What has meaning?

I've been thinking very deeply about consciousness and the soul and matters of the mind a lot lately. One thing you inevitably realize when looking too far down the rabbithole, so to speak, is that there is one consciousness, one being. The law of one, we are all sons of God, yin- yang, one heart, one love, all that flowery jazz. If we are ALL one consciousness, then we are ALL God, we are the immortal, we are the beginning, the end, and everything in between.

Looking around at all the illusion, you begin to notice the obvious things which are only illusions because we allow them to be, and you wonder why we let these institutions of thought (think about the meanings of words...institution.....don't they call prisons institutions?) propagate farther and farther like we have? There seems to be purpose on both sides of the fence, but is either purpose more...purposeful?

Let's look briefly at two of these thought prisons, see what meaning we can find.

So, basically, you have all these religions, and there are hints of truth here and there, just enough to make you wonder whether the idea that created all of these religions was not very similar to the one I have now.... but those little important bits aren't what's being emphasized. You wouldn't even know what these important bits of info were if you were just a "regular joe". So, for instance, in the Bible, when Jesus asks his followers basically why they were so amazed by him because everything he could do, they could do to, and basically asks them why they think of God as someone so separate from themselves, who really remembers that part? I don't know how I remember it. I haven't seen an open Bible in a long long time. All I know is that I've never heard any pastor or whatever mention that part of the Bible.

IT seems that the real thing wrong with religions is that they teach separation. They clearly define who's "good" and who's "evil". They make humans seem weak and stupid, compared to the Gods and the Angels, and GOD and such. They dictate the way people act and think. By the very definition of the word, religion is mind control. It's nothing holy. It uses flowery imagery and a loose interpretation of philosophy to paint a false portrait of our own helplessly short mortality. FEAR of death. My human feelings aside, does separation and fear have meaning? Could it be just as beautiful as one love, in a way?

I don't have to say much about nation/state/whatever politics because religions are so similar.... flowery words, empty promises, all while forcing their worldview down your throat. You may not like it, but eventually, you'll accept it, if they say your food, shelter, and family is in danger. Do they have the right over us? Is this a danger? Or is it a necessity?

Religion and politics.....mind control. That's their meaning.... but why is that important?

Why does control and power matter so much to us? Why do we get angry when we are forced? Why do some give meaning to rebellion, while others find just as much purpose in conformity?

So, back to my original point. If everything is one.....and the illusion of separation is just another shade in the spectrum..... then what really matters?

Does it matter that we have all these worldwide faceless entities putting protocol in place to keep us helpless and dependent?

Does it matter today whether I kill a man, or whether I save a man?

If everything is one, and all separation is just an illusion, isn't that a lonely thought?

Is the reason one man kills, yet another man saves.... is the reason that there are two men opposing each other in the first place.... to protect us from our only-ness? (i say onlyness, because to be lonely, you have to have the ability to be alone....but if you are the only hing in existance, there is no one, two, or three, there just is)

Why does religion mean so much to people? It's an escape. We ascribe meaning to it, and we attatch ourselves to it, because what else would we truly have to live for if we didn't? Religion can mean just about anything that gives your life purpose.

What's the meaning of purpose? Is it just another illusion?

What I really wanna know is, what is the purpose of one? where's the purpose after the illusion of what our idea of purpose is fades?

I find it strange that no one answered your post....deep questions

I am divided between no meaning is the ultimate meaning or finding that everything, past now future, is one is THE meaning.

I have had moments when I "saw" that everything was illusion. Years back in the subway I suddenly realized that all around me was real on just a physical level but that it was "staged" so to say and that lurking behind everything there was the real reality.

Years ago I was also very much aware that other realities were discernable through are normal reality. But then I became older, occupied with earning money etc and I sort of forgot all this.

Maybe the ultimate meaning of everything is to stay aware of truth?

