Retired Battalion Chief Arthur Scheuerman Does HardFire With Mark Roberts

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by jthomas
Please demonstrate where they have refuted all of the evidence against them. Remember, the burden of proof is on them.

This is total bunk.

First you say "Please demostrate where they have refuted all of the evidence against them". So, Gage has to refute all the evidence against his theories, but the official story (and YES there is an official story) doesn't? How does that make sense?

Then you say the burden of proof is on Gage.

This isn't rocket science. The burden of proof is on Gage & Co. to refute the evidence of what happened on 9/11. They must demonstrate that the towers were blown up as he and AE911Truth claim.

I am simply asking you to demonstrate that they have done this.

And I thought you said you were not a 9/11 Truther, Griff?

Originally posted by Griff

CO,

Please go through the AE911truth website and point out some errors that they have made in regards to 9/11. It has also been posted for some time now and not a single person has found anything. If you find an error pertaining to 9/11, I will personally e-mail them and ask them to make the appropriate corrections.

I am glad you volunteered, Griff. Let's start with these two:

Claim:

"How much longer must we endure NIST's cover-up of how Building 7 was actually destroyed?"
- Richard Gage's Comments to NIST Committee - Jan 6, 2008

www.ae911truth.org...

Error:

" There are only a few photos of the burning WTC7 building. Flames are only seen on this side of the building (East) — on the 5th, 12th, and 13th floor."

Fire seen on West and South side of WTC 7 (footage of WTC 7 starts at 01:08) at and smoke coming from full height of South side:
www.youtube.com...

Eyewitness Accounts of WTC 7 Fires
wtc7lies.googlepages.com...

Get back to us when they have corrected these errors so we can move on to the others. I am confident you have influence at AE911Truth.

Right after the first World Trade Center tower collapsed, at 9:59 a.m. on September 11, 2001, Father John Delendick--one of New York Fire Department's chaplains--ran down a ramp to below the nearby World Financial Center, so as to escape the dust cloud. There he met with Deputy Chief Ray Downey, the head of the FDNY's Special Operations Command. Delendick asked Downey if the jet fuel from the plane had blown up, thus causing the South Tower to collapse. According to Delendick, Downey "said at that point he thought there were bombs up there because it was too even."

Fire Chief Mike Antonucci, Downey's best friend, said that Downey's hobby was "To study building collapses, what affected the engineering of buildings, how they [would] weaken and how he could respond and stay safe."

The weight of Downey's eyewitness testimony and his conclusion that bombs brought down the south tower is of massive significance as we approach the anniversary of 9/11, a date of mourning for Downey's family due to the fact that he was tragically killed later that day following the collapse of the north tower as he tried to help others escape.



Coming from a senior firefighter, this claim is significant enough. But it is even more so because Downey was no ordinary firefighter. Prior to 9/11, he had "commanded rescue operations at many difficult and complex disasters, including the Oklahoma City Bombing, the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing, and many natural disasters worldwide." As the chief of the FDNY Special Operations Command, he'd pioneered techniques for urban rescue and responding to terrorist attacks. "He was so respected, so beloved," according to CBS News, that "his men nicknamed him 'god.'"

Of most importance is that one of Downey's areas of expertise was building collapses. 9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer referred to Downey as a "very, very respected expert on building collapse." Robert Ingram, a battalion chief in the New York Fire Department, has called him "the premiere collapse expert in the country." And Fire Chief Mike Antonucci, who was a best friend of Downey's, said he "was probably the most knowledgeable person on building collapses there was. That was his [hobby], to study building collapses--what affected the engineering of buildings, how they [would] weaken and how he could respond and stay safe."

And this 39-year veteran of the New York Fire Department, who was the most highly decorated firefighter in its history, initially believed the South Tower had come down due to explosives, because the collapse had been "too even." Unfortunately, Ray Downey is not with us today, as he was killed when the North Tower collapsed at 10:28

Here is the link.

While have enormous respect for Ray Downey and his career - one
must be careful of a spur of the moment comment in a chaotic situation
of incomplete and contradicting information. If he had said this in
the days afterward would be different, but in such a chaotic atmosphere
where nobody knew much of what had happened and all sort of
rumors floating about (remember being in my firehouse in NJ listening
to radio transmissions from WTC - that afternoon crews were being
told to be careful of biologic agents in ruins) . Remember the rule the
first reports are often wrong and exaggerted.

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
Delendick asked Downey if the jet fuel from the plane had blown up, thus causing the South Tower to collapse. According to Delendick, Downey "said at that point he thought there were bombs up there because it was too even."

