The Social Taboo of Criticizing Radical Islam

reply to post by Freeborn


That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. However the apathy isn't exclusively because of the reasons you described. Maybe it is in the more authoritarian states in the ME, but doubtful it is as strong a reason in your country or other western/developed nations -- immigration issues are a more likely case. Something worth exploring. Now let me explain why the sentiment is "why bother?" by comparing it to other issues with different groups of people who share that sort of sentiment.

Let's take atheists for example. How many times do people of faith say something along the lines of "the atheists are trying to overthrow the faith"? How many times an atheist has to defend their position by saying "no, and we aren't one collective group out to get you"?

Or how about Jews. How many times do people say "the Jews control the world"? How many times do they have to say "we're just normal people like you."

Christianity (this is for you, Ashley). How many times have slanders of their religion come up so much so that Ashley has a unique signature so as to avoid having to repeat herself again and again ad infinitum? (creative way of avoiding having to repeat yourself though, Ash )

Now move away from religion and go towards other topics. Take anthropogenic global warming for example. How many times people say "no such thing, it's cycles." How many times do proponents have to explain "yes, it's cycles, but human are affecting the current cycle"?

Or take the issue of the meaning of theory in science. How many people say it's just a theory (whatever the theory in question may be)? How many times do scientists have to explain the difference between 'scientific theory' and everyday theory/speculation?

Contrails. How many times do people claim they are government experiments? How many times people have to explain the reason there are more of it is because there is more air-travel today?

After explaining for the n-millionth time, people get jaded and figure "ah phooey. Why bother? I've gone through this argument so many times with hardly an effect. It's like I'm talking to a brick wall here."

Time is finite. We can't be talking about the same thing over and over again, day-in day-out. It gets tedious, boring, tiresome and one ultimately feels it is a waste of time.

That is the apathy I'm talking about. It's the same with this issue (Muslims criticising the problems in their ranks). The sense of "sheet-metal, it's hopeless. People will continue believing what they want to despite evidence to the contrary. F it all."

Edit: Sigh... why is it that spelling/grammar mistakes are only noticed after posting and not during preview?

[edit on 28/2/2008 by Beachcoma]

HAS IT EVER REALLY BEEN TABOO THROUH HISTORY ?


Winston Churchill
Just a couple of good Winston Churchill quotes (hat tip: Islamophobic):
Freedom of Speech:
"Everyone is in favour of free speech," remarked Churchill. "Hardly a day passes without its being extolled. But some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like - but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."
Islam:
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."
"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Winston Churchill

A couple of pages ago Raze87 mentioned Muslims and English people. There isnt a country on this planet that isnt Muslim that can tell you more about Muslim People than England. Churchill knew a lot about them if not more than anybody in history. After WW2 who was it that divided up the ME into what it mostly is today. Was it not England that was in the ME for 20 to 30 years after the division of the ME doing exactly what America is doing now. I read a article a week ago on whatdoesitmean.com Princewilliams brother had a rare interview touching on this subject saying why didnt America talk to them about the Me before the war. They where experts on it after doing the same thing we did a long time ago have they changed since then? I was actually looking for a quote by Churchill saying how much good english blood are we going to loose in the ME before we get out of there.

reply to post by tarichar


It is good to see that there is some common ground.

What is happening in Turkey can only be commended.
Unfortunately the majority of Muslims in the UK are of rural Pakistani descent and as such any advancements made in Turkey is likely to have little or o effect here.

The idea of a "Muslims against Terrorism" movement is excellent and could only benefit everyone concerned.
Gain the support of some high profile Muslims.
Demonstrations would be visual and would demand the attention of MSM.
Defanition of terrorism?
Yes, bit of a tricky one.
I'm sure some sort of movement statement or charter could be agreed and drafted with a little bit of thought and consideration.

I would like to see it happen, and would support it in any way I could.
I just suspect the support would be minimal.
However, from small acorns and all that.....

reply to post by Beachcoma


First of all Beach, thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately you maybe understimating the issue here in the UK.
Large proportions of the Muslim communities are extremely devout in their beliefs.
Yes, there is an element of Westernization buit it is a slow and gradual process.
I would be very naive if I thought there were no racial issues but I suspect there is a genuine dislike and distrust of "Western" lifestyles which helps breed an element of sympathy for these extremists.