I think that the reason people didn't answer my post is because I pose more questions than I do answers. People are looking for answers all the time. They miss the important questions that could get them there, because they don't see that the question is part of the answer. It's hard nowadays, living from day to day, month to month, year to year, just trying to survive suckling on the often dry teet of the system, in an ever expanding, evermore demanding (i misspelled that at first. prolly should've kept it deminding), faster and faster paced world. People think the answer is provided to them without having to ask the question, thinking somebody else will figure it out, thinking it silly to ask a question that's not gunna put food on the table or money in the bank or cars in the garage.

How can you think about the nature of reality when you are in constant fear of being the victim of one of these bizarre public shootings that have been flourishing lately... as a matter of fact, yet another shooting left 4 dead and the shooter shooting himself (AGAIN!!!) in Tennesssee just today.... which is just... I don't even wanna get into that right now, but I'm outraged by these seemingly "random acts of violence"we've seen happening off the charts lately. But that's for another thread...

I mean... we're still human, so to pretend like things have no meaning TO US in this current form we have chosen to take is silly. We all have attached meaning to things, and it's not like I'm proposing that we can stop nurturing the things that we care about and just let everything float up in the air or fall apart. I'm just saying that we should ask more questions, and stop always looking for instant answers.

Because questions bring about meaning.

If everything weren't exactly the way it is right at this very second, it wouldn't be at all. So, if every subatomic particle is just as meaningful as every World Trade Center and lives lost thereof, it all has the exact same amount of meaning..... and whatever all of this is, this all encompassing thing that we are... is no better and no worse than the individuals that make it up. The fundamental flaw with religion is that God is never portrayed as needing his creations as much as his creations need him. God is never "humanized" down to regular joe level. I doubt even "God" knows why he/she/it is here.

I get the feeling that, at that level of absolute creation, underneath all the layers of thought evolution, and in turn physical evolution, that we are all something that is just completely beyond our capacity to comprehend it.

If you ever get a chance glimpse of "the thousand petal lotus" that is talked about in Kundalini.... you'll understand exactly why the answers to the makeup of reality are so frightening to us. I can't even make words to describe what that is, but it's something you'll never forget. I believe that what makes up reality is SO frightening and foreign to us, that it is entirely understandable to me why all of these hidden hands are trying so hard to keep people from it. Maybe they aren't evil people hell bent on world domination. Maybe they're just afraid of reality losing it's meaning.

I honestly don't know what society as a whole would do if it were to become exposed en masse to this what I will now refer to as "thousand petal lotus" thing that lies directly underneath this reality, that binds it together like some sort of weird 3-dimensional spiderweb. Do we have the capacity to decipher it, or would it break apart our minds and cause us to go completely psycho and never return again?

How good would it be for the survival of humanity if everyone went crazy as a result of seeing this "thousand petal lotus"-type matrix that binds together physical reality?

if our computers today use binary code, think of the universal computer and what type of encoding and decrytion IT uses. It would be like if all the sudden, all you could think about or see or hear or feel turned into indecipherable multi-dimensional quintillionary code (as opposed to binary).

We're..... a meaningless stream of code being decrypted by a program in the universal mainframe.

The implications of it frightens the Dickens outta me, because like...

I guess it's just a natural reaction when faced with something so massive that our brains can't even decrypt the information of its existence.

So, once again... what has meaning?

Better yet, what is meaning in the first place?

I think it's a meaningless stream of code being processed by our brain in a way where it holds more priority over other lines of meaningless code because it is what is needed most to carry out the tasks assigned to that program.

Obviously, I struggle to find words to describe something that is beyond human capacity to understand.... so pardon me if I can't sound exact or scientific while trying to describe something our brains won't allow us to know.

Quel unomo bellinari thuo menticia volo malrenitiasas vendiso. Mithas mirna endist thuo pellia tonacatasia venna mistae. Finsan muelus robanato rista man calliaso mericanan.

My brain is not to keen on how to decipher Latin. Or is that Italian. GOD WHY!?!?!?!

thats the secret of enlightenment, knowing why and how nothing makes perfect sense.


have you ever read the Bhagavad-Gita ? or perhaps the tao te ching?

