Proof if there's GOD?

Originally posted by Donoso
In short:

No, there's absolutely no evidence for the existence of ANY sort of supreme being that can be labeled "God".

There is however empirical evidence as to the existence of gravity. Why not label gravity as your God?

well. your getting there. gravity is a fundamental, unchanging principle. it can be calculated to a minimum and maximum, measured, etc.

this is proof, in my opinion, that an intelligent process occured. how else can you have these designs .. physics, gravity, the speed of light, photons, black holes, etc. all the "rules of life", utterly unchangable, set in stone soto speak. why is this the way it is, the way life is?

the answer? it needs to be, or else it would be impossible for "God" to experience the infinity that is his creation of physical matter, which God does through each ventricle of the collective human conciousness. This means God is looking through your eyes as you look through them, and you exist so that he can. when you feel pain, so does God, that is the point of existence. When we die, it's like that particular "channel" is off air, but the TV is still there, its still playing. And best of all, you, the film on the "channel", is still preserved in a proverbial "protective case". In short, you exist beyond death of flesh in spirit, aka your persona. Your portion of the conciousness, small as it is, once created has existed, and that which has existed will always be, in a sense. But as to the nature of the spiritual world, the afterlife, and anything remotely specific about God, we know nothing.

I have more faith and belief that God is out there than UFOs Just Google proof of God or angels.................Plenty of evidence. Seems to me harder not to believe that believe. People that dont believe in God always seem empty, and sad to me. They will swear up and down there is no God.....Until they need help.

reply to post by jimbo999


Thanks for the post there jimbo666. I did offer proof. You are the proof. The fact you exist, LIFE jimbo life is the proof. Creation is all around you it was not an accident.

Does God exist? Good question.

On the one hand you have people saying, all the beautiful things in the world must be because of god no? They just have to be. It couldn't of just happened that way. There has to be a divine purpose.

Then on the other hand you have other people saying, how could god have allowed some 3000 innocent people die on 9-11. If there was a god he wouldn't of let that happen. So since it happened there isn't one.

Well unfortunately the truth is that we'll never know if there is or is not a god up there. For all we know god could be running an experiment or be some sick bastard with a sadistic streak. Or the being we think is god isn't really god at all because he's the other guy. Maybe god is a child and is watching us to learn how to grow up?
Or possibly god is a being of power with no emotions no concept of right or wrong just power. If you think about it. When you have the power to change reality to your liking and create living creatures. After a long time of that you sorta become blasse about things. Maybe god is a creature of pure logic with no emotions. And he's pissed off at everyone in the universe because everyone is acting like a child in his point of view. I guess when you are as old as the universe everyone is a child.

but I digress.

Anyways the whole concept of believing in god is totally subjective. For one person belief of god is so tangible that he can taste it. For someone else it's about as real as a fairy tale.

It's a question of faith. Either you got it or you don't.
And how do you explain or quantify faith?
The reality is that you can't. No more than you could prove that you loved your children or your parents to someone you just met at the airport. He has to have faith that you're not some mad psycho making stuff up.

I remember back in high school we used to say that Religion was Santa Claus for adults. Now I'm not so sure.

I think as I've gotten older I've gained hope that there is a god. However I don't think it's the same as unshakeable faith that there is a god.

In any case I have come to one conclusion about god. Whatever we think we know about him.... well let me just say that it's no where close to right.

Personally I think we are put on this earth to for the following. That's grow up and be the best person you can be and then have children and teach them to be the best person they can be so that they in turn can have children and teach them to be the best people they can be etc. etc. etc.

That's my take on things.
Your take may vary.
2cents.

obtw.. I just had a thought. Something that I found a bit humorous.
All of us guys that believe in UFO'S.
You know we have faith that UFO's exist. However I see everytime when someone posts anything about a ufo they get slammed by debunkers.
It's like we have faith yet we go at things like the inquisition to prove that there's been a heresy commited and to burn the offender at the stake.
I think it's funny that we believe yet don't at the same time.
Don't you think?


[edit on 27-2-2008 by grey580]

I have always felt that if there were an all powerful god and he wanted everyone to know he existed then he could just do something that could only be considered as impossible.

For instance, he could blow the moon up into a million pieces and reconstruct it to form the word YAHWEH. Until he completes such a miraculous act I can only assume he does not wish to be acknowledged.