Look at the number of home grown terrorists we have bred, nearly all of whom have been educated people.
Can anyone believe, hand on heart, that these people went about their daily business, inter-acted with all their families, friends, colleagues etc and not once has anyone turned around and said they noticed anything?
I find that hard to believe.
So why did no-one report them?
Why did everyone turn a blind eye?
I can only assume, (and as with any assumption I could easily be wrong), because people either condoned their activities, or were afraid to speak out for fear of reprisal's or out of some mis-guided code of loyalty.

But then when quizzed afterwards the stock responses are;
"I didn't know nothing"
"He's such a good boy"
"They wouldn't have done it if you hadn't done (insert any of a number of things)"

Muslims have to start taking responsibility for themselves.
The majority of Muslims are good, honest, hard working people who just want to get on with their lives the same as the rest of us.
It's about time they started showing it to the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Freeborn
But then when quizzed afterwards the stock responses are;
"I didn't know nothing"
"He's such a good boy"
"They wouldn't have done it if you hadn't done (insert any of a number of things)"

Isn't that the same sort of responses you get from people who know terrorists of other causes? Also the same sort of responses for those who knew people who run amok shooting up schools before they kill themselves.

Notice a connection? People snap (and it usually has a lot to do with being jaded with society). As much as it is the perpetrators fault, society as a whole can be blamed, too. Singling out a particular section of society is not looking at the problem as a whole. In fact it is contrary to taking responsibility, as you put it, since it's still pointing the finger at the other direction.

Stop the blame game. Stop inciting hate and polarisation. Preach integration and assimilation. I've mentioned this numerous times already, it's not an overnight process. In fact it may even be up to the following generation.

Check this out: what they're doing in Northern Ireland.
Irish Catholic and Protestant Children Come Together at GCO Summer Camp for fun and Lessons in Tolerance.

Wonderful idea, isn't it? Younger people are more likely to change their mindsets than older folk.

Beachoma



Help me with this please since you are from the UK. Is what I read and posted about England controlling a majority of the ME after WW2 true? They where there for twenty or so years correct doing the same thing America is know doing in Iraq. I have also read that Churchill was a expert on Muslims. He wrote about them in his books quite a bit from what I understand.

reply to post by goblue


Sorry, but I'm not from the UK. I am from a former British colony, though.

As for Churchill being an expert on Muslims, I don't know anything about that. I do know that a lot of non-muslims appear to be experts on Islam though, as you can see on these boards

reply to post by Beachcoma


Beach, the last thing I wish to do is preach or incite hatred.

I agree in tegration is a great tool in breaking down barriers.
Unfortunately, it is Muslims in the UK who choose not to integrate.
The only place some people meet other's of different creeds is at school.
In years to come we may reap the benefits from this policy.

Beach, I know it's hard with the "POST" facility still unavailable but I should respectfully point out that I am a firm and vocal supporter of the great efforts and advancements that have greatly improved the situation in Ireland.
The Middle East could learn a lot from the peace process in Ireland.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Unfortunately, it is Muslims in the UK who choose not to integrate.

With all that ifs, buts, howevers and miscellaneous passing-the-buck, I'm not too surprised. I would say bugger it all myself if whatever I do I get blamed yet again.

Social Taboo for sure!

Take the Danish Toons, please. [rimshot]

I wonder if criticizing Radical Islam using self-deprecating humor will get these Muslim Comics in trouble.

WARNING: Muslim comedy is so dangerously funny, you'll die laughing?

reply to post by Beachcoma


Your missing the point I think Beach,
I live here and see it every day.

I really don't mean to apportion ALL the blame to Muslims, Britain's hands are covered in blood, but the vast majority of Muslims just seem not to accept ANY responsibility at all.

Anyway, I think I've knocked the arse out of this for the time being.
I think we may have to gracefully agree to disagree.

This portion at the bottom of my post if the quote I postedand what makes it taboo to me. It means alot of things doesnt it. I am a 28 year old American who is a very curious person and like to learn new things. I have done some reading trying to understand Muslims and why they are what they are and do what they do. I am trying to understand what there religion does for the good of the world and tried to make it a topic either I did it wrong or I think it is maybe to taboo of a subject. Hmm. How does a religion benefit the world when it is so defensive you cant say anything about it because it would be taboo and incite hate and violence for saying the wrong thing. When does religion tell you to do unto others you wouldnt want done to you. Does any body wonder what they say to thier young girls in some of there strict nations. How do you tell your child you cant be anything in life but a servant to a man and nothing else. You are but a dowry,This is very baffling to me. I hope I am not getting to taboo I better stop being so curious.