I think the question is one that can only be answered with a smile or an ascetic life. or at the very least, meditation.

it is beyond human comprehension, but the point where you realize your not just human, you are consciousness, that, is when the rest of the doors open.

and even then still, there are many more.

good luck on your journey! you will not need it!

What is logic ?

Ask yourself that one.

Regards
Lee

Originally posted by indierockalien
I think that the reason people didn't answer my post is because I pose more questions than I do answers.

The reason you are not getting many responses is that ATS is flooded, mostly with garbage. (No indictment intended here. I'm generating my share of garbage also.)

However, there are a few gems, like this thread, which make it worth the effort to dig. Be assured, this is a great post and your questions give me great pause. I will be pondering this thread for a while, and will be referring back to it.

Starred and flagged!

Originally posted by Buck Division

Originally posted by indierockalien
I think that the reason people didn't answer my post is because I pose more questions than I do answers.

The reason you are not getting many responses is that ATS is flooded, mostly with garbage.

Well, ATS is not really the best place necessarily to discuss larger philosophical issues, or issues that are not better defined.

This is a philosophical topic that has more to do with the art/science of semantics than anything else. Communication between two people (or animals, I suppose, if you're talking about the meaning of scents and stuff like that) with different points of view that lead to a common understanding. The trick, of course, is that since no two people have exactly the same experiences, the understanding will always be flawed and approximate. Another topic here might be the way communication defines individuality by noting the differences experienced in partially shared, theoretically identical concepts.

Also, the tendency is to use bigger and bigger words in an attempt to describe communication and the underlying philosophy, even though the activity itself is essentially wordless, thus implying or suggesting an even greater distortion and inaccuracy in meaning brought about by the discussion.

Originally posted by indierockalien
I've been thinking very deeply about consciousness and the soul and matters of the mind a lot lately.

There is one apple but for purposes of more detailed examination and variety, lets seperate the apple into three parts: seed, skin and the juicy fruit in between.

IT seems that the real thing wrong with religions is that they teach separation.

There is one apple but for purposes of more detailed examination and variety, lets seperate the apple into three parts: seed, skin and the juicy fruit in between.

So, back to my original point. If everything is one.....and the illusion of separation is just another shade in the spectrum..... then what really matters?

There is one apple but for purposes of more detailed examination and variety, lets seperate the apple into three parts: seed, skin and the juicy fruit in between.

If everything is one, and all separation is just an illusion, isn't that a lonely thought?

There is one apple but for purposes of more detailed examination and variety, lets seperate the apple into three parts: seed, skin and the juicy fruit in between.

What I really wanna know is, what is the purpose of one? where's the purpose after the illusion of what our idea of purpose is fades?

Life has the meaning you give to it. Consciousness is all there is.



[edit on 27-2-2008 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating and post by Nohup

I can't tell if you guys are poets or cynics, or both. I think it is one of the above three options. Pretty sure. Anyway, we have a couple of stars.

I want to disagree with one thing, Nohup -- semantics, consciousness, and philosophy are the ultimate topics of ATS, and my favorites. Although they may not be so "secretive", they are definitely "above".

Deny ignorance (and so forth.)

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by indierockalien
I've been thinking very deeply about consciousness and the soul and matters of the mind a lot lately.

There is one apple but for purposes of more detailed examination and variety, lets seperate the apple into three parts: seed, skin and the juicy fruit in between.

Well, see, there's the biggest problem. Consciousness is not a fruit of any kind, including an apple. Analogy is the problem, not the solution. What we're talking about is an inherent reality not associated with words. For the most part, in our minds, we define things according to what we call them. A book, a computer screen, etc. We even call these things by name in our own thoughts. The question as I see it is, is there an underlying actual reality of the existence of things that is separate from our intellectual capacity to define them (i.e., give them meaning?). Then, taking the question one step further, does our "consciousness" exist without it defining itself as such?

Having been knocked unconscious a few times, I suggest that unless I am here to experience reality from my point of view, it doesn't exist. One of the primary, necessary components it lacks when I'm unconscious is "time." However, because there are other people working to keep reality relatively stable, I can lose consciousness once in a while but come back to a reality that is apparently (from my limited perceptions) coherent and consistent with the way it was before I regained my consciousness.