If he is unable to complete such an act then religious teaching has faulted because he is not as powerful as it claims.

How much proof do you need to come to a conclusion? I'm asking honestly because some people believe easily while others require a huge amount of material to find their answer.

Quote from external source:

"Experience persuades me that the time is right for a direct approach, a single leap into the origins fray. Introducing a biblically based, scientifically verifiable creation model represents such a leap. It packs both a scientific and a spiritual punch. It builds trust, stimulates discussion, relieves unnecessary tension about hidden religious agendas, and turns attention quickly and fruitfully toward testing and predictions."

This quote is by a leading astrophysicist who believes God is the creator of our universe. There are also ample quotes I could give you from the Bible that support recent scientific findings.

If you're vaguely interested in science, may I suggest you look into some of the creation models. If you study science and creation enough, you should come to the conclusion that there has to be an "Intelligent Designer". Most scientists won't go so far as to call the designer "God", but they will admit there has got to be an intelligence beyond our imaginations, at this point, to have put everything together and for it to operate as finely tuned as it does. I realize creation vs evolution is a hot topic, but again, if you study it, I believe you will arrive at the same conclusion I did. There is a God, and the Bible is true.

I don't want to get into another Athiest vs Christianity debate, because, quite frankly, I think it's useless. But if you truly want to know how to find the answers, U2U me and I'll show you where to go.

I_R

reply to post by Nohup


I will try to debate with you Nohup. I'm certainly not good at it and I'm just a baby Christian, but I have foundations for my belief. Ask me any question you want to know, and I'll at least try to answer.

I_R

Originally posted by finnegan
I have always felt that if there were an all powerful god and he wanted everyone to know he existed then he could just do something that could only be considered as impossible.

For instance, he could blow the moon up into a million pieces and reconstruct it to form the word YAHWEH. Until he completes such a miraculous act I can only assume he does not wish to be acknowledged.

I hear this one so much. On the surface it is good, but when you think deeply on it you realize what's wrong with the idea.

If you dwell on the topic, you'll realize sooner or later that if God did perform an "impossible" act to "prove" the existence of itself, it would remove our free will to decide what is and isn't when it comes to God, and it would also remove the grey area for temptation, which we all live in, in which Beelzebub has reign, and "screws with people". Because if God proves that God exists, God can no longer be denied. Who in their right mind would deny God, and an infinite afterlife of bliss, if it were proven to exist without a shadow of a doubt? Only a mentally deranged person who isn't thinking clearly would deny such a thing. This impacts free will so fundamentally that it shakes it to its' core, and this is exactly the purpose of free will, to decide for oneself, no sure-fire evidence will be provided. Even when "the end" comes, it will be possible to interpret all end time events as coincidences, human nature, political events, astronomical events, and so forth. All which happens must fall into the realm of the explainable, the realm of science, even an apocalypse.

[edit on 2/27/2008 by runetang]

God is percevied as truthful and enlightening as indicated in the bible, so he should not try to decieve by blending into events, coincidences and human intervention.

psalm 43
3 Send out your light and your truth;
let them lead me;
let them bring me to your holy hill
and to your dwelling!

Proof? You think, don't you? Therefore something is. That's as close as anyone will ever get. You can create mental metaphors, intellectual hyperrealities, but they are empty images and shadows of ideas. Just simulacra. Whatever it is, one day it will understand itself, and that's it.

Originally posted by jimbo999
reply to post by Christian Voice

 

I think you've got it the wrong way round there - and most reputable scholars would agree with me 100% on this one.

The organisms on this planet - over billions of years - adapted to the conditions on this planet - not the other way around. It's called evolution. And everything science has discovered points to this being the case.

If this planet were further away from the sun, would life have evolved here? Maybe. Maybe not. But there are billions of suns similar to ours out there - any one of them likely to have evolved life forms similar, or even radically different to ours. The probabilities are as endless as the number of stars - and the odds are very good that millions of planets hold intelligent life out there.

Creation??? Nah. Simple chemistry.

J.

I haven't read the 3rd page of this conversation so excuse me if somebody has already made my points.