It's remarkable that Delendick came back from the dead so fast. Given that he was killed by the first collapse, that of WTC 2.

Fire Chief Mike Antonucci, Downey's best friend, said that Downey's hobby was "To study building collapses, what affected the engineering of buildings, how they [would] weaken and how he could respond and stay safe."

The weight of Downey's eyewitness testimony and his conclusion that bombs brought down the south tower is of massive significance as we approach the anniversary of 9/11, a date of mourning for Downey's family due to the fact that he was tragically killed later that day following the collapse of the north tower as he tried to help others escape.

Given that he said he "thought there were bombs up there" to someone before any tower had collapsed was obviously unrelated to the collapses. The fact that he died within the hour does not allow ANYONE to put words into Downey's mouth.

Coming from a senior firefighter, this claim is significant enough. But it is even more so because Downey was no ordinary firefighter. Prior to 9/11, he had "commanded rescue operations at many difficult and complex disasters, including the Oklahoma City Bombing, the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing, and many natural disasters worldwide." As the chief of the FDNY Special Operations Command, he'd pioneered techniques for urban rescue and responding to terrorist attacks. "He was so respected, so beloved," according to CBS News, that "his men nicknamed him 'god.'"

Totally irrelevant. He had no knowledge of how WTC 2 collapsed and died when WTC 1 collapsed.

And Fire Chief Mike Antonucci, who was a best friend of Downey's, said he "was probably the most knowledgeable person on building collapses there was. That was his [hobby], to study building collapses--what affected the engineering of buildings, how they [would] weaken and how he could respond and stay safe."

Still irrelevant.

And this 39-year veteran of the New York Fire Department, who was the most highly decorated firefighter in its history, initially believed the South Tower had come down due to explosives, because the collapse had been "too even." Unfortunately, Ray Downey is not with us today, as he was killed when the North Tower collapsed at 10:28

You goofed by claiming he said that to a man who actually died later in the first collapse. Obviously, no collapse had yet taken place. Furthermore, there were MANY people who thought bombs were going off in the buildings before the collpases.

Once again, quotes are are misapplied, and claims are made about eyewitnesses who had no ability to analyze the collapses because they died in them. And 9/11 Truthers use first impressions of those who cannot speak for themselves as gospel, as fully scientific evidence of what happened.

Amazing.

Originally posted by Nola213
Funny video.

A fire chief from FDNY discussing 911 and the collapse of skyscrapers killing hundreds of his brothers strikes you as funny?

Originally posted by Nola213
Then the old guy , not knowing he's totally shooting Mark down says, well it would have to be the "Building Chief" who would give that order to the firefighters. Only he could give the order. So who was this man. Was never mentioned. Great reporting guys!

Classic. Two guys trying to sell a story and they hadn't got thier stuff together. I bet i could get that 75 year old guy, shouting inside job if you let me sit with him for an hour.

Classic? It's called the truth. You were not there Nola. Chief Scheueuman WAS there. For someone REALLY seeking the truth they would be alittle more interested in what he has to say. Maybe not take is as Gospel (like truthers do with thruther leaders) but listen.

Originally posted by Nola213
Anyhow, We would need to find out who is the Chief of building 7, who obviously gave word to evacuate.

We dont need to find out. It has been common knowledge for over 6 years. Chief Nigro was in charge of WTC7. This was after Chief Peter Ganci was killed in the collapse. Chief Nigro gave the evacuation order:

"The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building's integrity was in serious doubt."

[Fire Engineering magazine, 10/2002]

Originally posted by Nola213Obviously reffering to the building. I'm sure Larry doesn't know industry slang, but the demo guy who told him that does, and so he repeated it. Also , contrary to this shady mediator, I found that "Pull it" is a term used by Many Demo companies, world over, there was even a good 3 minutes, or a 10 minute Demo video I watched devoted to it.

Please list the the names of the demo company that use this slang to take a building down with explosives. We all know that the word pull can be usedto pull column out of a building to assist in a collapse. (as in WTC 6 i believe) What I am asking for is a list of names of building demo companies that use that term for bringing down a building with explosives.