I have not, however, lost consciousness to the point where I never returned to it (died). At that point, I suspect that reality will entirely cease to exist, everything will lose its meaning, and I'll be dead. Not yet, though.

I do get what you mean, Skyfloating, but think of this thing that is everything....and wonder "How many times do you have to examine an apple before it's just lunacy?"

Maybe the reason is because every time the apple is opened, you find something new, in addition to everything else..... like each time you open up a storybook and read it through, there is another page added.

Trust me, logic and proportions have fallen sloppy dead. I just... can't find logic in reason anymore. Nor can I find reason in logic.

It's a neverending search for "something else"... and I've run out of words to be able to iterate what this is....

I have mental images, and I have a weird feeling that fibonacci spirals and fractals have a lot to do with what's underlying our reality... but the dots are not connected from here to there. I saw the source, but didn't see the length it took to get to here... so...

It just seems that we're in a giant timespace chaos computer..... or like a sort of superdimensional random number generator... and if all of this stuff that make up the ISness is just random chaos that coalesces into mathematically precise patterns..... it boggles my mind. I just don't even get the point of attempting to talk scientifically about something that seems just so....

Where the HELL is Michiu Kaku when you need him? or that guy that wrote the book CHAOS. I glanced at it once a long time ago...and didn't understand a lick of it at the time... but maybe I should re read that book. It seems to have some relevance, but it's too sciencey for me. I don't crunch numbers or memorize dictionaries.

I'm a DIY philosopher.

Originally posted by Nohup

Well, see, there's the biggest problem. Consciousness is not a fruit of any kind, including an apple.

aint never said it was I aint.

Well, see, there's the biggest problem. Consciousness is not a fruit of any kind, including an apple.

Consciousness observes the apple but also includes the apple, is the apple, is not the apple.

Well, see, there's the biggest problem. Consciousness is not a fruit of any kind, including an apple.

But life is a juicy fruit, wouldnt you agree?

Analogy is the problem, not the solution. What we're talking about is an inherent reality not associated with words. For the most part, in our minds, we define things according to what we call them. A book, a computer screen, etc. We even call these things by name in our own thoughts. The question as I see it is, is there an underlying actual reality of the existence of things that is separate from our intellectual capacity to define them (i.e., give them meaning?). Then, taking the question one step further, does our "consciousness" exist without it defining itself as such?

Good questions!

At that point, I suspect that reality will entirely cease to exist, everything will lose its meaning, and I'll be dead. Not yet, though.

Opinion-Piece: Consciousness does not cease to exist as consciousness is not limited to the body. Your eyes are limited to the body. They stick to the body. Loss of body = loss of physical eyes. But consciousness is not that sticky. While it loves to hang around the brain, it can also re-locate to the tree across the street.

There are two topics that relate to your excellent question(s). Preferring the simplest answers to complicated questions, I propose they are;

[imo]

mankind and nature.

Meaning is derived from successful experience within nature . Nature places no value on any one species over another, so the species must either win in the struggle or die. It was our prominent ability to think rather than just react, that set us apart from the animal kingdom. I'm not saying animals don't choose... they do, but it is mostly instinctive. We are just better thinkers.

In the earliest era of our existence, we were forced to 'band together' in order to frustrate the attempts by carnivores to kill and eat us. Families stuck close together, protected their young, joined forces with other families and thus created tribes. This was an effective means to control the predation which must have been widespread since the animal kingdom had absolute power and sway in the land.

As time went on, tribes also became dependent on this co-oporative effort to hunt and gather food for communal living.

Togetherness was the first idea that had meaning.

As the tribes grew, the next struggle was with weather phenomenon. Changes in climate, either through migration or weather events required us to work together to build protection. The old idea that early man all lived in caves presupposes that there were caves everywhere, which is really not the case, especially if the tribe was nomadic. Temporary or permanent shelter from threatening weather became a priority.

Tribes became good at building shelters against the elements, which in turn added further protection from the predation of carnivores.

Sanctuary became the second idea that had meaning.