Because somebody that is intellectual and works at a nice university says something about something, doesn't mean it's right. The only thing that means is that that person has an opinion. And unless that person has all the evidence in the world, he isn't right. He just has an opinion (like everybody else) and that person happens to have a nice title or position.

Einstein (not an atheist) said this:

"At any rate, I am convinced that He [God] does not play dice."

I say Einstein was not an atheist because even though he did not ever mention a specific God he did believe in something. Some people try and steer the conversation away from the actual question asked and get everybody off track. The definition of a God doesn't matter, a God is a God.

It's common sense as Paine puts it. It's in front of us such that I'll quote Einstein yet again. Einstein says that

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the unlimitable superior who reveals Himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God"

Did that quote help anybody? I think not. When people ask a question somebody else shalt not hamper the truth... either by being ignorant, biased, or have an agenda to fulfill.

As somebody said earlier, there is too many coincidences on this great Earth for it to be accidental. Now, some people refute that statement by saying that its just science, everything just happened. We went from a F.A.R.M (Fish, ?, Reptile, Mammal). I won’t intrude too much on that subject and will continue.

I believe another person was trying to say that because we cannot see gravity we should believe in that too. Well, so either you are ignorant (dumb on purpose in Greek) or unaware of your reasoning. Sure, we can’t see God neither can we see Gravity. Does that mean that either do not function? Just because you or I cannot see it doesn’t mean it isn’t working. And just because we don’t see it doesn’t mean it is working. Hope everybody got that,

I try to be as brutally honest as I can because I know what I’m thinking somebody else (and maybe many more) are thinking too and are either too afraid or have some kind of a record to keep. Not yet am I a politician (although I plan to be) that I am worried about my comments nor will I ever be distraught by the content of my comments. I am young (16) and I use these boards to enhance my writing skills and hone my vocabulary.

God is a deeply sensitive subject for me and I will be truthful and say that I haven’t read everybody’s posts but if needed somebody please guide me to a reasonable post ahead of mine; do not worry about posts after this/mine.

Cease to read from other believers their stories; create your own. Experience Jaweh, my God. You will never be the same, believe me. I used to despise God (doesn’t every teenager?) and say that I had all the proof in the world. It took something big to open my eyes to the truth.

Go on today and pray and forgive yourself and you’ll find that EVERYTHING WORKS with God.

Let me tell you what MY God does. And I know it may seem counterintuitive to say that people who post usually post with an agenda. Some may point the finger at me but if I do not mention my God, people will not know WHICH God it is that I am talking to. But you all know the real reason why I do post my God’s name. It’s because I do have an agenda. An agenda to get the Word Of Jesus Christ out. I told you before, I am brutally honest and will NOT excuse myself for my comments.

Wheww! Talk about sidetrack! Ok, here is my story. One of the primary reasons that I believe in my God (the Christian God) is that I was questioned by a friend of mine who has been a Christian for a looong time. He said, have you ever tried to not think about something? What he meant was that if I had ever tried just not thinking about my problems. I had not and that evening I did it. I said, you know what, I’m tired of living my life the way I do. A nice some spice; think of adding spices the way Emeril does it, BAM!

I didn’t worry about my writing skills, what would happen tomorrow, college, my family, my money, the weather, anything! That’s not to say, don’t worry about your homework, God’ll get a #2 pencil and finish it for me, no! Do worry about the now , do help yourself, just know that there will always be ways to help yourself, save yourself because of God. It’s difficult for homosapiens (including myself) to not think about our greedy little selves.

I wish I could go farther into detail but I think I rerouted my post a bit too much to a personal level, but that’s me. It’s difficult to comprehend me without going to the core of my beliefs.

And excuse me for my overextended post. As I said before, I’m really wanting to hone and craft my abilities as a writer and a little less important here, my oratory skills. Any help with those two?

Well now, ther eis no proof. Simple as that. Man is unable to comprehend this being. Plain and simple. religion is wrong for using its name and vicata with such vaguness. Just like how did everything start...its impossible for us to think about. With our common sense of things, its immpossible to explain. Basicly, because with any event, it starts with nothing, and from nothing can come only nothing. Therefore it is futile to try and thing about how it is all here. Now why it is here, thats another story
You tellign em there is no proof of god?
How about life? how about the universe, or planets. Air, every single little thing in the universe is completely unexplainable in the laws of science, leaving only the laws of the all creator. Perhaps this being was created as well, and is part of a larger thing, who knows. But to say there is no proof of god, when life and miracles come upon us every day...that is not a realistic question. God is in every picture, every video, it is every video.
I am not a religious person, but i am spiritual.
I do not deny the existance of the all creator. I do however, conden man for using its name unknowingly, and for thinking he can understand this being

Originally posted by THIseNdsnowoldKings
Perhaps this being was created as well, and is part of a larger thing, who knows.