The rest of your post is filled with rants because the truth this hero of that day speaks of does not fit your theory.

reply to post by jthomas


It is amazing that after you Jthomas have pronounced him dead that he rose yet again to give his testimony to:

WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FATHER JOHN DELENDICK
Interview Date: December 6, 2001

Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins

We heard a rumbling noise, and it
appeared that that first tower, the south tower,
had exploded, the top of it. That's what I saw,
what a lot of us saw. We ran down underneath the
Financial Center.
Q. The garages behind you?
A. The garages.
We were followed by that cloud, that
dark black cloud. It was very difficult to
breathe, very difficult to see.
I stopped running or I stopped going
down when it leveled off. There was like a ramp
that went down, and I stopped at the bottom ramp
where it leveled off. Bill Feehan was next to
me. Ray Downey was over there too, because they
both started talking -- I knew it was them
because they were talking, so I knew.
I remember asking Ray Downey was it the
jet fuel that blew up. He said at that point he
thought there were bombs up there because it was
too even. As we've since learned, it was the jet
fuel that was dropping down that caused all this.
But he said it was too even.
Q. Symmetrical?
J. DELENDICK 6
A. So his original thought was that he
thought it was a bomb up there as well.
We then started walking up, back up. I
was with Bill Feehan. I'm not sure where Ray
Downey went. I understand Pete Ganci found a
stairwell, went up a stairwell and went back to
the lobby, back to the command post where we
were.
Bill and I stopped a few times on the
ramp going up. There were some firefighters who
had fallen there. I don't know who they were. I
didn't really get to see their faces. You
couldn't really see much. You trip over them is
how --

So we have the premier building collapse expert in the country or world onsite as a direct eyewitness and he says he thinks there are bombs up there and the collapse is too symetrical. I guess he's not expert enough for you Jthomas. Why don't you ask the amaaaaazing randi what you think?

Here is the link to the interview.

reply to post by CaptainObvious



You forgot Chief Nigro's quote where he states that he ordered the evacuation of the firefighters in WTC 7 without speaking to the building owner.

So, exactly who was Silverstein talking about when he says "I remember getting a call from the ..err...fire chief" And "I said we've lost so much life the best thing to do would be to pull it"

Who is this fire chief that called Silverstein and asked him what to do with his men?


[edit on 3/2/2008 by Griff]

[edit on 3/2/2008 by Griff]

Originally posted by jthomas
Get back to us when they have corrected these errors so we can move on to the others. I am confident you have influence at AE911Truth.

Actually, if I had any influence at AE911Truth, there wouldn't be any errors.

Just what is known as the thruth. No supposition. I believe what is known as truth is enough to lay the case that the towers and 7 could have been helped.

Edit: wrong thread where Sirius the dog was mentioned.

[edit on 3/2/2008 by Griff]

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
reply to post by jthomas

 

It is amazing that after you Jthomas have pronounced him dead that he rose yet again to give his testimony to:

WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FATHER JOHN DELENDICK
Interview Date: December 6, 2001

Transcribed by Laurie A. Collins

We heard a rumbling noise, and it
appeared that that first tower, the south tower,
had exploded, the top of it. That's what I saw,
what a lot of us saw. We ran down underneath the
Financial Center.
Q. The garages behind you?
A. The garages.
We were followed by that cloud, that
dark black cloud. It was very difficult to
breathe, very difficult to see.
I stopped running or I stopped going
down when it leveled off. There was like a ramp
that went down, and I stopped at the bottom ramp
where it leveled off. Bill Feehan was next to
me. Ray Downey was over there too, because they
both started talking -- I knew it was them
because they were talking, so I knew.
I remember asking Ray Downey was it the
jet fuel that blew up. He said at that point he
thought there were bombs up there because it was
too even. As we've since learned, it was the jet
fuel that was dropping down that caused all this.
But he said it was too even.
Q. Symmetrical?
J. DELENDICK 6
A. So his original thought was that he
thought it was a bomb up there as well.
We then started walking up, back up. I
was with Bill Feehan........

So we have the premier building collapse expert in the country or world onsite as a direct eyewitness and he says he thinks there are bombs up there and the collapse is too symetrical. I guess he's not expert enough for you Jthomas. Why don't you ask the amaaaaazing randi what you think?

Here is the link to the interview.

I would assume that JThomas confused the two names. Downey is dead. Now, take a step back and read the interview you posted.

I bolded some parts of the interview.

We heard a rumbling noise (nothing about any pre collapse explosion)

Appeared (To seem or look to be: appeared unhappy)

Thought there were bomb (a judgment, opinion, or belief)

Original thought (created, undertaken, or presented for the first time)

Quite simply this was his thoughts as the events happened. Prior to any:

1.exact knowledge of the damage from the air crafts
2. knowledge of the extent of the damage the fires were causing.
3. investigation of any kind.