All well and good, but here is where things started getting complicated;

Social structure was needed in order to 'organise' the work of sanctuary. Tribal leaders were chosen to take control of the work and workers and they would be chosen from those who had 'ideas', since the thinkers had proven to be of the most benefit. These were the shaman. It was not the biggest and the meanest, for they would eventually cause problems, it was the smartest who would be chosen to lead.

Social structure became the third idea that had meaning.

For the rest of our history, these three 'ideas' were of utmost importance and can be translated right into the modern 'idea' of Homeland Security.

Government, religion, extended family are all derived from those initial eureka moments in the dawn of our age.

ie...trading goods were also extensions of the 'idea' of togetherness which eventually built the nations we have today.

So, in a nutshell... there is only mankind and nature. The things that have real meaning to us are those ideas which protect us from the threats which nature has always presented and will always continue to, whether on this planet or in the furthest reaches of our universe.

So, the importance of 'meaning' is relative the importance of an 'idea' in that it supports our survival, either personally or to the entire human race.

The things which can be called the 'monkey wrenches' in the gears of our survival are greed, stupidity, anger, laziness, jealosy, deceit and all the other spoilers you can think of that force us down a wrong-headed path (ie the Third Reich).

There are many other 'ideas' that have meaning, but they are of lesser importance than the initial three.

[/imo]

reply to post by indierockalien


Meaningless can be used as a cause for depression or as a cause for creative enjoyment...depending on definition.

What do you think?

reply to post by masqua


Ive never read such an interesting definition of where "Homeland Security" comes from.

Logic is just as schizophrenic as schizophrenia. To pretend like anything makes sense is a complete farce. We have no idea why all of this stuff is here. We ask "Why is this stuff here", and we're given answers by mainly the well funded scientists that basically run along the lines of telling us things we already know, just in greater and greater complexity. I didn't ask "What is the exact equation used by Einsten to figure out the theory of general relativity, and can you explain to me the mechanics of....?"

No, I asked "Why is this stuff here?"

I asked a question that consisted of five letters. Yet a scientist can write his whole career, pages and pages of dictation as to how the mechanics work and all that, but still SOMEHOW, in his whole career has not been able to answerr a simple five word question. Sometimes I think science just likes to skirt around the truth with a bunch of convoluted explanations that make them seem holier than thou, like us laymen are just never gunna be able to understand the answer because we don't know how to pass a physics exam.


Science....religion....society.....politics..... it's all madness. There really seems to be no logic to anything, just patterns out of chaos that coalesce and look good, so we call those patterns that we see the way it is.

Science is like a throw rug that looks pretty, covering a trapdoor which leads us into Alice's Wonderland...where lunacy is normality. Where not making any sense, where having no meaning, having no point, no reason, makes perfect sense.

I just sometimes feel like a helpless foetus trapped inside my own labarynth, which bears no exits, nor entrances, just a bunch of pathways, which lead to other pathways, which lead to dead ends, and then when you turn around to figure out where it is you came from, the path has completely changed while your back was turned.

I guess thinking about it is kind of like feeding the flame of pointless endeavors. Either way, you will go with the flow of it all. Maybe it's better just to sit and watch as this thing in front of us unfolds, and to just be satisfied with the fact that you're watching a very cool stageshow with plenty of holograms, smoke, and mirrors.

Originally posted by indierockalien
Maybe it's better just to sit and watch as this thing in front of us unfolds, and to just be satisfied with the fact that you're watching a very cool stageshow with plenty of holograms, smoke, and mirrors.

But the options are limitless. Sit back and watch. Stand up and participate. Make some smoke and mirrors yourself. Contribute something nice to the world.

Or do as masqua suggested: Get a spouse and house.

The way I see it is this:

The classic ideal of consciousness "I think therefore I am" is known associated within your head. It can be addressed as spiritual consciousness. Meanwhile your soul has a consciousness of it's own associated in the heart area. It's more like your "inner child" and the consciouness of a child like mind. However children are really quite perceptive when it comes to understandings, and thus you should use your soul's consciousness to know the spirit of truth.