Exactly. And so far the proof of God seems to be the fact that we exist and think and breathe without explanation. And in order to create us God would have to exist and probably have some sort of a thought process, so that leads to proof that he was created and so forth. Its an infinite string so it has no beginning, but how can we exist if we never had a beginning?

I think Grey hit it out of the park!

It is a VERY subjective belief for many people. If I tell you that I have seen the hue of the room change, or have heard a voice speak the Divine or have felt the Holy Spirit. I can't make you understand that and many would see it as an opportunity to take a shot at me for being a nutcase. It may very well be that you were never meant to know Him or understand those that do. That is not for me to decide. And just because you don't have a relationship with your Creator today, doesn't mean you won't tomorrow.

I mean I was 32 when I asked Christ into my life (I'm 37 now). If you were to tell me that I would be involved in a deep meaningful relationship with my Creator at 15 years of age, I probably would have laughed at you. Nonetheless it happened for me and to answer the OPs question... No! I cannot provide you any tangible proof of the existence of God. I need my heart right where it is.

I doubt it helped you any but it's what I got. Best of luck to you friend.

reply to post by beastamerica


When I turned 12 Mum asked if I still wanted to go to church, which I had been doing since I turned 6.
I replied no way.
When I was 15 I began looking around and researching alternate religions.
As I grew older I gradually realised that all seemed to be corrupted by human desires or dreams and imaginations.
Either way the religious answer seemed too simplistic.
I dropped the subject for many years until one niight in the Australian bush I saw a ufo well that convinced me that there is more to life than religions could ever tell us.
So I researched some more and I am not afraid to say that in my honest opinion that the Billy Meier Story and his Mission does it for me

cycles..... we all have a begining an a end.

in my understanding of life so far, all 27 years of it, i relly feel we live multiple if not infinite amounts of lives on this planet in other realms on other planets, an for all we know all this could be a huge experiment to find out what life or situation would better be considered a finite spot to continiously exsist, or that we simple live these multiple lives to just do what god wanted, to experience his creations... if i have learnt anything it is that creators love to watch there works enjoyed and used.... an they love problems too becuz they get to solve them,

let us jump away from this view an take a more overall appraoch at the bigger ring of things...i feel we live multiple lives, an that at the end of each life we assemble in a homebase like realm now, the light tunnels we hear about when u die could very wel be a wormhole for your souls energy to pass thru an u would float seeing how you arent a physical being anymore, now you goto this homebase place, a review your life an others an either wait there for whomever acting as their guardian , or you can move onto another live, but that you also have the choice to just move into a vacation from living lives and sit back an do whatever visit family so forth, cuz with all these lives your gonna have alot of loved ones, soon could be everyone is your famliy back to the all of us are a part of god thing,

Now why would we live all these lives? honestly i do think its to experience what god has made, show hiom what can be cool an fun an helpful an what isnt, an god might make a new one while everyone is chillin in these others.... Who knows but really i love the idea lol would be a great movie hahaha

But when it all comes down to it, we are some seriously insanely awesome beings lol not just humans but plants and animals alike we just simply rock, an the mtns and water an other landscapes are breathtaking, why do we find these so awesome, becuz even thoe we know volcanos and earthquakles an water have done so, its a deep seedem understanding that something is in control of it all...... and we awe at that


God made nature for us to live in, an in nature no apartment complexes are there most a single family units lol... so much could be said on this thread an yet we still would only grow more towards the idea that god is there, becuz we will continue to debate about something we feel strongly about, an well again that itself tells a strong tale.....

[edit on 27-2-2008 by Trance Optic]

reply to post by johnnyrobbo



Billy Meier is a proven HOAX. I only want to help you see truth.

Please do some research!!! Here at ATS he is a joke.

I used to believe him too. I did some research, read this post
www.abovetopsecret.com...


