I find your posts very interesting

Regards,
J.

reply to post by jimbo999


That is one historical fact that fundamentalist will like to erase from the annals of the American founding fathers mentality.

The main reason for people leaving Europe and setting into a dark and unwelcoming land when they arrived in the new world was to excape persecution.

No wonder the founding fathers wanted to avoid the religious dominance that plagued Europe at the time and base the new nation under the assumption that people has the right to worship as see fit with no persecuting of any kind.

The founding fathers were no godless but by all means they didn't want no body to tell them how to worship their God.

reply to post by dbates


Very interesting. But for the record it should be mentioned that I never even mentioned Washington myself. But then what are your thoughts on Jeffereson? He was particularily anti-established christianity.

And then in the spirit of fairness, there is this other side of the fence to peek over as well:

Christian preachers who ardently wanted Washington to be portrayed as one of them have made up many stories of George Washington's strong Christian beliefs. One of the primary purveyors of these propaganda pieces was Mason Locke Weems, a Christian preacher who came up with the fable of George Washington and the cherry tree. He also feverishly promoted the myth of George Washington and Christianity.

Washington, like many people in colonial America, belonged to the Anglican church and was a vestryman in it. But in early America, particularly in pre-revolutionary America, you had to belong to the dominant church if you wanted to have influence in society, as is illustrated by the following taken from Old Chruches, Ministers and Families of Virginia, by Bishop William Meade, I, p 191. "Even Mr. Jefferson, and George Wythe, who did not conceal their disbelief in Christianity, took their parts in the duties of vestrymen, the one at Williamsburg, the other at Albermarle; for they wished to be men of influence."

OURCE: www.deism.com...

Anti-American to inquire as to the actual historical truth of American history? I don't see how that can be so. I feel it is the duty of all free-thinkers to question the accepted dogma of the day - no matter what part of the world he lives in. To not do so is to invite others to revise and potentially distort history in order to benefit, either personally or politically, surely?

Regards,

J.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by jimbo999]