Downy's thoughts at the time were "original thoughts".
You also called Downey a premire building expert in the country or world. Really. Yes, but not in Controlled demolitions. Downey was an AMAZING man... a REAL hero. His pioneering efforts in the field of technical rescue and was the unofficial leader of the FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Teams he trained for disaster response throughout the United States and the world. Chief Downey commanded rescue operations at many difficult and complex disasters, including the Oklahoma City Bombing, the 1993 World Trade Center Bombing, and many natural disasters worldwide. I have yet to see where he was listed as an expert in building demolition.


Oh, and Randi does not participate in the 911 forums at that site. (maybe one post to talk about Willie Rodrequiez)

Originally posted by Griff
reply to post by CaptainObvious

 

You forgot Chief Nigro's quote where he states that he ordered the evacuation of the firefighters in WTC 7 without speaking to the building owner.

So, exactly who was Silverstein talking about when he says "I remember getting a call from the ..err...fire chief" And "I said we've lost so much life the best thing to do would be to pull it"

Who is this fire chief that called Silverstein and asked him what to do with his men?

Dont butcher the quote Griff.

"I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."

–Larry Silverstein

He doesn't mention Nigro at all.....

Here is a pretty recent update (February 16th 2008)

I am well aware of Mr. Silverstein's statement, but to the best of my recollection, I did not speak to him on that day and I do not recall anyone telling me that they did either. That doesn't mean he could not have spoken to someone from FDNY, it just means that I am not aware of it.

-Chief Nigrosource

Silverstein never mentions (by name)who called him that day. This statement provides proof that it wasn't Nigro.




[edit on 2-3-2008 by CaptainObvious]

reply to post by CaptainObvious


Has Silverstein ever come forward to clear this up and give us a name of exactly "WHO" he talked to regarding this? Or did he just leave it a mystery>>?

reply to post by talisman


He has come forward (through a spokesperson) to clearify what his quote meant. As far as I know, he hasn't stated the officers name. Honestly, I feel it is irrelevant seeing that Nigro clearly states that he is the one that ordered the evacuation. My opinion? Silverstein may have been doing a little grandstanding for the documentary. You know how inflated the ego's can be of billionaires.

thanks,

C.O.

Originally posted by Leo Strauss
reply to post by jthomas

 

It is amazing that after you Jthomas have pronounced him dead that he rose yet again to give his testimony to:

WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
FATHER JOHN DELENDICK
Interview Date: December 6, 2001

Ah, yes, you are correct, wrong priest. I thought it was Father Mychal Judge who died when WTC 2 collapsed. Just goes to show what happens when sone jumps to conclusions like 9/11 Truthers.

joeverica.blogspot.com...

So we have the premier building collapse expert in the country or world onsite as a direct eyewitness and he says he thinks there are bombs up there and the collapse is too symetrical. I guess he's not expert enough for you Jthomas. Why don't you ask the amaaaaazing randi what you think?

I go to the source instead of the hopeless 911blogger.com, to wit:

Commissioner Von Essen, you had, according to the interview you conducted with the 9/11 staff, one of the last conversations with Ray Downey, an expert--very, very respected expert on building collapse and he says something to you along the lines of ,"Boss, I think these buildings could collapse." How does that inform your decision-making or your communication with other people and what is the context of this remark?

MR. VON ESSEN: He said that to me, it was right after the second tower was hit. We were still in the lobby. We all heard a rumbling. We didn't know what it was, then it was confirmed that it was the second tower. It was also confirmed that the Sears Tower was hit, that the Mall of America was hit, that the Pentagon was hit and that there was another plane that wasn't accounted for.

So you couldn't really go by confirmations. You know, misinformation in the heat of battle like that is very--is common. But we knew that the South Tower had been hit. And Ray said to me just--and what always gave me strength afterwards was that he was so knowledgeable, and if there was a person in the country that you would go to to ask for advice in a situation like this, it would be him. Of all the hundreds of phenomenal fire chiefs in the country, Ray was top of the line when it came to special operations and collapses and things like that. So for him to say to me so matter-of-factly, just looking at me and saying, "Boss, these buildings can collapse"--and it wasn't, you know, like he would say to me in a different situation, "Tommy, get everybody out of here, make sure that the mayor knows, make sure Ganci knows," you know, it wasn't like that. It was, "These buildings can collapse," which gave me the sense that there was a lot of time that we had to do what he wanted to do and that was to get everybody out. And he knew we had guys that were way up and he knew we had to get them all out.