Read this thread www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread277472/pg1

Peace

Originally posted by grey580
Does God exist? Good question.

On the one hand you have people saying, all the beautiful things in the world must be because of god no? They just have to be. It couldn't of just happened that way. There has to be a divine purpose.

Then on the other hand you have other people saying, how could god have allowed some 3000 innocent people die on 9-11. If there was a god he wouldn't of let that happen. So since it happened there isn't one.

Look, Grey. I cannot make you nor anybody else think. I could explain why God allows such events, but some people could never really understand it. That's not an insult and should be taken as advice. Advice is good. I think the majority of people can reason why or why not God allows such tragedies; but only a select few can really understand why... and a larger portion, much more than those who know why or can only reason why or why not can read why or why not it happens from those who can really understand why.

I don't want to write a lot, so saying that, why don't people use Google to read articles about why God lets thing happen. And besides, I'm tired and would use up the 4000 character limit

Well unfortunately the truth is that we'll never know if there is or is not a god up there. For all we know god could be running an experiment or be some sick bastard with a sadistic streak. Or the being we think is god isn't really god at all because he's the other guy. Maybe god is a child and is watching us to learn how to grow up?
Or possibly god is a being of power with no emotions no concept of right or wrong just power. If you think about it. When you have the power to change reality to your liking and create living creatures. After a long time of that you sorta become blasse about things. Maybe god is a creature of pure logic with no emotions. And he's pissed off at everyone in the universe because everyone is acting like a child in his point of view. I guess when you are as old as the universe everyone is a child.

True, we are never going to know until we die; and don't get me started on those O.B.E! lol

It depends on which God you look at Grey, different Gods have different stances on things. Each religion has a book to follow, and although some people might find discrepancies in the text, that person never goes in deep and learn the real reason for that passage. And no, I do not believe our text has been tampered with.

And no, if God really wanted to get pissed (and he already has already) he would send a flood and kill hundreds maybe thousands of people. So I disagree with you there, God is as wise as He is powerful.

You're completely right. Although there is sufficient knowledge that evolution is wrong and Creation is right, you have to have faith to at least choose a God.

How I chose my religion is by looking at the people around me. My parents are Catholic while I am a Evangelical Christian. Sure, the Catholicism religion is the biggest but so is Islam. Then you have to look at the CONTENT of the religion to SEE what they actually teach.

Sometimes people are to blind (metaphorically) too see the plain honest truth!

I disagree, there is a REASON why there is the religions there are on the TERRE (anybody parle Francais?)

And lastly Grey; your right! If you were a believer in my God you would find that is exactly what He teaches and if do decide to follow Us, then you're life would be full of wisdom, knowledge, and would less painful because God has explained everything already; knowing that we would commit the same mistake and saving us the hassles. That's not to say we aren't going to have difficulties!

"Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God."

-Heywood Broun

"I always admired atheists. I think it takes a lot of faith."

-Diane Frolov and Andrew Schneider

I know some of the atheists are going to get upset, so go ahead and throw ME some quotes.

I'm going to really stick it out there with this one, but hey thats just me. I never could keep my damn mouth shut!

It was asked why God would allow something like 9/11 to happen? Has anyone considered or experienced the good that has come from that tragic day. I speak not about it bringing out the best in people faced with a difficult situation, that would be too shallow. I speak more about how it showed us the worst in people. Not just the fact that these terrorist did this to us (if you choose to believe that) but rather it sent out a warning to those that would hear, that something was severely wrong. Many people knew this long before 9/11, and many immediately after 9/11, Others like myself still even longer after 9/11. My point is, for me it came eventually, and before it was too late as a warning and as I will further explain - a source of encouragement.

This is where it gets subjective as I discussed earlier in this thread. I believe there is a message that God wanted to share with us on this event and the world events that continue to unfold before our eyes. I believe this because I heard it in prayer.

You will either understand this or you won't, it won't make it any less real for me. What I heard.

"Now that you know of all the horrible things going on in the world, know also that I am with you. Now continue to bring them to Me."

Thats it. I cant make it any clearer than that. Interpret away, or just tell me to get bent, but I faithfully shared my experience.

To my fellow brothers and sisters: It is not the time to judge others, their beliefs, appearances or iniquities. You know what you have to do.