Everyone is in favour of free speech," remarked Churchill. "Hardly a day passes without its being extolled. But some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like - but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."

Originally posted by goblue

How do you tell your child you cant be anything in life but a servant to a man and nothing else. You are but a dowry,This is very baffling to me. I hope I am not getting to taboo I better stop being so curious.

Because it's their culture.
It's all they know, after centuries of the practice it is engrained into them. Which is one of the reasons they react so strongly when people say it doesn't have to be like that.
Yes, it's abhorent to us but they, understanderbly, see it as an attack on the very fabric of their society.

Is there a Social Taboo of Criticizing Radical Islam

Yes.
In the media.
Within islam.
Outside islam.
Sounds like good ol' fear to me.

But not in the cloaked anonymity of the internet. Where the sword of Damocles doesn't hang over your head for speaking.

Once somebody takes on the bully in the schoolyard, it'll be exposed as the 10th century backwards cult it really is.
And then when lumped in with rest of the religions of the world... ready for some serious criticism from inside and out. Just like the rest of 'em(religions).

And until someone from inside islam speaks out against them, they are all radical AFAIC. Guilt by association, accessories to terrorism, clean their own house or someone sends for exterminators.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Beachcoma

 

First of all Beach, thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately you maybe understimating the issue here in the UK.
Large proportions of the Muslim communities are extremely devout in their beliefs.
Yes, there is an element of Westernization buit it is a slow and gradual process.
I would be very naive if I thought there were no racial issues but I suspect there is a genuine dislike and distrust of "Western" lifestyles which helps breed an element of sympathy for these extremists.

Muslims have to start taking responsibility for themselves.
The majority of Muslims are good, honest, hard working people who just want to get on with their lives the same as the rest of us.
It's about time they started showing it to the rest of the world.

What do you want the liberal muslims to do to tackle the radical problems?

No matter how liberal a Muslim is they will all agree on the following points:

-Sharia Law
-Democracy,liberalism,secularism are all man made laws (Thus will conflict with Gods laws) therefore not a good thing
-Jihad (spiritual),war (defending)
-West is against Muslims
-Jew (zionists) are evil because they wana kill all the Muslims
-Being liberal is following satans way,following islam is the true way

And if the normal hard working getting on with their life Muslims agree with all the above than what do you want them to do against the radicals?

Call MI5 ??

You mentioned about Turkey.They don't have NO influence at all as it was because of them the Islamic state was ended in 1924.They are the so called modern muslims who keep bringing changes in Islam so that it looks good to the West and overall the European union excepts them.

So the Turkys are out the picture

My mate Freeborn what you want the normal Muslims to do is Never Ever gona happen.So no point bickering about the normal Muslims VS the Radicals.

The only way to tackle the problem is that we will have to support the Chav population to take care of the radicals

Originally posted by Freeborn
Your missing the point I think Beach,
I live here and see it every day.

Hell no. I see the point clearly. You've said the same thing repeatedly. I understand where you are coming from, and as much as the Muslims in your country are to blame, I see it as more of an immigration issue and how society is alienating the immigrants with finger-pointing. We have the same sort of integration issues in my country, but replace Pakistanis with Filipinos. Replace whatever other non-muslim immigrant in your country with Indonesians in mine. Not too long ago we used to pin all the problems in our country on Indonesian immigrants. We used the same arguments too, that the bulk of them didn't want to take responsibility for integrating. That method didn't work, as it pushed them further away from becoming part of society.

I've tried various approaches to make you understand that society is dynamic, fluid and organic. It's not just bits and pieces that are independent of one another. Each element interacts with the other and affects the actions and influences the mindset of one another. It's all about communication, by your words and actions.

Communication is transactional and reciprocal and if what you are doing now doesn't work, try something else. It takes two to tango and the meaning of your communication is the response you get. From the response I get of you, it seems that I have failed to communicate my point about the dynamics of society earlier. I hope to address that in this post.