And I truly believe that these chiefs, and there's no better, so you can make your experiments in a laboratory, in a classroom or wherever, but people in the scene, in a battle, like your generals in battle, these chiefs made decisions based on their best information, their best experience. You lost tremendous experience that day. These guys thought they had a lot of time. Maybe it was going to be later that afternoon, but it could come down but they had time to effectuate the rescue and get our own guys back out.

www.9-11commission.gov...
(bolding mine)

Now, you have a choice:

1) You can say von Essen is a liar.
2) You can claim (as 9/11 Truthers do with all the firemen at WTC 7) that Ray Downey had foreknowledge and was "in on it," or
3) Admit you don't have much to go on.

What's your choice, Leo?

Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by jthomas
Get back to us when they have corrected these errors so we can move on to the others. I am confident you have influence at AE911Truth.

Actually, if I had any influence at AE911Truth, there wouldn't be any errors.

Just what is known as the thruth. No supposition. I believe what is known as truth is enough to lay the case that the towers and 7 could have been helped.

Edit: wrong thread where Sirius the dog was mentioned.

[edit on 3/2/2008 by Griff]

I'll reprint your post:

"Please go through the AE911truth website and point out some errors that they have made in regards to 9/11. It has also been posted for some time now and not a single person has found anything. If you find an error pertaining to 9/11, I will personally e-mail them and ask them to make the appropriate corrections."

Well, you agreed to e-mail them. Don't you think such egregious lies as I pointed out only ruins their credibility?

Now, let's examine what Gage says in full at the end:

"How much longer must we endure NIST's cover-up of how Building 7 was actually destroyed? Millions of Americans, including the 230+ architects and engineers and 600 others of AE911Truth.org, demand that NIST come clean with a full-throttle, fully resourced and transparent forensic investigation of the evidence of the controlled demolition of Building 7."

www.ae911truth.org...

Would you like to explain how Gage & Pals could possibly want an independent "investigation" when he is explicitly asserts that NIST is covering up "Undisputed Facts (that) Point to the Controlled Demolition of WTC 7?

In my parts, we call that a Kangaroo Court and Show Trial that would garner high praise from North Korea.

reply to post by CaptainObvious


It is relevant, considering all the publicity regarding his comments. Why hasn't Silverstein cleared up exactly *WHO* he was talking to? I don't see how anyone can say that is irrelevant.

It is such an event that the event itself demands clarity.

Silverstein offered none concerning the name of the person involved. It is also important to know this so we can determine if Silverstein was telling the truth.

Originally posted by talisman
reply to post by CaptainObvious

 

It is relevant, considering all the publicity regarding his comments. Why hasn't Silverstein cleared up exactly *WHO* he was talking to? I don't see how anyone can say that is irrelevant.

It is such an event that the event itself demands clarity.

Silverstein offered none concerning the name of the person involved. It is also important to know this so we can determine if Silverstein was telling the truth.

It is not relevant whatt you don't know or don't want to believe.

Silverstein was quoted in a Nova interview months later, taped, maybe edited, and kept it neat and short as required.

You're flogging a horse that died years ago. This has been beaten to death.

Move on.

reply to post by jthomas



Excuse me, but Silverstein is acting as his own witness. *WHO* did he talk to about the order? It is relevant and then we can have *THAT* person verify what he is saying.

Your just assuming Silverstein is telling the truth, I don't know that. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.


[edit on 2-3-2008 by talisman]

Originally posted by jthomas

Would you like to explain how Gage & Pals could possibly want an independent "investigation" when he is explicitly asserts that NIST is covering up "Undisputed Facts (that) Point to the Controlled Demolition of WTC 7?

In my parts, we call that a Kangaroo Court and Show Trial that would garner high praise from North Korea.

and yet, that's EXACTLY what the NIST did with their investation of the twin tower collapses.

they started the 'fact' that the buildings obviously collapsed under their own weight, and then used computers to develop an unrealistic, super-tweaked model that would BEGIN the collapse, and then ignored the propagation of collapse in the study which was supposedly supposed to make recommendations for building design which would prevent progressive collapse.

in other words, not only did they not answer the question of 'twoofers', but they did not even TOUCH on the subject of design improvements to prevent progressive collapse.

progressive means the SEQUENCE of events that bring the building from the sky to earth, NOT just the MILLISECONDS of the 'collapse initiation'.

stick that in your pouch and smoke it.

Originally posted by talisman
reply to post by jthomas

 

Excuse me, but Silverstein is acting as his own witness. *WHO* did he talk to about the order? It is relevant and then we can have *THAT* person verify what he is saying.

Your just assuming Silverstein is telling the truth, I don't know that. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.

Who cares if he isn't.. so he lied.... big deal ! He's a rich egotistical jerk! (possibly) so what? The guy was probably blowing smoke up the producers as*. so what? This by ANY stretch does not implicate him in the collapse of his building. Like JThomas said... time to move on.