In a way, my failure to communicate to you my points is like a microcosm of the problem you see. Failure to communicate is what is causing the integration and assimilation of immigrants. To put it all on the immigrants themselves is not the way forward. You have these people who come into your country and are not mixing in with society. Problem number one. Then you have the citizen of your country alienating these immigrants by blaming all (or most) of society's troubles on them. That's problem number two.

To solve this you have to look at both sides of the issue and amend the attitudes on both sides. Start a dialogue of understanding instead of both sides pointing the finger. (That is why I posted that link to the situation between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland) If one side isn't accepting their responsibility in the matter, how is the other side to accept theirs? If both sides do not want to understand where the other is coming from, how can dialogue even begin? It's a give and take process and it won't happen overnight.

Pinning the blame on all (or even "the vast majority" as you put it) is hardly productive. The end result isn't going to be perfect. There will still be some latent hostility and distrust (just like in my country, where there is residual distrust of Indonesians) but over time it will give way to full assimilation.

Edit to add: Basically what I'm saying is that an "us versus them" approach will never work. Start using a "we Britons" approach. By the way, do you have a Ministry of National Unity and Social Development there in the UK like we do here in Malaysia? If no, then maybe you should.

[edit on 29/2/2008 by Beachcoma]

Originally posted by Beachcoma


That is the apathy I'm talking about. It's the same with this issue (Muslims criticising the problems in their ranks). The sense of "sheet-metal, it's hopeless. People will continue believing what they want to despite evidence to the contrary. F it all."


[edit on 28/2/2008 by Beachcoma]

Absolutely! It is very frustrating though to see such ignorance in the face of tomes of evidence. However, when that ignorance affects others I think we have to speak up. This is why religious extremism (of any faith) is bad. Unfortunately for Islam their brand of extremism is very extreme and puts my childrens lives at risk, since there is no specific target for those extremists. Likewise I get agitated about global warming since its my children and grandchildren who have to live with the consequences of our actions.

So "F it all" is an understandable response to the ignorance at times BUT we can't let such ignornace win ..... can we?

reply to post by Freeborn


Do you know the actual break down of the origins of Muslims in the UK? I live in Bradford at the moment, whilst there are clear inter-community problems its more of a matter of lack of economic prospects and opportunities, coupled with the difficulties of a conservative rural culture integrating into an industrial western city. Generally Islam in Bradford is little more than a thoughtless process that is attended to every friday, without explanation as to what it means or represents. I have friends who are of egyptian and iranian decent and they abandoned going to mosque when they came to bradford because of the sermons

A further point is, if we are to expect muslims to condemn the terrorist attacks committed by Al-Qaida then the West must under go some kind of reflection as to what are the motivations of the group (and affiliates).

reply to post by dbates


ok, you attacked the icing of my post but not the meat of it.

the main point i made was on the refrain you repeatedly here that moderates don't criticize radical islam

and honestly, the PC thing to do is to simply not lump all muslims together with radical islam

some people see this as it being about not criticizing islam in general.

Originally posted by tarichar
reply to post by Freeborn

 

How can there be collective responsibility when there is no collective, the idea of an international Umah is a fabrication and only exists in the fantastical imaginations of the very extremists who you wish condemned.

This is the exact sort of thing I was speaking about. This poster doesn't know what he's talking about.

While he is correct in saying that there is no one who can speak for all of Islam... The Ulama or the body of the faithful has been a very important concept thoughout Islamic history. In essence within Islam (as I understand it) there is no seperation of church and state, that for the faithful there is no salvation outside the body of the faithful or the ulama and that it is important for the state to act as part of that body... to act fairly, take care of the poor etc.

After the fall of the empires, Turkish, British etc. The Arab states were encouraged to form secular governments... Nassur in Egypt, Assaid in Syria etc. are prime examples of what happened... the well being of the party became paramount and the poor and disenfranchised were brushed aside. It is exactly this sort of situition that led in Egypt to the creation of the Islamic Brotherhood and the push for the establishment of Islamic republics. These "fundmentalists" wanted to live within the framework of Islam, not the framework of a corrupt secular state. And, who are we to gainsay them? As a consequence a conflict arose within Islam between those who want to live in an Islamic state and those whodon't.

The end result is Al Qeada which is directly descended from the Islamic Brotherhood.

By the way Shirra law is supposed to apply only to the faithful, NOT to non-Muslims.